Yet another XML and Ada issue

Yet another XML and Ada issue

[Marius Amado Alves]

"RELAX NG seems a valuable alternative to XQuery et al." (Marius)

"No!

RELAX NG is an alternative schema model, whose use should be actively
discouraged. I believe that we should stay with standard XML schema. This is
one case where the World Wide Web Consortium can learn from Ada about
creation of standards in a coordinated manor. RELAX NG seems to be favored
by Sun and IBM people. In this case Microsoft is totally correct in
specifying XML schema. Unfortunately, Microsoft has not implemented Office
using the XML FO and SVG standards. If the European Economic Union were
smart, it would fund a pan European development of a European alternative to
Office based on XML standards. Presently and in the past, Microsoft has had
the extreme good fortune of having technologically incompetent competitors.

If there is to be any further discussion on this subject, it should probably
be moved [from ada-comment] to comp.lang.ada." (Bob Leif)

Even XSchema proponents agree that RELAX NG suceeds at being a more compact
notation for XML schemas, useful for writing such schemas when schema
transformation (e.g. via XSLT) is not required. If this is often the case as
I believe it is then RELAX NG surely has earn its place in the landscape of
XML technologies. Politics aside of course. I understand there are tools to
promote RELAX NG objects to XSchema's, so there's no technical issue really.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marius Amado Alves [mailto:amado.alves@netcabo.pt]
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:11 PM
To: Ada-Comment List
Subject: Re: [Ada-Comment] Database I/O (New Revision)

[XQuery et al. by Robert Leif]

This just made me realise how XML can be a step forward in the adoption of
the network data model (but see Aside 1). So that's additional ammunition to
consider the network model as a basis [for an Ada standard database
library]. However XML seems powerfull enough a
movement to create their own Ada standards, independently from any other
database-oriented effort.

Aside 1. Unfortunately in my opinion XML and it's zillion standards can be
also two steps backward in data manipulation, technically. And, even keeping
with XML, RELAX NG seems a valuable alternative to XQuery et al.

Aside 2. I should perhaps clarify the my definition of "network model" is
not in line with CODASYL, perhaps the only widely known one. My definition
is more pure. Untyped graphs as a basis, plus conventions to represent
complex structures (including typed graphs) in it. In one word, Mneson.
Incidently, I've just finished the convention for XML objects, and a tool to
convert a valid XML object to Mntext. I'll update the Mneson site soon with
this stuff.

Re: Yet another XML and Ada issue

[Georg Bauhaus]

Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote:
: "RELAX NG seems a valuable alternative to XQuery et al." (Marius)
: 
: "No!
: 
: RELAX NG is an alternative schema model, whose use should be actively
: discouraged.

Why?

A note on XML Schema types, they are far away from abstraction.
The "types" just happen to be the common C-like base types,
modelled with contemporary hardware in mind, and then some more
in the sense of Ada subtypes.

In RELAX NG, you can use any type library you desire, including
XML Schema types.
So given that specifying hardware oriented records is not the sole
purpose of XML markup, why restrict all XML use to the fixed and
large set of XML Schema? Besides, ASN.1 is quite good at moving
records around.


: Even XSchema proponents agree that RELAX NG suceeds at being a more compact
: notation for XML schemas, useful for writing such schemas when schema
: transformation (e.g. via XSLT) is not required.

There are two notations for RELAX NG, one uses XML, and can thus
be submitted to XSL Transformations. The other, compact notation,
can't immediately but of course there is an exact 1:1 mapping, and
tools to transform from compact to XML based and the other way round.


-- Georg

Re: Yet another XML and Ada issue

[Robert C. Leif]

What would happen if I suggested to this news group that Ada be
replaced by "a more compact notation" "useful for writing programs
when the use of ASIS and other tools are "not required."?

I admit that schema import statements are overly verbose. However,
standardization always has its costs. We have learned from Ada that
these costs are worthwhile. Schema maximizes readability and has range
checking and many other features very similar to Ada. In fact it its
possible to write schema following my style guide, FAKE ADA!
Bob Leif

Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message news:<c6gp4k$aog$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>...
> Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote:
> : "RELAX NG seems a valuable alternative to XQuery et al." (Marius)
> : 
> : "No!
> : 
> : RELAX NG is an alternative schema model, whose use should be actively
> : discouraged.
> 
> Why?
> 
> A note on XML Schema types, they are far away from abstraction.
> The "types" just happen to be the common C-like base types,
> modelled with contemporary hardware in mind, and then some more
> in the sense of Ada subtypes.
> 
> In RELAX NG, you can use any type library you desire, including
> XML Schema types.
> So given that specifying hardware oriented records is not the sole
> purpose of XML markup, why restrict all XML use to the fixed and
> large set of XML Schema? Besides, ASN.1 is quite good at moving
> records around.
> 
> 
> : Even XSchema proponents agree that RELAX NG suceeds at being a more compact
> : notation for XML schemas, useful for writing such schemas when schema
> : transformation (e.g. via XSLT) is not required.
> 
> There are two notations for RELAX NG, one uses XML, and can thus
> be submitted to XSL Transformations. The other, compact notation,
> can't immediately but of course there is an exact 1:1 mapping, and
> tools to transform from compact to XML based and the other way round.
> 
> 
> -- Georg

Re: Yet another XML and Ada issue

[Marius Amado Alves]

> What would happen if I suggested to this news group that Ada be
> replaced by "a more compact notation" "useful for writing programs
> when the use of ASIS and other tools are "not required."?

Ocasionally I do generate Ada from specialised notations.

But we're not really disagreeing here. I understand the importance of giving
ecumenical status to some standard, be it XSchema.

What is "FAKE ADA"?

Re: Yet another XML and Ada issue

[chris]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote:
> : "RELAX NG seems a valuable alternative to XQuery et al." (Marius)
> : 
> : "No!
> : 
> : RELAX NG is an alternative schema model, whose use should be actively
> : discouraged.
> 
> Why?

I don't know.  This argument is just silly.  Relax NG is more powerful 
than XSchema 1 and a lot less awkward.  I'm unsure if it is still so 
with XSchema 2 but I have little faith in the W3C anymore.  It has taken 
  a long time for them to modularise HTML and quite a few of the 
'standards' I've worked with are overly complicated and insufficient for 
what they say they are for.