Ada for a programming newb.

Ada for a programming newb.

[Kyle Root]

I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me.  I've started to learn Java
(and I actually understood most of it) but just gave up cause I found more
interesting things to do and it seemed that I never could make time for it.
But now I've got plenty of time and want to learn to program again.
There doesn't seem to be as much documentation (so I'm a little confused as
to how one'd go about learning it) as in some other languages but it is
very easy to read and looks very pascal-like (I know because I've been
looking at quite a few languages).
What do you think?
Thanks,
Kyle

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <L949b.394$U11.181@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com>, Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> writes:
> I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me.  I've started to learn Java
> (and I actually understood most of it) but just gave up cause I found more
> interesting things to do and it seemed that I never could make time for it.
> But now I've got plenty of time and want to learn to program again.

A salient quality of Ada is that Ada is more likely than many other
languages to detect programming errors at compile-time.  While there
are certainly errors that no compiler could detect, little details
like dividing the number of apples by the time of day are readily
detected by Ada compilers.

> There doesn't seem to be as much documentation (so I'm a little confused as
> to how one'd go about learning it) as in some other languages but it is
> very easy to read and looks very pascal-like (I know because I've been
> looking at quite a few languages).
> What do you think?

There are many good books for learning Ada, but you don't need more than
one to start.

	http://www.adapower.com/

has a section about Ada books, and sections about many other aspects
of Ada as well.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Ludovic Brenta]

Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> writes:

> I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me.  I've started to learn Java
> (and I actually understood most of it) but just gave up cause I found more
> interesting things to do and it seemed that I never could make time for it.
> But now I've got plenty of time and want to learn to program again.
> There doesn't seem to be as much documentation (so I'm a little confused as
> to how one'd go about learning it) as in some other languages but it is
> very easy to read and looks very pascal-like (I know because I've been
> looking at quite a few languages).
> What do you think?
> Thanks,
> Kyle

Programming is inherently difficult.  Among other lessons, experienced
programmers have learned that "the devil is in the details".  You may
get the general picture right, but you may (and indeed will) make
small mistakes in the details and your programs will fail as a result.
Different languages handle this problem differently.  Some languages
choose to be lax and forgiving to the beginning programmers, so as to
appear to be easy-going.  The price to pay is that they do not detect
your mistakes, and you have to look for them yourself when your
program fails for obscure reasons (which is called "debugging").  This
is for example the case of C and, to a lesser extent, Java.

By contrast, Ada is an old, picky lady who reviews your work very
closely and tries to point out your mistakes (she was the first
programmer in history, so she should know a good program from a bad
one :) ).  If you choose Ada, you will naturally learn to think
straight, and to be precise and systematic.  Those are good skills for
a programmer, which you can later apply to all programming languages.
I contend that an Ada programmer can adapt to pretty much any language
very easily, but the converse is not true.  If you start with Java,
the learning may at first seem easier but in fact you will learn less.
I guess it is up to you to decide which style suits you best.

There are intermediates between Java and Ada.  I would list just a few
languages here, but there are many more that you may want to explore.
From the most lax to the most strict:

C, Java, C++, Pascal, Modula-3, Ada.

If after reading this you are still interested in Ada, there is an
excellent book by John English, which is by the author's own words
"aimed (...) squarely at the beginning programmer learning Ada 95 as a
first language".  Here is the URL:
http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je/adacraft/.

Also look at the following portal sites, which will direct you to
additional resources:

http://www.adaic.com
http://www.adapower.com
http://www.adaworld.com

Hope this helps.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Jarimatti Valkonen]

Kyle Root wrote:
> What do you think?
(What would you expect in comp.lang.ada? :) )

Judging from my experiences, I would suggest Ada. I've been learning
(with various rates of success) C++, Scheme, Perl and now Ada. I'm only
a beginner in Ada, but it seems to be my language of choise for any
serious programming.

Why? Because the strict rules of the language, which protect me from
stupid mistakes (you can't mix velocity with force unintentionally).
Because of easy extendability (packages). And, most important of all,
because of the state of mind that things should be done well in the
first place.

I also suggest for starting (somebody mentioned it already):
<URL: http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je/adacraft/preface.htm>, as I am
currently reading it and have found it quite good.

-- 
Jarimatti

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Isaac Gouy]

Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> wrote
> I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me. 

Ada has many excellent qualities.
IMHO a smaller language is a better tool for learning about
programming.

