GnuPG binding?

GnuPG binding?

[Preben Randhol]

I searched the net to see if anybody have made Ada bindings to GnuPG and
there seems like there may be a binding somewhere, although I only find
references and no actual binding.

So I was only wondering if anybody here knew of/have made a binding?

Thanks in advance.

Preben Randhol

Re: GnuPG binding?

[Andreas Almroth]

Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnb7gana.19o.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no>...
> I searched the net to see if anybody have made Ada bindings to GnuPG and
> there seems like there may be a binding somewhere, although I only find
> references and no actual binding.
> 
> So I was only wondering if anybody here knew of/have made a binding?
> 

I have written a binding to GPGME, which is the preferred API for
GnuPG (according to the GnuPG team).

If there is interest I will make it available to interested parties.
I have bindings to both the 0.3.x and the 0.4.x versions of GPGME.

> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Preben Randhol

/Andreas

Re: GnuPG binding?

[Preben Randhol]

Andreas Almroth wrote:

> I have written a binding to GPGME, which is the preferred API for
> GnuPG (according to the GnuPG team).
> 
> If there is interest I will make it available to interested parties.
> I have bindings to both the 0.3.x and the 0.4.x versions of GPGME.

I'm interested. What licence do you use?

Preben

Re: GnuPG binding?

[Andreas Almroth]

Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnb7j3po.ja.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no>...
> Andreas Almroth wrote:
> 
> > I have written a binding to GPGME, which is the preferred API for
> > GnuPG (according to the GnuPG team).
> > 
> > If there is interest I will make it available to interested parties.
> > I have bindings to both the 0.3.x and the 0.4.x versions of GPGME.
> 
> I'm interested. What licence do you use?
> 
> Preben

The license is GPL with the usual exception for generics...
adagpgme-0.4.0 is available at http://www.almroth.com/adagpgme-0.4.0.tar.gz

/Andreas

Re: GnuPG binding?

[Preben Randhol]

Andreas Almroth wrote:
> 
> The license is GPL with the usual exception for generics...
> adagpgme-0.4.0 is available at http://www.almroth.com/adagpgme-0.4.0.tar.gz

Thanks

Preben

AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Andreas Almroth]

Hi all,

As there was some interest a couple of months back in an Ada binding to
GnuPG, I thought I should let you know that there is a new version
available at http://www.almroth.com/gpgme.

The new version is 0.4.1 and reflects the major changes thas has been
made to the C API. I have also added a binding to gpg-error which is now
used by gpgme.

For further information on changes, I recommend reading the NEWS file in
the gpgme-0.4.1 distribution.

New with this release is that GnuPG 1.2.2 must be used, as well as the new
error-handling library gpg-error-0.1.

I'm still porting the regression tests, so if you find issues, bugs or
just have general comments, please contact me (remove the obvious part
from my email address).

Well, that's all folks...

Cheers,
Andreas

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Preben Randhol]

Andreas Almroth wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> As there was some interest a couple of months back in an Ada binding to
> GnuPG, I thought I should let you know that there is a new version
> available at http://www.almroth.com/gpgme.

Nice! Could you please make and archive that one could download either
zip or tar. Now all I find are html files which are a bit tricky to use.

Keep it up!

Preben
-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Andreas Almroth]

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:29:45 +0000, Preben Randhol wrote:

> Andreas Almroth wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> As there was some interest a couple of months back in an Ada binding to
>> GnuPG, I thought I should let you know that there is a new version
>> available at http://www.almroth.com/gpgme.
> 
> Nice! Could you please make and archive that one could download either
> zip or tar. Now all I find are html files which are a bit tricky to use.
> 
> Keep it up!
> 
> Preben

Well, I guess in the excitement of writing the posting, I forgot to
mention the url for the file, doh...

http://www.almroth.com/adagpgme-0.4.1.tar.gz

Thanks for pointing it out.

Cheers,
Andreas

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Preben Randhol]

Andreas Almroth wrote:
> Well, I guess in the excitement of writing the posting, I forgot to
> mention the url for the file, doh...
> 
> http://www.almroth.com/adagpgme-0.4.1.tar.gz

Could you also link this from the page so that others who don't see this
announcement here can find it?

Preben
-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Martin Krischik]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> Andreas Almroth wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> As there was some interest a couple of months back in an Ada binding to
>> GnuPG, I thought I should let you know that there is a new version
>> available at http://www.almroth.com/gpgme.
 
> Nice! Could you please make and archive that one could download either
> zip or tar. Now all I find are html files which are a bit tricky to use.

My I suggest ww.sourceforge.net to avoid this kind of problems. Service
there is great -  and you never forget the download link since it is done
automaticly.

With Regards.

Martin
-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
http://www.ada.krischik.com

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Preben Randhol]

Martin Krischik wrote:
> 
> My I suggest ww.sourceforge.net to avoid this kind of problems. Service
> there is great -  and you never forget the download link since it is done
> automaticly.

Yes and as an alternative you also have http://savannah.gnu.org/
although the savannah name is hopless to remember.

Preben
-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Andreas Almroth]

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:23:53 +0000, Preben Randhol wrote:

> Martin Krischik wrote:
>> 
>> My I suggest ww.sourceforge.net to avoid this kind of problems. Service
>> there is great -  and you never forget the download link since it is done
>> automaticly.
> 
> Yes and as an alternative you also have http://savannah.gnu.org/
> although the savannah name is hopless to remember.
> 
> Preben

I had a look at sourceforge.net, as well as savannah, and my first feeling
was that I don't think I will bother with registring due to the policies
and license issues.
I will instead make sure, if I ever again announce an update, that all
links are in place, as well as correct information.

