* Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag @ 2009-01-29 19:51 RasikaSrinivasan 2009-01-29 22:52 ` Martyn Pike 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: RasikaSrinivasan @ 2009-01-29 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw) http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag 2009-01-29 19:51 Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag RasikaSrinivasan @ 2009-01-29 22:52 ` Martyn Pike 2009-01-30 0:15 ` Jeffrey Creem ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Martyn Pike @ 2009-01-29 22:52 UTC (permalink / raw) RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com wrote: > http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded An interesting article, but is it 100% accurate ? *Some* free tools maybe but I disagree with the implication that all those ports to most mainstream 16 and 32 bit CPUs are free. As far as I am aware, the profiles referenced here (http://www.adacore.com/home/gnatpro/toolsuite/runtimes/) are not free, not licensed by the GPL and only available to GNAT Pro customers ? If I call Adacore up and say : "Where can I download a pre-built binary free/GPL version of GNAT that is hosted on Windows but cross compiles to PowerPC and gives me a Ravenscar Profile compliant runtime for my hypothetical barebones hobby project ?" I would be told those requirements mean I needed a GNAT Pro subscription which is not free. I quote the article : > Tasking is a built-in feature, not a bolt-on requiring > expensive dalliances with RTOS vendors Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer actually pays twice. They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS. If I chose the language supported by the RTOS vendors stock tools (invariably C/C++) then I only pay the RTOS vendor. Albeit I would pay in blood, sweat and tears later on in my project lifecycle ! It is very confusing for me, as an Ada developer, to read an article like this and not feel like new converts to the Ada cause are being spammed. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not knocking Jack Ganssle or Adacore for their efforts but I find this article slightly misleading. Martyn ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag 2009-01-29 22:52 ` Martyn Pike @ 2009-01-30 0:15 ` Jeffrey Creem 2009-01-30 7:35 ` Martyn Pike 2009-01-30 9:19 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development anon 2009-01-30 15:17 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey Creem @ 2009-01-30 0:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Martyn Pike wrote: > RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com wrote: >> http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded > > An interesting article, but is it 100% accurate ? > > *Some* free tools maybe but I disagree with the implication that all > those ports to most mainstream 16 and 32 bit CPUs are free. > > As far as I am aware, the profiles referenced here > (http://www.adacore.com/home/gnatpro/toolsuite/runtimes/) are not free, > not licensed by the GPL and only available to GNAT Pro customers ? > This is not quite correct. As far as I know, all versions of GNAT Pro for all targets are free software and covered by the GPL/GPL+Exception clause. Just turns out that if you want to get it from AdaCore you will have to purchase a GNATPro subscription. So, for the free you are talking about I agree but I believe you are incorrect about the GPL assertion. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag 2009-01-30 0:15 ` Jeffrey Creem @ 2009-01-30 7:35 ` Martyn Pike 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Martyn Pike @ 2009-01-30 7:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Jeffrey Creem wrote: > > This is not quite correct. As far as I know, all versions of GNAT Pro > for all targets are free software and covered by the GPL/GPL+Exception > clause. > > Just turns out that if you want to get it from AdaCore you will have to > purchase a GNATPro subscription. > > So, for the free you are talking about I agree but I believe you are > incorrect about the GPL assertion. ok - I see. Thanks Jeffrey for clearing that up for me and I stand corrected. Martyn ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development 2009-01-29 22:52 ` Martyn Pike 2009-01-30 0:15 ` Jeffrey Creem @ 2009-01-30 9:19 ` anon 2009-01-30 12:38 ` RasikaSrinivasan 2009-01-30 15:10 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 2009-01-30 15:17 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 2 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: anon @ 2009-01-30 9:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Except for a few OS like Linux or the many favors of BSD, a software developer have to pay extra to get the tools to access the full features of the OS, even if a free or low cost compiler is provided. These tools with documentation are normally call a Software Development Kit (SDK). And if you check with IBM, they have two version of Ada. One is a CDROM compiler only version which sells for less than $200.00 with what they call a media license. But the full SDK Ada version starts around $15K per year which is about the same price for Adacore's GNAT Pro. So, compilers may be cheap but you will pay and pay big for the addition of the SDK. I just wish that Adacore would think about offering the Ravenscar subsystem as a separate package that may be free or they could charge a onetime fee for a non-updatable version of the package. Now, as for the article well its like a reviewer says the movie is Great, but there is no valid information on why its GREAT! In <u-6dnX_qZOC4rh_UnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> writes: >RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com wrote: >> http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded > >An interesting article, but is it 100% accurate ? > >*Some* free tools maybe but I disagree with the implication that all >those ports to most mainstream 16 and 32 bit CPUs are free. > >As far as I am