Re: [announcement] SYSAPI and SYSSVC for Windows

[Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>]

Ekkehard Morgenstern <ekkehard.morgenstern@onlinehome.de> wrote:
: 
: "Georg Bauhaus" <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote:
:> :> Hm. So is it not true that they more or less have woven the shell and
:> :> the graphics subsystem into one thing?
:> : 
:> : Huh?? No.
:> 
:> I checked, not the shell but the Executive. From user mode to
:> kernel mode,
:> http://msdn.microsoft.com/archive/default.asp?url=/archive/en-us/dnarwbgen/html/msdn_movuser.asp
: 
: So what?!

I thought that the more the whole system becomes dependent on
the correct working of a graphics driver (module), the less
it is in accord with the principles of modular system design.

: Plus, you're talking about NT 4.0, which is a pink flying elephant
: that doesn't exist anymore. ;)

Except as a frequently used file server? (Be that the right thing
to do or not, reports have been given in this thread.)

: A graphics card driver can tear down the system anyway, whether GDI is
: in user or kernel mode. Or whatever you were alluding to.

Really? Will the LAN port connectivity of a system running
on top of a microkernel be affected by the failure of some
user mode graphics program?

:> Then there is a patent opportunity, so free OS communities will
:> have to consider 4D GUI components to stay competitive :-)
: 
: Don't make fun of it! 3D user interfaces will be considered "normal"
: in a couple of years.

Yes, and I wonder whether this will be more than Disney
animations, given the current lack of creativity in using
2D. ;-)

: In my own OS project (DELOS), I will also experiment with 3D
: user interfaces. 

Do you cooperate with graphics designers and with perception
experts?

: You don't really know what research is or has been going on in that
: area. I've already seen 3D GUI apps on SGI's over a decade ago, so
: it's not uncommon for software developers to invent things like that,
: I guess.

We shouldn't forget that we see things in 3D around us, except on
most computer screens.

: For example, imagine windows could have a flip side, or would be
: cubes or other bodies. With a flip side, in a word processor,
: for example, you could literally turn the pages of your document
: and write on every front and back page. 

That's not it. Boils down to 2D. What you don't have, currently,
is, e.g., hyperlinking other than cross references. I imagine a way of 
visualising things on a computer screen (or some such) that allows
users to poke in several dimensions. All I know in this direction
is, more or less, a 3D onto 2D projection of a file system, and
apparently game backgrounds.  Boring.


Do you remember Ford Prefect experiencing what it is like to
perceive in a virtual world, in the basement of a travel guide
publishers's sky scraper?

: Or you could move windows from back to front or sideways or out
: of view. Or you could be like in a room or sphere and rotate the
: view and hence get to have more things open at the same time.

Or have just one thing opened and see not just one surface of it.

: Just to project a 2D surface into 3D space alone doesn't make a 3D
: user interface. (that's related to the results I've seen of some
: 3D UI working group, which did just that)

Yes.

: Software piracy exists, so why should they not do something about it?

Question is, what should they be doing? Explaining, inviting, requesting?
Or supporting force?

: Microsoft doesn't imply anything. They said they will permit to run
: all kinds of apps on the next generation Windows kernel. So whether you use
: the secure or unsecure subsystem is your business alone.

No it isn't, presuming some data streaming software facts in the backwater
of DRM.  I have tried to hint at movies and Hollywood lobbyist Jack Valenti.

:> : Everything will be as it was before, except that there will be a new
:> : subsystem providing unsecure operation, while the core system will
:> : become secure.
:> 
:> Interesting wording, a little biased towards secure transactions
:> of money I guess?
: 
: Yes, of course. I'm very interested in secure transactions of money. <vbg>

Again, payment may be achieved through agreement on its necessity by
humans, or through technical force based on defamatory prejudice, or
based on possibly generalised single instances.

: If Microsoft serves as the motor of the industry, then why not?

Exactly because they have a chance of at last establishing the
common knowledge that producing computer software is work, and
as every work, needs payment.

: It will definitely create jobs. Software piracy never created any job.