This aside, I hope you can find use for the binding, and I would
appreciate if you could drop me an email with success stories, bad
experiences or so using the binding.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Preben Randhol]

Andreas Almroth wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:23:53 +0000, Preben Randhol wrote:
> 
>> Martin Krischik wrote:
>>> 
>>> My I suggest ww.sourceforge.net to avoid this kind of problems. Service
>>> there is great -  and you never forget the download link since it is done
>>> automaticly.
>> 
>> Yes and as an alternative you also have http://savannah.gnu.org/
>> although the savannah name is hopless to remember.
>> 
>> Preben
> 
> I had a look at sourceforge.net, as well as savannah, and my first feeling
> was that I don't think I will bother with registring due to the policies
> and license issues.
> I will instead make sure, if I ever again announce an update, that all
> links are in place, as well as correct information.

But please register it on www.freshmeat.net This is just a repository
for announcements and it makes life so much easier to find differnet Ada
libraries that are all over the world on some small homepage that might
or might not turn up in a google search.

> This aside, I hope you can find use for the binding, and I would
> appreciate if you could drop me an email with success stories, bad
> experiences or so using the binding.

Yes, as soon as I have time to try them out.

Preben
-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Randy Brukardt]

Preben Randhol wrote in message ...
>Andreas Almroth wrote:
>> I had a look at sourceforge.net, as well as savannah, and my first
feeling
>> was that I don't think I will bother with registring due to the
policies
>> and license issues.
>> I will instead make sure, if I ever again announce an update, that
all
>> links are in place, as well as correct information.
>
>But please register it on www.freshmeat.net This is just a repository
>for announcements and it makes life so much easier to find differnet
Ada
>libraries that are all over the world on some small homepage that might
>or might not turn up in a google search.


Even better, send us a note at the AdaIC (webmaster@adaic.com), so it
gets added to our links pages and to our "Ada-wide" search engine.
(http://www.adaic.com/site/wide-search.html). Our intent is that
everything Ada related be indexed there.

           Randy Brukardt
           Technical Webmaster, AdaIC.org/.com

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Preben Randhol]

Randy Brukardt wrote:
> Even better, send us a note at the AdaIC (webmaster@adaic.com), so it
> gets added to our links pages and to our "Ada-wide" search engine.
> (http://www.adaic.com/site/wide-search.html). Our intent is that
> everything Ada related be indexed there.

Ah great. I'll add it to my links.

Preben
-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Georg Bauhaus]

Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
: Preben Randhol wrote:
: 
:> Andreas Almroth wrote:
:>> Hi all,
:>> 
:>> As there was some interest a couple of months back in an Ada binding to
:>> GnuPG, I thought I should let you know that there is a new version
:>> available at http://www.almroth.com/gpgme.
: 
:> Nice! Could you please make and archive that one could download either
:> zip or tar. Now all I find are html files which are a bit tricky to use.
: 
: My I suggest ww.sourceforge.net to avoid this kind of problems. Service
: there is great -  and you never forget the download link since it is done
: automaticly.

I would like to to add that giving to source forge could be made an
alternative, but not a replacement. Please keep the WWW a *net*work
of computers, stay in control of your software, take care of it 
yourselves, not just of program text. And provide good
linking, which is the art of hypertext. Don't be lazy here,
it helps us all, and reduces load on google :-)

Otherwise one gets the effect of one service being in control
of everything, which might turn out to be good or bad, sufficient
of deficient, dependable or not. Watch the new copyright efforts,
they might affect both you and your software, depending on where
and how it is published.
(After all, the existence of the savannah server is illustrative of
this.)

Seize your opportunities to stay independent.
Make your WWW emerge from self-incurred portality.
If I have sourceforge to organize my archives, "If I have a book to have
   understanding in place of me, a spiritual adviser to have a conscience
   for me, a doctor to judge my diet for me, and so on, I need not make
   any efforts at all. I need not think, so long as I can pay; others
   will soon enough take the tiresome job over for me."
                              -- I. Kant, What is Enlightenment

Georg
thinking that Dawn might be a nice replacement for Enlightenment

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Preben Randhol]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> I would like to to add that giving to source forge could be made an
> alternative, but not a replacement. Please keep the WWW a *net*work
> of computers, stay in control of your software, take care of it 
> yourselves, not just of program text. And provide good
> linking, which is the art of hypertext. Don't be lazy here,
> it helps us all, and reduces load on google :-)

Yes I have the same reservations as you to sourceforge.net etc...
However WWW is a *net*work, but lately it is more *work* than net to
find the pages you want. Goggle and others gives so much noise when you
search. So register your software at places like www.freshmeat.net
and www.yahoo.com so it is easier to find it.

www.freshmeat.net is a repository where you do announcements of
software, updates etc... You do not supply your software there only
links to your page.


> Seize your opportunities to stay independent.
> Make your WWW emerge from self-incurred portality.
> If I have sourceforge to organize my archives, "If I have a book to have
>    understanding in place of me, a spiritual adviser to have a conscience
>    for me, a doctor to judge my diet for me, and so on, I need not make
>    any efforts at all. I need not think, so long as I can pay; others
>    will soon enough take the tiresome job over for me."
>                               -- I. Kant, What is Enlightenment

Sure but you cannot be all above yourself. I mean you would have to
consult a doctor to get a diagnosis, but it is your choice if you agree
with the doctor to get an operation etc... So if you have a homepage
yourself you can use it, but if you don't you may consider other places
like sourceforge or savannah.