aware, the profiles referenced here >(http://www.adacore.com/home/gnatpro/toolsuite/runtimes/) are not free, >not licensed by the GPL and only available to GNAT Pro customers ? > >If I call Adacore up and say : > >"Where can I download a pre-built binary free/GPL version of GNAT that >is hosted on Windows but cross compiles to PowerPC and gives me a >Ravenscar Profile compliant runtime for my hypothetical barebones hobby >project ?" > >I would be told those requirements mean I needed a GNAT Pro subscription >which is not free. > >I quote the article : > > > Tasking is a built-in feature, not a bolt-on requiring > > expensive dalliances with RTOS vendors > >Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer >actually pays twice. They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and >stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that >layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS. > >If I chose the language supported by the RTOS vendors stock tools >(invariably C/C++) then I only pay the RTOS vendor. Albeit I would pay >in blood, sweat and tears later on in my project lifecycle ! > >It is very confusing for me, as an Ada developer, to read an article >like this and not feel like new converts to the Ada cause are being spammed. > >Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not knocking Jack Ganssle or >Adacore for their efforts but I find this article slightly misleading. > >Martyn > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development 2009-01-30 9:19 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development anon @ 2009-01-30 12:38 ` RasikaSrinivasan 2009-01-30 14:53 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 2009-01-30 15:10 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: RasikaSrinivasan @ 2009-01-30 12:38 UTC (permalink / raw) I didnt realize IBM had an Ada compiler. Is this based on gnat? (I will now go to google) Any case what does "full SDK" Ada mean? Packages to O/S like starlet used to be for VMS? On Jan 30, 4:19 am, a...@anon.org (anon) wrote: > Except for a few OS like Linux or the many favors of BSD, a software > developer have to pay extra to get the tools to access the full features of > the OS, even if a free or low cost compiler is provided. These tools with > documentation are normally call a Software Development Kit (SDK). > > And if you check with IBM, they have two version of Ada. One is a CDROM > compiler only version which sells for less than $200.00 with what they > call a media license. But the full SDK Ada version starts around $15K per > year which is about the same price for Adacore's GNAT Pro. > > So, compilers may be cheap but you will pay and pay big for the addition > of the SDK. > > I just wish that Adacore would think about offering the Ravenscar subsystem > as a separate package that may be free or they could charge a onetime fee > for a non-updatable version of the package. > > Now, as for the article well its like a reviewer says the movie is Great, but > there is no valid information on why its GREAT! > > In <u-6dnX_qZOC4rh_UnZ2dneKdnZydn...@giganews.com>, Martyn Pike <emco...@gmail.com> writes: > > >RasikaSriniva...@gmail.com wrote: > >>http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded > > >An interesting article, but is it 100% accurate ? > > >*Some* free tools maybe but I disagree with the implication that all > >those ports to most mainstream 16 and 32 bit CPUs are free. > > >As far as I am aware, the profiles referenced here > >(http://www.adacore.com/home/gnatpro/toolsuite/runtimes/) are not free, > >not licensed by the GPL and only available to GNAT Pro customers ? > > >If I call Adacore up and say : > > >"Where can I download a pre-built binary free/GPL version of GNAT that > >is hosted on Windows but cross compiles to PowerPC and gives me a > >Ravenscar Profile compliant runtime for my hypothetical barebones hobby > >project ?" > > >I would be told those requirements mean I needed a GNAT Pro subscription > >which is not free. > > >I quote the article : > > > > Tasking is a built-in feature, not a bolt-on requiring > > > expensive dalliances with RTOS vendors > > >Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer > >actually pays twice. They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and > >stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that > >layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS. > > >If I chose the language supported by the RTOS vendors stock tools > >(invariably C/C++) then I only pay the RTOS vendor. Albeit I would pay > >in blood, sweat and tears later on in my project lifecycle ! > > >It is very confusing for me, as an Ada developer, to read an article > >like this and not feel like new converts to the Ada cause are being spammed. > > >Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not knocking Jack Ganssle or > >Adacore for their efforts but I find this article slightly misleading. > > >Martyn > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development 2009-01-30 12:38 ` RasikaSrinivasan @ 2009-01-30 14:53 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester @ 2009-01-30 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2009-01-30, RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com <RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com> wrote: |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |"I didnt realize IBM had an Ada compiler. Is this based on gnat? (I| |will now go to google) | | | |[..]" | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| No. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development 2009-01-30 9:19 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development anon 2009-01-30 12:38 ` RasikaSrinivasan @ 2009-01-30 15:10 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester @ 2009-01-30 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2009-01-30, anon <anon@anon.org> wrote: |------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"[..] | | | |And if you check with IBM, they have two version of Ada. One is a CDROM | |compiler only version which sells for less than $200.00 with what they | |call a media license. But the full SDK Ada version starts around $15K per | |year which is about the same price for Adacore's GNAT Pro." | |------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Which IBM Ada compilers are so cheap? In September 2008 an employee of I.B.M. informed me that the least I could expect to be demanded for a copy would be: !-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------! !"[..] ! ! ! !Price list for 1 license of IBM Rational ADA Developer Enterprise Edition Floating User License! !+ SW Subscription & Support 12 Months is 35.499,00 EUR, but Universidade de Coimbra can acquire! !it for special price of 14.200,00 EUR. ! ! ! ![..]" ! !-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------! "14.200,00 EUR" was probably intended to convey 14,200.00 Euro. |------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"[..] | | | |I just wish that Adacore would think about offering the Ravenscar subsystem | |as a separate package that may be free or they could charge a onetime fee | |for a non-updatable version of the package. | | | |[..]" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------------| HTTP://Polaris.DIT.UPM.Es/~ork/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag 2009-01-29 22:52 ` Martyn Pike 2009-01-30 0:15 ` Jeffrey Creem 2009-01-30 9:19 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development anon @ 2009-01-30 15:17 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 2009-02-02 15:32 ` Martyn Pike 2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester @ 2009-01-30 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2009-01-29, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> wrote: |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"[..] | | | |Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer | |actually pays twice. They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and | |stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that | |layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS. | | | |[..]" | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| Hello, They do not need an operating system. They do not need AdaCore. They do not need GNARL/GNULL. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag 2009-01-30 15:17 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester @ 2009-02-02 15:32 ` Martyn Pike 2009-02-02 18:50 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Martyn Pike @ 2009-02-02 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester wrote: > On 2009-01-29, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> wrote: > > |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| > |"[..] | > | | > |Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer | > |actually pays twice. They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and | > |stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that | > |layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS. | > | | > |[..]" | > |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| > > Hello, > > They do not need an operating system. They do not need AdaCore. They > do not need GNARL/GNULL. Hello. Would you care to elaborate please ? thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag 2009-02-02 15:32 ` Martyn Pike @ 2009-02-02 18:50 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester @ 2009-02-02 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2009-02-02, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> wrote: |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester wrote: | |> On 2009-01-29, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> wrote: | |> | |> |---------------------------------------------------------------------|| |> |"[..] || |> | || |> |Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer || |> |actually pays twice. They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and|| |> |stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that || |> |layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS. || |> | || |> |[..]" || |> |---------------------------------------------------------------------|| |> | |> Hello, | |> | |> They do not need an operating system. They do not need AdaCore. They | |> do not need GNARL/GNULL. | | | |Hello. Would you care to elaborate please ? | |thanks." | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| Hello. Traditionally, older embedded Ada implementations did not need an operating system: the scheduling was performed by the Ada runtime executive without using something called an operating system (though from a completely theoretical application terminology, a pedant might call such an Ada runtime executive an operating system). AVR-(subset)Ada does not use an operating system. A RAVENSCAR implementation from Aonix does not bother with the overhead of an operating system. (Though people who insist on using an operating system can use an alternative product from Aonix.) AdaCore is not needed: AdaCore is not the universe of Ada implementations. By using some of the alternatives mentioned above, GNAT would be irrelevant and so would GNARL/GNULL. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-02-02 18:50 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-01-29 19:51 Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag RasikaSrinivasan 2009-01-29 22:52 ` Martyn Pike 2009-01-30 0:15 ` Jeffrey Creem 2009-01-30 7:35 ` Martyn Pike 2009-01-30 9:19 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development anon 2009-01-30 12:38 ` RasikaSrinivasan 2009-01-30 14:53 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 2009-01-30 15:10 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 2009-01-30 15:17 ` Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester 2009-02-02 15:32 ` Martyn Pike 2009-02-02 18:50 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
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