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From: dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar)
Subject: Re: floating point comparison
Date: 1997/07/31
Date: 1997-07-31T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <dewar.870386046@merv> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 33E03DBC.4E82ED1C@Physik.Uni-Magdeburg.DE


Gerald says

<<Things you call approximate hocus-pocus make life hard if you try to
implement some algortithms wich are exact (in exact arithmetic), but
fail due to rounding erros EVEN ON MODERN IEE MACHINES.

Comparing floating point numbers for equality should be avoided, the
programmer need some deeper insight of the problem.
>>


Nothing "fails" due to rounding errors on modern IEEE machines. What is
wrong here is not some kind of failure in the arithemtic, but the
programmers misuse of it. 

Of course if you expect to be able to take an algorithm which is
"exact" using real arithmetic, it is often completely bogus to
simply encode it using floating point arithmetic, that's exactly what
I mean by "approximate hocus pocus".

If you try to store 1001 numbers in a 1000 array, your program
malfunctions, but you immediately understand that the program is
wrong, you do not blame the array for "failing".

Misuse of IEEE floating-arithmetic is the same as any other bug a
careless programmer introduces into their program.

As to whether equality is what you want, it is a well defined
operation, you use it when and only when you want this operation.
It is certainly not the case that if the real arithmetic algorithm
you are using as an implementation model has an equality that you
should blindly use the equality IEEE operation. But then it is
equally foolish to think that you can blinndly translate an
addition to to a floating-point add. Any kind of blind unthinking
behavior is likely to get you into big trouble.

As (one) example of a case where equality is approrpiate, consider
the problem of computing a square root by Newton Raphson, using
round-towards-zero. In this situation, the estimate will converge
accurately to IEEE equality.

Floating-point code is had stuff, most people who do it shouldn't!





  reply	other threads:[~1997-07-31  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 105+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1997-07-29  0:00 floating point comparison Matthew Heaney
1997-07-30  0:00 ` Jan Galkowski
1997-07-31  0:00   ` Don Taylor
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Russ Lyttle
1997-08-01  0:00       ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-02  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-02  0:00           ` Matthew Heaney
1997-08-03  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-04  0:00           ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-05  0:00             ` Jan-Christoph Puchta
1997-08-05  0:00               ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-05  0:00                 ` Samuel Mize
1997-08-06  0:00                 ` Chris L. Kuszmaul
1997-08-07  0:00                   ` Dave Sparks
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Mark Eichin
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Jan-Christoph Puchta
1997-08-09  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-10  0:00                       ` Lynn Killingbeck
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                   ` <5sbb90$qsc@redtail.cruzio.com>
     [not found]                     ` <5scugs$jdc$1@cnn.nas.nasa.gov>
1997-08-07  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Gerhard Heinzel
1997-08-08  0:00                       ` Daniel Villeneuve
1997-08-08  0:00                       ` schlafly
1997-08-09  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-09  0:00                         ` David Ullrich
1997-08-10  0:00                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-16  0:00                             ` Andrew V. Nesterov
1997-08-18  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-19  0:00                                 ` Jim Carr
1997-08-21  0:00                                   ` Christian Bau
1997-08-21  0:00                                     ` Jim Carr
1997-08-21  0:00                                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-22  0:00                                         ` Jim Carr
1997-08-22  0:00                                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-23  0:00                                             ` Jim Carr
1997-08-24  0:00                                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-29  0:00                                                 ` Andrew V. Nesterov
1997-08-29  0:00                                                   ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                                                     ` <340DF1DD.2736@iop.com>
1997-09-07  0:00                                                       ` Get_Immediate Robert Dewar
1997-09-07  0:00                                                       ` Get_Immediate Robert Dewar
1997-09-08  0:00                                                       ` Get_Immediate J Giffen
     [not found]                                                 ` <5u4eq6$30b$1@news.lth.se>
1997-08-29  0:00                                                   ` floating point comparison Robert Dewar
1997-09-01  0:00                                                     ` Chris RL Morgan
1997-09-01  0:00                                                 ` Jim Carr
     [not found]                                                   ` <checkerEFx6xI.FCM@netcom.com>
1997-09-03  0:00                                                     ` Chris L. Kuszmaul
1997-09-05  0:00                                                       ` Malome Khomo
1997-09-07  0:00                                                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-05  0:00                                                   ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-10  0:00                                                     ` Jim Carr
1997-09-12  0:00                                                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-15  0:00                                                         ` James Pauley
1997-09-16  0:00                                                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-23  0:00                                         ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-23  0:00                                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-19  0:00                                 ` Hans Olsson
1997-08-30  0:00                                 ` Paul Eggert
1997-08-06  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-07  0:00                   ` Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Peter Shenkin
1997-08-09  0:00                       ` Albert Y.C. Lai
1997-08-06  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-07  0:00               ` Dr. Rex A. Dwyer
     [not found]               ` <33E8DFF6.6F44@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>
1997-08-07  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                 ` <33EA1251.3466@link.com>
     [not found]                   ` <33EA46CC.226@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>
1997-08-08  0:00                     ` Christian Bau
1997-08-12  0:00                     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-08-23  0:00                       ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-23  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-05  0:00                         ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-09-06  0:00                           ` schlafly
1997-09-09  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-07  0:00                           ` M. J. Saltzman
1997-09-11  0:00                           ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-08-06  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]               ` <33E8E3E1.17EA@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>
     [not found]                 ` <5sbgpk$q0n$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>
1997-08-07  0:00                   ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                     ` <33FE4603.1B6B@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>
1997-08-23  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-08  0:00                   ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-07  0:00             ` Do-While Jones
1997-08-03  0:00         ` Brian Rogoff
1997-08-03  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-30  0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-30  0:00   ` Matthew Heaney
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Samuel Mize
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Bob Binder  (remove .mapson to email)
1997-07-31  0:00       ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-01  0:00         ` Dale Stanbrough
1997-08-04  0:00         ` Paul Eggert
1997-08-06  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-14  0:00             ` Paul Eggert
1997-08-01  0:00       ` user
1997-08-02  0:00         ` Lynn Killingbeck
1997-08-03  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-03  0:00           ` Bob Binder  (remove .mapson to email)
1997-08-03  0:00             ` Charles R. Lyttle
1997-08-02  0:00         ` Peter L. Montgomery
1997-08-04  0:00           ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-05  0:00             ` Bob Binder  (remove .mapson to email)
1997-08-02  0:00     ` Lynn Killingbeck
1997-07-30  0:00   ` Matthew Heaney
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Jim Carr
1997-07-31  0:00   ` Gerald Kasner
1997-07-31  0:00     ` Robert Dewar [this message]
1997-08-02  0:00 ` Michael Sierchio
1997-08-08  0:00 ` floating point conversions Mark Lusti
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