Preben
-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
: Georg Bauhaus wrote:
:>  And provide good
:> linking, which is the art of hypertext. Don't be lazy here,
:> it helps us all, and reduces load on google :-)
: 
: Yes I have the same reservations as you to sourceforge.net etc...
: However WWW is a *net*work, but lately it is more *work* than net to
: find the pages you want. Goggle and others gives so much noise when you
: search. So register your software at places like www.freshmeat.net
: and www.yahoo.com so it is easier to find it.

This conclusion seems a bit less careful than it could be, to me.
On the one hand Google establishes useful links between texts,
and software "registries" might offer a good overview.

However, compare setting up a software related web site to organizing
your latest Ada project into packages.

- You might find that a hierarchy is useful (subdirectories and child
  packages, nesting).
- You can't do really well without some prose, formal or informal.
- You can make things private.
- You can have a number of tasks.

Now how do you set up coupling between your modules? Whichever way,
will you think about the links between the program parts?
Is this a good thing? (I think Robert Eachus has told us something
about this subject recently.)
Are there external programs that will play a role?

So on the other hand (google and software "registries" on the one hand),
if you think about
your web site like you think about your software with respect to
links, then this may give your readers more useful cross references
than are currently implied in a Google etc result listing.

Now think about the transitive closure of good hyperlinks.

Re: AdaGPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?)

[Preben Randhol]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
>: Georg Bauhaus wrote:
>:>  And provide good
>:> linking, which is the art of hypertext. Don't be lazy here,
>:> it helps us all, and reduces load on google :-)
>: 
>: Yes I have the same reservations as you to sourceforge.net etc...
>: However WWW is a *net*work, but lately it is more *work* than net to
>: find the pages you want. Goggle and others gives so much noise when you
>: search. So register your software at places like www.freshmeat.net
>: and www.yahoo.com so it is easier to find it.
> 
> This conclusion seems a bit less careful than it could be, to me.
> On the one hand Google establishes useful links between texts,
> and software "registries" might offer a good overview.

not sure I understand what you mean with "Google establishes useful
links between". But have you considered that Google is your weak link?
What if the company decided to sensor out all pages fitting a certain
criteria. Or simply 5 years from now there are so many pages that it is
extremely hard to keep track of all?

> However, compare setting up a software related web site to organizing
> your latest Ada project into packages.
> 
> - You might find that a hierarchy is useful (subdirectories and child
>   packages, nesting).
> - You can't do really well without some prose, formal or informal.
> - You can make things private.
> - You can have a number of tasks.

What is number of tasks?

But also you would have to set up some of these:

   Bugtracker
   Mailinglist
   CVS

Depending on the size of your project.

> Now how do you set up coupling between your modules? Whichever way,
> will you think about the links between the program parts?

What do you mean?

> Is this a good thing? (I think Robert Eachus has told us something
> about this subject recently.)

Where was this?

> Are there external programs that will play a role?

What has all this got to do with sourceforge f.ex? You can set up your
own homepage with just the links you want etc...

> So on the other hand (google and software "registries" on the one
> hand), if you think about your web site like you think about your
> software with respect to links, then this may give your readers more
> useful cross references than are currently implied in a Google etc
> result listing.

Yes, but one must first be able to *find* your page. Mustn't one?

> Now think about the transitive closure of good hyperlinks.

Let's see

Searching:

   Georg Bauhaus

hmm found Georg (Bauhaus) Muche doesn't seem to be correct. Found a
refence to gcc-bug list looks as the correct person, but no links from there.
OK Trying: 

Georg Bauhaus Homepage. 

No

Georg Bauhaus Ada95

ok some more mailinglists and a pdf document, link to
www.ada-deutschland.de. OK let's see there.

   http://www.iste.uni-stuttgart.de/ps/bauhaus/

hmm no.

Georg Bauhaus software

no

Georg Bauhaus software Ada

OK I give up, maybe you do not have a homepage? ;-)

I really don't understand why registering your homepage at freshmeat of
yahoo or adapower is careless?

Preben
-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:

(This text is drifting towards "writing Ada programs compared to
writing web pages", among other things.)

: not sure I understand what you mean with "Google establishes useful
: links between".

If the search for "A +B" gives results r(1..4), then there
might be a logical link between the r(k)s, because they match the
same search pattern.

: But have you considered that Google is your weak link?

(My link to interesting information? Sure, and it could have some
influence on business if Google and relatives go out of business,
for political or legal reasons for example.
(All the more we will need good links.))
 
:> However, compare setting up a software related web site to organizing
:> your latest Ada project into packages.
:> 
:> ...
:> - You can have a number of tasks.
: 
: What is number of tasks?

task A is
task B is

makes 2 tasks. In your web pages, you might have 
task "About us",
task "the famous software library"
task "the CI CSSs"
in the sense that the things to be done (written, set up) can be grouped
and treated separatedly. Though not necessarily without "rendezvous".
In fact, you could employ separate compilation ;-)

: But also you would have to set up some of these:
: 
:   Bugtracker :   Mailinglist :   CVS

In order to be competition for sourceforge, yes.
Plus if I think that for example a mailinglist is better than
group reply with permission. (Don't get me wrong, I have had
fun setting up and using a SmartList.)