Let me suggest Oberon-2. It's a small precise language - you'll be
able to learn the keywords and operators quickly and the compiler will
tell you exactly where you made a mistake in the program. You'll find
it readable. You'll be able to learn about procedural programming and
object-oriented programming.
After you've mastered Oberon-2, you'll have a sound base for
appreciating the additional things that Ada provides.

You can download an excellent non-commercial compiler here:
http://www.excelsior-usa.com/xdsx86.html


Neither Ada nor Oberon-2 will help you to learn about functional
programming. I don't have any personal experience with Scheme but
there are several excellent online text books and the Dr Scheme is
reputed to be excellent. At some point I'd recommend you take a look
at Clean or Haskell to broaden you're ideas about what a programming
language can be like.


> There doesn't seem to be as much documentation 
Always try to find language books through the local library - often
they can get them through inter-library loans from other libraries.


best wishes, Isaac

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Luke A. Guest]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:31:46 -0700, Isaac Gouy wrote:

> Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> wrote
>> I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me. 
> 
> Ada has many excellent qualities.
> IMHO a smaller language is a better tool for learning about
> programming.

I disagree. A lot of people have learnt Pascal first, I think that is a
mistake because you get to a point where you are limited by the language.
Ada will give the beginner 1) an excellent introduction to developing
functional code that is easy to read/write and is just nice & 2) will also
provide a language that will not piss you off because it won't do what you
want.

I learned Basic/C/m68k Assembly/C++/Pascal/Ada9X and have dabbled in other
languages since. I didn't like Pascal too much, but Ada is much nicer; so
many features that help rather than hinder.

> Neither Ada nor Oberon-2 will help you to learn about functional
> programming. I don't have any personal experience with Scheme but
> there are several excellent online text books and the Dr Scheme is
> reputed to be excellent. At some point I'd recommend you take a look
> at Clean or Haskell to broaden you're ideas about what a programming
> language can be like.

Forget about about functional/logic programming languages, it's generally
really strange people who *get* these. They're too odd - i.e.
mathematical/formal, which isn't as natural as "normal" programming
languages.
 
>> There doesn't seem to be as much documentation 
> Always try to find language books through the local library - often
> they can get them through inter-library loans from other libraries.

I have Jan Skansholm's book on Ada9X, there is the reference manual online
(www.adapower.com ??)

Luke.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Luke A. Guest wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:31:46 -0700, Isaac Gouy wrote:
>>Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> wrote
>>
>>>I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me. 
>>
>>Ada has many excellent qualities.
>>IMHO a smaller language is a better tool for learning about
>>programming.
> 
> I disagree. A lot of people have learnt Pascal first, I think that is a
...

As you can see, it is hard to get agreement on a language (its
like getting people to agree on text editors!) Learning Ada
can be fun.

The best way to get started is to start with simple programming
assignments (using good books). Don't try to do too much at
first. There will be plenty of time to branch out later!

You might take some old BASIC book from the library, and
try to program those assignments in Ada. Once you master
the basics, you can progressively stretch your wings.

-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[chris]

Luke A. Guest wrote:
> 
> Forget about about functional/logic programming languages, it's generally
> really strange people who *get* these. They're too odd - i.e.
> mathematical/formal, which isn't as natural as "normal" programming
> languages.

I disagree.  It is true that most functional languages are stuck in an 
academic hole, largely because academics get carried away with how nice 
Factorial looks or the aesthetics of the typing system  (Scream "WTF 
else can you do with it?" get's tales of how it elegantly expresses the 
generation of Fibonacci numbers... wow! ;) ).  That's a shame, there are 
a few functional languages out there that could be used for building 
complex applications, it's just no one bothers writing real apps in 
them.  No one bothers writing real apps in them because there are no 
libraries aimed at real apps.  No one develops libraries aimed at real 
apps because they don't develop real apps...

Erlang is a very good functional language, which has a distributed 
programming model easier to use than Adas'.  If it had gui libraries I'd 
probably use it a lot more than Ada, but they're all old and people 
haven't updated them.  Erlang is used a lot for other things though, 
especially in the communications sector (where it was born, not some 
Academic Factorially Challenged research project).


Chris

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Mark Lorenzen]

"Luke A. Guest" <laguest@abyss2-nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:

[snip]

>
> Forget about about functional/logic programming languages, it's generally
> really strange people who *get* these. They're too odd - i.e.
> mathematical/formal, which isn't as natural as "normal" programming
> languages.
>  

I very strongly disagree with this statement. Functional programming
is the essence of programming and the absolutely most natural way of
describing how to solve a problem.

You can learn the philosophy of functional programming and then be a
good programmer in any language or you can learn an imperative
language and be stuck in your "programming-by-side-effect" way of
thinking.

