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From: dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar)
Subject: Re: floating point comparison
Date: 1997/08/29
Date: 1997-08-29T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <dewar.872856754@merv> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 5u4eq6$30b$1@news.lth.se


<<<<You're using the wrong definition of 'error'. Webster gives:

error

 4 a : the difference between an observed or calculated value and a true
value; specifically : variation in measurements, calculations, or
   observations of a quantity due to mistakes or to uncontrollable factors
---

This explains the use of the term 'error' in numerical analysis and
gives that round-off error can be defined as the difference between
the calculated value and the true mathematical value.>>



It is especially difficult for non-native speakers of a language to
accurately understand the connotation of words, as opposted to the
denotation. Dictionaries tend to concentrate only on the denotation,
especially if you just quote the definition -- you can sometimes get
a better feel for the connotation by looking through the references in
a comprehensive dictionary (really the only one for the English language
is the full edition of the OED).

The problem with the word error is that, while of course everyone knows
its denotation (certainly you don't have to go to a dictionary for that),
all native speakers of English also very much no its connotation, which
is bad, horrible, something-to-avoid, evil, unacceptable ... i.e. uniformly
negative (for a feeling of this connotation have a look at the use of the
word error by Mary Baker Eddy, who essentially uses it as a synonym for
what other religeons call sin -- now to be fair it is not as negative as
sin, and that was MBE's reason for arguing for using the word error instead,
but it most assuredly is something to avoid).

Of course the phrase "roundoff error" is denotationally appropriate, and
is not about to mislead people who understand FPT semantics and numerical
analysis.

But as this whole thread has made clear, there are a lot of people who
(a) want to use fpt, and (b) meet neither of these criteria.

FOr such people, the use of the word error is in practice damaging because
it suggests there is something wrong with floating-point, and it leads to
superstitious mumbo-jumbo like always use Float'Epsilon when comparing
any two floating-point quantities, to avoid the dreaded ERROR!

As I have repeatedly said, I do not seriously suggest the entire community
change its terminology, that is of course impossible, but I am suggesting
that by concentrating on the effect of this word, and suggesting that a
more neutral word like discrepancy would have been better (note that your
dictionary definition would apply almost unchanged to disccrepancy), we might
avoid some of this superstition!

Please understand that my point here is not technical. I perfectly well
understand how fpt works, and have written large numerical codes, properly
and carefully analyzed with respect to "error" propagation that are still
in wide use. My point is entirely about trying to get people to understand
that the use and implementation of floating-point is well defined in 
computer systems, and does not involve "error" in the informal connotative
sense.





  parent reply	other threads:[~1997-08-29  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 105+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1997-07-29  0:00 floating point comparison Matthew Heaney
1997-07-30  0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-30  0:00   ` Matthew Heaney
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Bob Binder  (remove .mapson to email)
1997-07-31  0:00       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-01  0:00         ` Dale Stanbrough
1997-08-04  0:00         ` Paul Eggert
1997-08-06  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-14  0:00             ` Paul Eggert
1997-08-01  0:00       ` user
1997-08-02  0:00         ` Peter L. Montgomery
1997-08-04  0:00           ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-05  0:00             ` Bob Binder  (remove .mapson to email)
1997-08-02  0:00         ` Lynn Killingbeck
1997-08-03  0:00           ` Bob Binder  (remove .mapson to email)
1997-08-03  0:00             ` Charles R. Lyttle
1997-08-03  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Samuel Mize
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-02  0:00     ` Lynn Killingbeck
1997-07-30  0:00   ` Matthew Heaney
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Jim Carr
1997-07-31  0:00   ` Gerald Kasner
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-30  0:00 ` Jan Galkowski
1997-07-31  0:00   ` Don Taylor
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Russ Lyttle
1997-08-01  0:00       ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-02  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-02  0:00           ` Matthew Heaney
1997-08-03  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-04  0:00           ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-05  0:00             ` Jan-Christoph Puchta
1997-08-05  0:00               ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-05  0:00                 ` Samuel Mize
1997-08-06  0:00                 ` Chris L. Kuszmaul
1997-08-07  0:00                   ` Dave Sparks
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Mark Eichin
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Jan-Christoph Puchta
1997-08-09  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-10  0:00                       ` Lynn Killingbeck
     [not found]                   ` <5sbb90$qsc@redtail.cruzio.com>
     [not found]                     ` <5scugs$jdc$1@cnn.nas.nasa.gov>
1997-08-07  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Gerhard Heinzel
1997-08-08  0:00                       ` Daniel Villeneuve
1997-08-08  0:00                       ` schlafly
1997-08-09  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-09  0:00                         ` David Ullrich
1997-08-10  0:00                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-16  0:00                             ` Andrew V. Nesterov
1997-08-18  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-19  0:00                                 ` Hans Olsson
1997-08-19  0:00                                 ` Jim Carr
1997-08-21  0:00                                   ` Christian Bau
1997-08-21  0:00                                     ` Jim Carr
1997-08-21  0:00                                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-22  0:00                                         ` Jim Carr
1997-08-22  0:00                                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-23  0:00                                             ` Jim Carr
1997-08-24  0:00                                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-29  0:00                                                 ` Andrew V. Nesterov
1997-08-29  0:00                                                   ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                                                     ` <340DF1DD.2736@iop.com>
1997-09-07  0:00                                                       ` Get_Immediate Robert Dewar
1997-09-07  0:00                                                       ` Get_Immediate Robert Dewar
1997-09-08  0:00                                                       ` Get_Immediate J Giffen
     [not found]                                                 ` <5u4eq6$30b$1@news.lth.se>
1997-08-29  0:00                                                   ` Robert Dewar [this message]
1997-09-01  0:00                                                     ` floating point comparison Chris RL Morgan
1997-09-01  0:00                                                 ` Jim Carr
     [not found]                                                   ` <checkerEFx6xI.FCM@netcom.com>
1997-09-03  0:00                                                     ` Chris L. Kuszmaul
1997-09-05  0:00                                                       ` Malome Khomo
1997-09-07  0:00                                                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-05  0:00                                                   ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-10  0:00                                                     ` Jim Carr
1997-09-12  0:00                                                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-15  0:00                                                         ` James Pauley
1997-09-16  0:00                                                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-23  0:00                                         ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-23  0:00                                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-30  0:00                                 ` Paul Eggert
1997-08-06  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-07  0:00                   ` Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Peter Shenkin
1997-08-09  0:00                       ` Albert Y.C. Lai
1997-08-06  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]               ` <33E8DFF6.6F44@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>
1997-08-07  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                 ` <33EA1251.3466@link.com>
     [not found]                   ` <33EA46CC.226@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Christian Bau
1997-08-12  0:00                     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-08-23  0:00                       ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-23  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-05  0:00                         ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-09-06  0:00                           ` schlafly
1997-09-09  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-07  0:00                           ` M. J. Saltzman
1997-09-11  0:00                           ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-08-07  0:00               ` Dr. Rex A. Dwyer
1997-08-06  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]               ` <33E8E3E1.17EA@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>
     [not found]                 ` <5sbgpk$q0n$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>
1997-08-07  0:00                   ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                     ` <33FE4603.1B6B@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>
1997-08-23  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-08  0:00                   ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-07  0:00             ` Do-While Jones
1997-08-03  0:00         ` Brian Rogoff
1997-08-03  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-02  0:00 ` Michael Sierchio
1997-08-08  0:00 ` floating point conversions Mark Lusti
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