Plus if I wanted to copy someone's machanisms. For example, I prefer
PRCS to CVS. At one time, we have been able to provide access to
a development system (non-intranet) via SSH, which has been much more
fun and a lot more flexible than anonymous CVS. I can do it if I
have my own Ada component library server.

 
:> Now how do you set up coupling between your modules? Whichever way,
:> will you think about the links between the program parts?
: 
: What do you mean?

See the posting by Robert Eachus on 16th of June, for coupling.
Say you have three sets of packages in your program,
and you have three subdirectories (e.g.) in your "web space",
by analogy.
Chances are that these three items have internal and external
relations, in both cases.
(calling, type use, instantiations, imports, ... in the Ada case,
links, quotes, styles, illustrations, ... in the web case.)
For example, a unit might depend on another unit.
You add a with clause.
A web page might assume required knowledge of subject X.
You add a link to another page (in another subdirectory, e.g.)
introducing subject X.

All three are also hopefully centered around some common topic.
You can have coherent Ada packages, and coherent web pages
or subdirectories thereof.
Meyer in OOSC2, Ch 22:
"All the features of a class must pertain to a single, well-identified
abstraction." (I think this is recommended for clusters, too.)
The same should be true of web pages, I think, and I always find myself
distracted by ads, links to other things that they think I should
be interested in, but am not, and more. If you, as author of a web page,
are allowed to follow the "single topic" principle, good.
The possibility is guaranteed if you are your own "web masters",
because there are no defaults and requirements other than your
own (lawful) ones.

:> Are there external programs that will play a role?
: 
: What has all this got to do with sourceforge f.ex? You can set up your
: own homepage with just the links you want etc...

Uhm, sourceforge has been suggested, iirc, to circumvent setting
up pages and links for download, and taking care of them. That is,
not having to set up your own homepage, download area, etc.

I wanted to say, mainly, that it might be better if people make an
effort at both producing good software, and also at producing an
accessible web page that sticks to the subject, which is their software,
and to really related subjects. If that can be done on sourceforge
(as it can, to some extent, see GNADE (though I am currently getting
operation timed out for the home page)), then so be it.
And if someone has the time to do it there, and if there is no
risk of loosing anything that you do not want to loose (rights,
the connection, ...), then so be it.


: Yes, but one must first be able to *find* your page. Mustn't one?

The whole point of good hyperlinking is that you won't have to
do a search, because the page is linked in context :-)

:> Now think about the transitive closure of good hyperlinks.
: 
: Let's see
: 
: Searching:

  [...]

: OK I give up, maybe you do not have a homepage? ;-)

Two, actually :-) But for now one of them might only be accessible from .de.
see www dot gelumps dot de, a tiny update to follow in some days
(Friday probably :)

: I really don't understand why registering your homepage at freshmeat of
: yahoo or adapower is careless?

I didn't mean this, I have failed at saying that a freshmeat
centered network is not the solution I would prefer to a solution
where people take care of linking their well-written contributions
to useful information. One emphasis is on taking care.


Look at how this works with component libraries in c.l.ada.
We see some of their authors discussing aspects of their
products. (Thanks for this, BTW!) On the other hand, lack of
documentation is mentioned every now and then. Now imagine a
situation where authors put their thoughts and arguments right
into web pages.  Arguments could actually contain links from pro
to con pages (perhaps not "deep down" in type descriptions, but in
introductory or prefatory notes). This might require cooperation,
and abiding by http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/

Effect: Once you are hooked into the Ada components web, you can
easily browse one library's documentation, and also move from one
library to the other. (This internal and external linking is one
reason why I was referring to coherent and coupled software modules,
I think.)


-- Georg

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Preben Randhol]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
> 
> (This text is drifting towards "writing Ada programs compared to
> writing web pages", among other things.)

I think we are talking around ourselfs :-)

>: not sure I understand what you mean with "Google establishes useful
>: links between".
> 
> If the search for "A +B" gives results r(1..4), then there
> might be a logical link between the r(k)s, because they match the
> same search pattern.

> makes 2 tasks. In your web pages, you might have 
> task "About us",
> task "the famous software library"
> task "the CI CSSs"

what about

   task "software library nobody knows of yet"

> In order to be competition for sourceforge, yes.
> Plus if I think that for example a mailinglist is better than
> group reply with permission. (Don't get me wrong, I have had
> fun setting up and using a SmartList.)

Group reply?
 
> Plus if I wanted to copy someone's machanisms. For example, I prefer
> PRCS to CVS. At one time, we have been able to provide access to
> a development system (non-intranet) via SSH, which has been much more
> fun and a lot more flexible than anonymous CVS. I can do it if I
> have my own Ada component library server.

Sure but you don't get this if the alternative is to get a free web-page
at some web-hotel.

> See the posting by Robert Eachus on 16th of June, for coupling.
> Say you have three sets of packages in your program,
> and you have three subdirectories (e.g.) in your "web space",
> by analogy.
> Chances are that these three items have internal and external
> relations, in both cases.
> (calling, type use, instantiations, imports, ... in the Ada case,
> links, quotes, styles, illustrations, ... in the web case.)
> For example, a unit might depend on another unit.
> You add a with clause.
> A web page might assume required knowledge of subject X.
> You add a link to another page (in another subdirectory, e.g.)
> introducing subject X.

Yes, but I still don't understand why you feel you cannot do this at
sourceforge.

> All three are also hopefully centered around some common topic.
> You can have coherent Ada packages, and coherent web pages
> or subdirectories thereof.

Sure and sourceforge is a coherent collections of web pages.