In functional programming you concentrate on the problem and it's
solution.

[snip]

- Mark Lorenzen

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Hyman Rosen]

Mark Lorenzen wrote:
> I very strongly disagree with this statement. Functional programming
> is the essence of programming and the absolutely most natural way of
> describing how to solve a problem.
> 
> You can learn the philosophy of functional programming and then be a
> good programmer in any language or you can learn an imperative
> language and be stuck in your "programming-by-side-effect" way of
> thinking.

What rubbish! "Programming-by-side-effect" has been the essence of
computing from the very beginning, from Turing machines to memory-
mapped video displays. FP is a completely alien concept, having no
intuitive correspondence to anything in the real world to make it
amenable to understanding.

When I go to the barber, the result is not a new copy of me with
shorter hair. It's the same old me witha side-effect applied.

By the way, the first and second prize winners of the 2003 ICFP
contest used C++. The Judges' Prize winners used C++ and Dylan.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[chris]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> What rubbish! "Programming-by-side-effect" has been the essence of
> computing from the very beginning, from Turing machines to memory-
> mapped video displays. FP is a completely alien concept, having no
> intuitive correspondence to anything in the real world to make it
> amenable to understanding.

What rubbish!  Computing started with maths and is a form of 
mathematics.  A great deal of maths is side effect free.

> When I go to the barber, the result is not a new copy of me with
> shorter hair. It's the same old me witha side-effect applied.

How do you know?

> By the way, the first and second prize winners of the 2003 ICFP
> contest used C++. The Judges' Prize winners used C++ and Dylan.

And in previous years it was functional languages (Dylan is highly 
functional).  That only shows some languages are better suited than 
others to certain problems.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Hyman Rosen]

chris wrote:
> What rubbish!  Computing started with maths and is a form of 
> mathematics.  A great deal of maths is side effect free.

Computing started in the 1600s when Blaise Pascal invented
an adding machine. It used side effects (movable wheels) to
do its work.

<http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/story088.htm>

Those who do not learn from history are apt to make silly
statements about it.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

>chris wrote:
>> What rubbish!  Computing started with maths and is a form of 
>> mathematics.  A great deal of maths is side effect free.
>
>Computing started in the 1600s when Blaise Pascal invented
>an adding machine.

Nonsense. *Machine* supported computed started with the Abacus. At
least.

>It used side effects (movable wheels) to do its work.

Well, every calculation on modern machines causes at least one
side-effect. It moves electrons.


Vinzent.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Vinzent Hoefler wrote:

>Nonsense. *Machine* supported computed started with the Abacus. At

s/computed/computing/


Vinzent.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-09-19, chris <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
>> When I go to the barber, the result is not a new copy of me with
>> shorter hair. It's the same old me witha side-effect applied.

Huh? What is the real reason you go to the barber if the hair cut is
only a side effect ;-)

Preben

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Stephane Richard]

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Comfy Chair, nice conversation ?   hehehehe

-- 
St�phane Richard
Senior Software and Technology Supervisor
http://www.totalweb-inc.com
For all your hosting and related needs
"Preben Randhol" <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message
news:slrnbmm903.q2g.randhol+abuse@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no...
> On 2003-09-19, chris <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > Hyman Rosen wrote:
> >
> >> When I go to the barber, the result is not a new copy of me with
> >> shorter hair. It's the same old me witha side-effect applied.
>
> Huh? What is the real reason you go to the barber if the hair cut is
> only a side effect ;-)
>
> Preben

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Hyman Rosen]

Stephane Richard wrote:
> Comfy Chair, nice conversation ?   hehehehe

My three-year old son goes to a children's barber.
He gets to sit in a chair shaped like a racecar,
watch a video of his choice, and usually gets to buy
a little toy afterwards. We should have it so good!

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Frank J. Lhota]

"Hyman Rosen" <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote in message
news:4zuab.5439$U6.3722@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...

> When I go to the barber, the result is not a new copy of me with
> shorter hair. It's the same old me witha side-effect applied.

Actually, the algorithm used by your barber is as follows (in C++)

    CPerson *NewRosen = new CPerson( *HymanRosen );

    NewRosen->CutHair( /* To */ desiredLength );

    delete HymanRosen;
    HymanRosen = NewRosen;

The reason you never noticed this before is due to the quality of the copy
method ;)

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:51:23 GMT, "Frank J. Lhota"
<NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote:

>"Hyman Rosen" <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote in message
>news:4zuab.5439$U6.3722@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
>
>> When I go to the barber, the result is not a new copy of me with
>> shorter hair. It's the same old me witha side-effect applied.
>
>Actually, the algorithm used by your barber is as follows (in C++)
>
>    CPerson *NewRosen = new CPerson( *HymanRosen );

Yep, each barber has a storage pool in his cellar with a giant
refrigerator where it keeps human bodies to allocate ...