As I said, the spread of PC software, by illegal copying, might have
quite significantly influenced the demand for computer software.
If everyone would have been forced to pay the license fees for DOS
and Word in the 80s, what would the number of personal computer users
have been? How many would use PCs today?
 
: As long as some people keep an eye on what they're doing and scream and
: ramble everytime they lift a finger, then all is well, and Microsoft
: bows to the wishes of the general public. ;)

They also "bow" to the demands of courts, which sentence them to
giving their software to schools at no cost. Well, what a great
opportunity for MS's marketing department, attracting people
in their childhood...  How may times have you heard people say
"Windows" and "PC" as if there were no other possible combination
of personal computer and operating system?

: IBM stopped the development of OS/2 and Visual Age for C++, that's just
: like someone throwing all their gold out of the window and laughing
: merrily that they've relieved themselves of such burden.

http://www-306.ibm.com/software/awdtools/vacpp/

The Mac version has been available as beta software. So, not thrown
out of the window, just two OSs less (OS/2, Windows), and at least two
OSs more (Mac and Linux/pSeries).

:> : You forget about WinAMP and all the free software on the market.
:> 
:> This excludes the server side from view.
:> What software is used to produce the streams?
: 
: There's also free streaming software, like Ogg Vorbis.

Sure, though there are few (portable etc) players...

: anyone can create an independent streaming format
: and write a set of client/server tools for it.

Can they? What is the upfront cost? Will the banks agree to support
yet another way of micro payment, if needed?

: Of course the industry has an interest in protecting their rights.
: You don't want everybody to drive with your own car too, do you?

I wouldn't mind if other car makers used the idea of a steering
wheel in their cars, too. Software patent lobbyists think otherwise.

:> Good "Old Europe". (An interesting variation of a dictum about Europe
:> by US DoD officials not long ago.)
: 
: Why, what did they say, the US DoD officials?

Old Europe. No Good.

: Is it really that much to buy just the stuff you need?

It is a question of percentage. I cannot squeeze a number different 
from 100 out of 100%. If you have spent nn% or your money on music, but
mm% time on listening to music, mm > nn is possible as long as
somehow you have enough CDs, some of which might be copies.
If you can't have CDs for mm% of time any longer, then you
will listen to less CDs, or you will buy less CDs. In the latter case,
the music industry will earn less.  What's likely?

: So, as an individual person, I'm free from any unlicensed or pirated
: content or software. And it wasn't hard at all. I simply don't buy
: the stuff that I cannot afford, nor do I use it.

Thats what I'm trying to say. You don't buy more than you can
afford. But people do in general listen to more than they can
afford. I don't think they are not willing to buy music they like,
its just a maladjusted price that keeps them from buying CDs instead
of coping.

: Well, some software manufacturers will see the need for dongles,
: and some don't. 

Why?

:> And: ACT produces Free Software, ...
:> ...  Where is the dongle? Will GNAT need "DRM"
:> hardware to work in "secure" mode?
: 
: GNAT is GPL'd and as such free licensed software.
: 
: That is, the license explicitly permits copying.

Yes. Why can they or other Free Software companies still operate a
seemingly profitable company without dongles, if so? (You have
mentioned support.)

:> But small companies usually have the time
:> to talk to their prospective customers before they hand over a
:> copy of their product.
: 
: So you think talking to the customer will reveal whether they will
: make a pirate copy of it?
: 
: I don't know what planet you've been living on in the past decades,
: but that method can work only if they have only very few customers.
: And that usually implies a large price.

We had been talking about small companies?
What is your estimate of the number of customers that small
computer companies usually have?
And it need not be large prices for all products, the Comeau compiler
is the best thing I have ever seen for a two digit price.

:> In the long run the industry has grown.
: 
: Of course, but they have to see the advantages as well.

So do we, as customers.

:> : I think it's a matter of personal maturity whether you let 
:> : other people have their share of profits.
:> 
:> Yes. Exactly. That is why I believe in honest business, not
:> in threat, force, and costly safeguard.
: 
: Unfortunately, not all people on the customer and/or manufacturer's
: side think like you.

How many don't?



-- Georg