> Meyer in OOSC2, Ch 22:
> "All the features of a class must pertain to a single, well-identified
> abstraction." (I think this is recommended for clusters, too.)
> The same should be true of web pages, I think, and I always find myself
> distracted by ads, links to other things that they think I should

Use privoxy and ads go away :-) 

> be interested in, but am not, and more. If you, as author of a web page,
> are allowed to follow the "single topic" principle, good.
> The possibility is guaranteed if you are your own "web masters",
> because there are no defaults and requirements other than your
> own (lawful) ones.

Only if you own the server. Consider not every hobbyist out there have
the money to keep web-sites alive. Just look at the problem with AdaHome
and that this pops up first in Google

> Uhm, sourceforge has been suggested, iirc, to circumvent setting
> up pages and links for download, and taking care of them. That is,
> not having to set up your own homepage, download area, etc.

No. sf.net gives you a lot of tools, but you still *should* setup your
homepage. Just look at http://gnade.sf.net to see what I mean.

> I wanted to say, mainly, that it might be better if people make an
> effort at both producing good software, and also at producing an
> accessible web page that sticks to the subject, which is their software,
> and to really related subjects. If that can be done on sourceforge
> (as it can, to some extent, see GNADE (though I am currently getting
> operation timed out for the home page)), then so be it.

OK now I think we are agreeing :-)

> And if someone has the time to do it there, and if there is no
> risk of loosing anything that you do not want to loose (rights,
> the connection, ...), then so be it.

Time to do it there should equal time to do it somewhere else I would
imagine.
> The whole point of good hyperlinking is that you won't have to
> do a search, because the page is linked in context :-)

But that is what I am saying. Use freshmeat, adapower, adaic, yahoo and
register the homepage of your software so one can easily find it. But
you said that was careless, which I do not understand at all.

>: I really don't understand why registering your homepage at freshmeat of
>: yahoo or adapower is careless?
> 
> I didn't mean this, I have failed at saying that a freshmeat
> centered network is not the solution I would prefer to a solution
> where people take care of linking their well-written contributions
> to useful information. One emphasis is on taking care.

But I still don't understand how you think this is feasible. Say
tomorrow I want to start planning a program that can encrypt/decrypt
streams. So I naturally wants to see if somebody else already has done
this as a library I can use. So then I should go to my own homepage as
this would be my starting point. Go to Links click adapower and then
look at adapower. Now if person X in say France has made a library but
it is no link from adapower I don't get any further there. So then I'll
have to try yahoo or google.

> Look at how this works with component libraries in c.l.ada.
> We see some of their authors discussing aspects of their
> products. (Thanks for this, BTW!) On the other hand, lack of
> documentation is mentioned every now and then. Now imagine a
> situation where authors put their thoughts and arguments right
> into web pages.  Arguments could actually contain links from pro
> to con pages (perhaps not "deep down" in type descriptions, but in
> introductory or prefatory notes). This might require cooperation,
> and abiding by http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/

But we also see: "A link to the homepage of Libaray Z would be nice"

> Effect: Once you are hooked into the Ada components web, you can
> easily browse one library's documentation, and also move from one
> library to the other. (This internal and external linking is one
> reason why I was referring to coherent and coupled software modules,
> I think.)

OK so you are talking about making an Adaforge.net? 

Why I like sourceforge/savannah:

   * Gives a familiar web-pages, but also you can make your own.
   * Has CVS, bugtracking, mailings and ability to work on code as
     a team.
   * Easy to find the software.
   * Pages doesn't disappear because somebody moved or stop programming
     a library or program. You can get software not updated from say
     2000 and if the license permit develope it further yourself.
   * You have Foundaries (should be an Ada too)
   * Far better than a home-made page at a web-hotel with tons of
     banner ads to keep it gratis.
   * You get an easy URL. Project.sf.net
   * Easy to find related Ada libraries (by going to Programming Language
     and Ada)

What I don't like:

   * Legal restrictions. (?) not sure how the status is now.
   * Political changes. (Say USA shut down its connections to certain
     countries)
   * If you want to develop the software in a Cathedral way it is
     nicer to have your own page.
   * One place: Less secure.
   * One place: Many timeouts.

So I considere sourceforge, savannah a more suitable place if you do not
have your own server, or if the alternative is a web-hotel. If you do
have your own web-space which will be stable for years to come you use
this, but you register your links in places like freshmeat, adapower,
adaic, yahoo etc.. so that peolpe find them easily. If you make a
binding to a C library please get them to link to your binding.

But the most annoying thing is the death of web-pages and that this
results in the loss of software.

-- 
Preben Randhol -------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/Ada95 --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
:> 
:> (This text is drifting towards "writing Ada programs compared to
:> writing web pages", among other things.)
: 
: I think we are talking around ourselfs :-)

Yes, maybe so :-)

 
: Group reply?

(you instruct your email program to send at least to From:, and to Cc:.)

 
: Use privoxy and ads go away :-) 

but the layout will still be distracting and not related to the main
subject of the page. It's a compromise.

:  Consider not every hobbyist out there have
: the money to keep web-sites alive.

Form/join a group!


:> The whole point of good hyperlinking is that you won't have to
:> do a search, because the page is linked in context :-)
: 
: But that is what I am saying. Use freshmeat, adapower, adaic, yahoo and
: register the homepage of your software so one can easily find it

The difference is that freshmeat will be the analog of an index,
but the web, if only indexed, will not automatically be cross-referencing.

: But
: you said that was careless, which I do not understand at all.

No, again, I didn't say, or didn't mean to say this.
I thought one shouldn't step from lack of proper(!) web page setup
to freshmeat et al. _as a solution to this lack_ AND think,
"Job done."

: But I still don't understand how you think this is feasible.

It is feasable using _all_ available means among communicating
human beings, not just an indexing service, plus some effort.
See below for an example that _exists_.

: Say
: tomorrow I want to start planning a program that can encrypt/decrypt
: streams. So I naturally wants to see if somebody else already has done
: this as a library I can use. So then [...]
: I'll have to try yahoo or google.

This is the sad situation that is a necessary consequence of
not making cross references, via good hyperlinking. (You could
of course add c.l.ada, or collegues, or ... to your sources of
information. Just use the human _communications_ network (which
is also a social network).)

: OK so you are talking about making an Adaforge.net? 

I am trying to talk about authors who include helpful links to sources
of information in their articles about their software.

As an example, consider some
parts of the GNAT library sources. There are reference of the kind,
"this implementation is based on algorithm xyz, as published in 
Wizards' Magazine, 1976". I don't need Ada power or Google at _that_
point to find more comments about the implementation.

As another example, consider a web page giving a bird's eyes view
of some package. The author might have written in the page's text,

"The types in this package are derived from AUnit's ABC type."

or, better, he or she might have written,

"The types in this package are derived from
<a href="http://libre.act-europe.fr/aunit/">AUnit</a>'s ABC type."

If the author chooses the second option, there is no need to
search Google for AUnit, and recursively for Unit testing and
Extreme programming. You will find enough information on the
linked page, which again (recursively) has pointers (links) to other
useful information, in this case, pointers to Unit Testing,
and Extreme Programming. (Transitive closure of good hyperlinks.)

So having good links is feasable, in fact the presence of URIs in
hypertext document type definitions has been a deliberate choice to
help make this cross referencing a reality ;-) The WWW _could_ be
a good dictionary, with search engines becoming just a useful add on.

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Preben Randhol]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
>: Say
>: tomorrow I want to start planning a program that can encrypt/decrypt
>: streams. So I naturally wants to see if somebody else already has done
>: this as a library I can use. So then [...]
>: I'll have to try yahoo or google.
> 
> This is the sad situation that is a necessary consequence of
> not making cross references, via good hyperlinking. (You could
> of course add c.l.ada, or collegues, or ... to your sources of
> information. Just use the human _communications_ network (which
> is also a social network).)

But registering your link at places like freshmeat *IS* cross
referencing. I cannot go into your page and put a link to my page f.ex.

> I am trying to talk about authors who include helpful links to sources
> of information in their articles about their software.

Well were do one find the information then?

> As an example, consider some
> parts of the GNAT library sources. There are reference of the kind,
> "this implementation is based on algorithm xyz, as published in 
> Wizards' Magazine, 1976". I don't need Ada power or Google at _that_
> point to find more comments about the implementation.

No but how do you find gnat if you have no clue where it is?

> As another example, consider a web page giving a bird's eyes view
> of some package. The author might have written in the page's text,
> 
> "The types in this package are derived from AUnit's ABC type."
> 
> or, better, he or she might have written,
> 
> "The types in this package are derived from
><a href="http://libre.act-europe.fr/aunit/">AUnit</a>'s ABC type."
>
> If the author chooses the second option, there is no need to
> search Google for AUnit, and recursively for Unit testing and
> Extreme programming. You will find enough information on the
> linked page, which again (recursively) has pointers (links) to other
> useful information, in this case, pointers to Unit Testing,
> and Extreme Programming. (Transitive closure of good hyperlinks.)

You are talking about referencing to others packages, but how do you get
others to reference to *your* packages? Just look at this page:

   http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/Ada95/Klokka/

as you can see I do this, but it doesn't mean that GNAT will link to my
small toy for experimenting with tasks and gtkada. So to get a reference
to my tool I can register it at freshmeat f.ex so others can find it
when they are looking for something similar.

> So having good links is feasable, in fact the presence of URIs in
> hypertext document type definitions has been a deliberate choice to
> help make this cross referencing a reality ;-) The WWW _could_ be
> a good dictionary, with search engines becoming just a useful add on.

This is in my humble opinion theory at best, utopian at worst. Have you
ever tried to read a heavily crosslinked document? You end up loosing
the thread of the documentation due to too many possible detours.

Hyperlinks are great, but should not be overused.

-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
: But registering your link at places like freshmeat *IS* cross
: referencing.

No, it's indexing. A freshmeat link to your site does not refer
to a freshmeat text, or to other text that might be related to
your text.

: I cannot go into your page and put a link to my page f.ex.

But you can ask me. This is the communications network. If
information about your text is useful to know for my text,
I will add a link to your text.

:> I am trying to talk about authors who include helpful links to sources
:> of information in their articles about their software.
 
: Well were do one find the information then?

It has been possible to find information before the invention
of the world wide web. It is still possible because the techniques
have not yet been forgotten.

In the case of AUnit, the authors have obviously known Unit Testing,
and so they have added a link. Of course flow of information has
to start somewhere, somehow Unit Testing must be made known.
But this is only for getting things started. Recur, from then on.

: how do you find gnat if you have no clue where it is?

How should I be looking for GNAT when there has not been a
link in the general communications network that had "told me"
about GNAT in the first place? If it has been a person, for
example, I can ask. (Again, I'm not saying that a software
index site is useless.)

: You are talking about referencing to others packages, but how do you get
: others to reference to *your* packages?

See my answer to this question above.

:   http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/Ada95/Klokka/
: 
: as you can see I do this, but it doesn't mean that GNAT will link to my
: small toy for experimenting with tasks and gtkada.

Will this link add useful information, from the GNAT perspective?

: So to get a reference
: to my tool I can register it at freshmeat f.ex so others can find it
: when they are looking for something similar.

Or you could start chatting with the tasking and clock people.

:> The WWW _could_ be
:> a good dictionary, with search engines becoming just a useful add on.
: 
: This is in my humble opinion theory at best, utopian at worst.

Not in my opinion.

: Have you
: ever tried to read a heavily crosslinked document?

Frequently. I find it a relief.

: You end up loosing
: the thread of the documentation due to too many possible detours.

That's not the fault of links, you have to learn how to read
and sticking to the subject. As in browsing an encyclopedia.
As in following the details of a program. As in news groups ;-)

: Hyperlinks are great, but should not be overused.

I could ask you to define "overused", but I suggest we stop here :-)


Georg

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Preben Randhol]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
>: But registering your link at places like freshmeat *IS* cross
>: referencing.
> 
> No, it's indexing. A freshmeat link to your site does not refer
> to a freshmeat text, or to other text that might be related to
> your text.

Sure it does. 
> 
>: I cannot go into your page and put a link to my page f.ex.
> 
> But you can ask me. This is the communications network. If
> information about your text is useful to know for my text,
> I will add a link to your text.

Then you will be indexing.

Do you consider the phonebook as a bad idea because it indexes all phone
numbers?

> In the case of AUnit, the authors have obviously known Unit Testing,
> and so they have added a link. Of course flow of information has
> to start somewhere, somehow Unit Testing must be made known.
> But this is only for getting things started. Recur, from then on.

If I knew Unit Testing (which would probably be more likely than a
spesific implementation) how do I find Aunit?

> How should I be looking for GNAT when there has not been a
> link in the general communications network that had "told me"
> about GNAT in the first place? If it has been a person, for
> example, I can ask. (Again, I'm not saying that a software
> index site is useless.)

I think you are.

> Will this link add useful information, from the GNAT perspective?

No not at all. But it may be useful to the handful who ask questions on
how to mix tasks and gtkada or to somebody who simply want to look at
the source code or have a new clock on the desktop. 

> Or you could start chatting with the tasking and clock people.

Who are they? There are about 6 billion people in the world.

>: Hyperlinks are great, but should not be overused.
> 
> I could ask you to define "overused", but I suggest we stop here :-)

Well you could link all words on your homepage to a dictionary f.ex :-)

Preben
-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
: Georg Bauhaus wrote:
:> Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
:>: But registering your link at places like freshmeat *IS* cross
:>: referencing.
:> 
:> No, it's indexing. A freshmeat link to your site does not refer
:> to a freshmeat text, or to other text that might be related to
:> your text.
: 
: Sure it does. 

Lets see. I said, "A freshmeat link to Klokka does not refer
to a freshmeat text".
It doesn't because it can't because it refers to Klokka, which is
not on freshmeat.
But freshmeat indices refer to short abstracts that refer to project
sites, so they are indirect. Who will be editing these abstracts?
If it is you, then registering with freshmeat is the same as
taking care of your web pages. You can add good linking, and you
can hope that freshmeat doesn't change its policies.
If it isn't you then good things can happen, with luck, but need not.

:>: I cannot go into your page and put a link to my page f.ex.
:> 
:> But you can ask me. This is the communications network. If
:> information about your text is useful to know for my text,
:> I will add a link to your text.
: 
: Then you will be indexing.

No. I won't have a links collection, but I will have cross
references, in context (con_text_!).

: Do you consider the phonebook as a bad idea because it indexes all phone
: numbers?

How many times will I have to repeat that I don't think indices
are bad?

: If I knew Unit Testing (which would probably be more likely than a
: spesific implementation) how do I find Aunit?

This, again, is a question of where recursion starts. I don't
know how you learn about things, but is it only through reading
freshmeat?

:>  (Again, I'm not saying that a software
:> index site is useless.)
: 
: I think you are.

You are free to do that.

:> Or you could start chatting with the tasking and clock people.
: 
: Who are they? There are about 6 billion people in the world.

Same question as above, you refuse my answer.


Georg

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Preben Randhol]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Lets see. I said, "A freshmeat link to Klokka does not refer to a
> freshmeat text".  It doesn't because it can't because it refers to
> Klokka, which is not on freshmeat.  But freshmeat indices refer to
> short abstracts that refer to project sites, so they are indirect. Who
> will be editing these abstracts?  If it is you, then registering with
> freshmeat is the same as taking care of your web pages. You can add
> good linking, and you can hope that freshmeat doesn't change its
> policies.  If it isn't you then good things can happen, with luck, but
> need not.

You submitt a short and a longer description which will be edited (if
needed as not everybody in the world speaks English fluently).

> No. I won't have a links collection, but I will have cross references,
> in context (con_text_!).

But what gain is this?

>: Do you consider the phonebook as a bad idea because it indexes all
>phone : numbers?
> 
> How many times will I have to repeat that I don't think indices are
> bad?

Because you keep saying that they are unessesary.

> 
>: If I knew Unit Testing (which would probably be more likely than a :
>spesific implementation) how do I find Aunit?
> 
> This, again, is a question of where recursion starts. I don't know how
> you learn about things, but is it only through reading freshmeat?

No, but when I'm looking for software I use freshmeat, sourceforge,
yahoo, google more or less in that order.

>:>  (Again, I'm not saying that a software :> index site is useless.) :
>: I think you are.
> 
> You are free to do that.
> 
>:> Or you could start chatting with the tasking and clock people.  : :
>Who are they? There are about 6 billion people in the world.
> 
> Same question as above, you refuse my answer.

Please reitterate because I don't understand which answer that would be.

-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Preben Randhol]

Preben Randhol wrote:
>> No. I won't have a links collection, but I will have cross references,
>> in context (con_text_!).
> 
> But what gain is this?

The context of freshmeat is available software. And you can click f.ex
on Programming Language Ada and filter out all that are not Ada programs
or you can go to the section of say Editors to find other Editors that
you might like better etc...


-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Preben Randhol]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
>: 
>: The context of freshmeat is available software.
> 
> The "context" of something is
> a/ the words around it in a text
> b/ figuratively, things seen together with the thing, which let
>    it appear in a specific light. You could have another "context",
>    which will shed a different light on the thing and thus offer a different
>    perspective.
> So, available software is one item that we have in the (b)-context
> of freshmeat. We don't have an (a)-context around it in a link list
> other than the other links, and in the abstract for one item this
> context is gone.

And I'd say for this (b) is/and will be very important as the volume of
information (a) increases. You need both you don't need just (a).

>: And you can click f.ex
>: on Programming Language Ada and filter out
> 
> Yes, that is what indices are good for. But the result is not
> a crosslinked text but a collection of pointers to Ada projects.

Well there are no such things to date. Adapower is closer, but it is
still more (b) than (a) accoring to that you wrote above.

> A useful collection, but the result does not give you a replacement
> for the work done by authors, who have added cross references to
> both
> - anchors in their own texts and

This you can still have even if you anchor your page at f.ex freshmeat.

> - to anchors in texts written by other authors.

But a link from one minute homepage to another (and possibly back) won't
make the software/information much more easy to find. And I doubt one
company would like to link to a competitors software f.ex.

Say one made a library and a number of programs used this library, it
would be nice for the library to link to these programs to show that it
is being used, but I would not expect that they wrote anything more than
a simple list with a short description (one line). The web-pages of the
programs should link to the library naturally because you might need to
download it to make the software work.

On the other hand I wouldn't think vim.sf.net would link to my minor
page on vim because I have written a bit about vim and have (although
not ready yet) made a small script for vim. But luckily vim.sf.net has a
repository so I can add information and a link to my script when I'm
finished.


-- 
Ada95 is good for you.
http://www.crystalcode.com/codemage/MainMenu/Coding/Ada/IntroducingAda.php

Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
 
 [freshmeat]
: You submitt a short and a longer description which will be edited (if
: needed as not everybody in the world speaks English fluently).

Sure, so what? It is essentially a useful index where each entry
is accompanied by a short description. Things like these have
existed for a long time, and there rarely was and is cross
referencing in them. It is easy to see why:

Each author of an abstract doesn't necessarily have all
the other abstracts, from which they could collect those
that are relevant, and find enough specific information
in them so they could point their readers to that specific
information in another abstract.

:> No. I won't have a links collection, but I will have cross references,
:> in context (con_text_!).
: 
: But what gain is this?

Have you really never had the pleasure of reading a text
which has cross references in it? By this I mean, for example,
a book with phrases like, "as is explained in on p.34, section 4.3
on aeronautical vacuum cleaning",
or an online dictionary with entries containing "a Foo is a stick
with => notches in it"?

That is, a text which _never_ requires a search engine, because
every relevant piece of text has enough cross referencing attached
to it so you always can move directly to a place that explains the
item which at the start of the link is required knowledge?
In the first example, you won't need the index because you can open
p.34, in the second example you won't need to search for "notches",
because there is a clickable link (show here as "=>").

This is precisely because the authors of the book and the dictionary
have bothered to actually add cross referencing links _in_ the
text body. Let me repeat: _in_ the text body.


:> How many times will I have to repeat that I don't think indices are
:> bad?
: 
: Because you keep saying that they are unessesary.

Show me where, maybe there is a misunderstanding.
I said they are no more than a useful add on, but unnecessary
the moment there is good hyperlinking.
You keep asking me where I look for information I1 when I don't
know where I1 it is.
I tell you that if I have heard about I1 I do already have a
link because otherwise I cannot possibly have heard about I1.
In addition, the moment I learn about I1 in a text which _is_
a hypertext, a text that does have cross references, then I 
won't need a search index for finding I1 because there _is_ a
hyperlink to I1.

How did the first author at the link end learn about I1?
Do I have to care? No. Do I have to find an origin in the
transitive closure of good hyperlinks? No, because the
information is there. Where did it come from? This is a
relogious/philosophical question. The information is there,
otherwise I cannot know it.

Things are different if I don't know exactely what I am
looking for. Here I can follow any path I like, and the moment
I have found a network of good cross references I will be happy
because it is full of well-connected information I had been
looking for.

:> This, again, is a question of where recursion starts. I don't know how
:> you learn about things, but is it only through reading freshmeat?
: 
: No, but when I'm looking for software I use freshmeat, sourceforge,
: yahoo, google more or less in that order.

So what does this tell me about the usefulness of good hyperlinking?

:> Same question as above, you refuse my answer.
: 
: Please reitterate because I don't understand which answer that would be.

O.K. See above.