>    NewRosen->CutHair( /* To */ desiredLength );
>
>    delete HymanRosen;

Mmm, I think it is:

HymanRosen->Send (&HannibalLector);

Cutting hairs (at least here in Germany) could not repay the costs of
fresh flesh, so he definitely sells the rests to Hannibal! (:-))

>    HymanRosen = NewRosen;
>
>The reason you never noticed this before is due to the quality of the copy
>method ;)

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[chris]

Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

> Mmm, I think it is:
> 
> HymanRosen->Send (&HannibalLector);
> 
> Cutting hairs (at least here in Germany) could not repay the costs of
> fresh flesh, so he definitely sells the rests to Hannibal! (:-))

Haven't you got a McDonalds in Germany ;)

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:04:16 +0100, chris <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>
>> Mmm, I think it is:
>> 
>> HymanRosen->Send (&HannibalLector);
>> 
>> Cutting hairs (at least here in Germany) could not repay the costs of
>> fresh flesh, so he definitely sells the rests to Hannibal! (:-))
>
>Haven't you got a McDonalds in Germany ;)

Yes! But it is actually more expensive (per kg) than meat. So I
suppose, that it has a sufficient part of crude oil in there! (:-))

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Stephane Richard]

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"Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote in message
news:4oqtmv44h1adt761cic84f45rkj9eeg483@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:04:16 +0100, chris <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> >
> >> Mmm, I think it is:
> >>
> >> HymanRosen->Send (&HannibalLector);
> >>
> >> Cutting hairs (at least here in Germany) could not repay the costs of
> >> fresh flesh, so he definitely sells the rests to Hannibal! (:-))
> >
> >Haven't you got a McDonalds in Germany ;)
>
> Yes! But it is actually more expensive (per kg) than meat. So I
> suppose, that it has a sufficient part of crude oil in there! (:-))
>
> ---
> Regards,
> Dmitry Kazakov
> www.dmitry-kazakov.de

And how the next obvious question...which is worst?  that crude oil or the
original ingredients? ;-)
-- 
St�phane Richard
Senior Software and Technology Supervisor
http://www.totalweb-inc.com
For all your hosting and related needs

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Jeffrey Carter]

Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

> Mmm, I think it is:
> 
> HymanRosen->Send (&HannibalLector);
> 
> Cutting hairs (at least here in Germany) could not repay the costs of
> fresh flesh, so he definitely sells the rests to Hannibal! (:-))

No, he puts the old Rosen in the refrigerator in the basement, to be 
used in the future on another customer.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"C++ is like jamming a helicopter inside a Miata
and expecting some sort of improvement."
Drew Olbrich
51

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

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"Jeffrey Carter" <spam@spam.com> a �crit dans le message de news:TbIbb.2618$gR1.1025@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> No, he puts the old Rosen in the refrigerator in the basement, to be
> used in the future on another customer.
>
Please bear in mind in that discussion that Rosen is an overloaded name, with a very
different parameter profile.... ;-)

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
           J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Jeffrey Carter]

Jean-Pierre Rosen wrote:

> "Jeffrey Carter" <spam@spam.com> a �crit dans le message de news:TbIbb.2618$gR1.1025@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> 
>>No, he puts the old Rosen in the refrigerator in the basement, to be
>>used in the future on another customer.
> 
> Please bear in mind in that discussion that Rosen is an overloaded name, with a very
> different parameter profile.... ;-)

To us, yes. But to C++, a pointer is a pointer, so the barber can treat 
all Rosens the same.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"I've got to stay here, but there's no reason
why you folks shouldn't go out into the lobby
until this thing blows over."
Horse Feathers
50

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-09-23, Jeffrey Carter <spam@spam.com> wrote:
> To us, yes. But to C++, a pointer is a pointer, so the barber can treat 
> all Rosens the same.

Or end up cutting what the Rosen pointer may points at after
Rosen escaped the barber shop quite suddenly. :-)

Preben

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Jeffrey Carter]

Luke A. Guest wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:31:46 -0700, Isaac Gouy wrote:
> 
> 
>>Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> wrote
>>
>>>I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me. 
>>
>>Ada has many excellent qualities.
>>IMHO a smaller language is a better tool for learning about
>>programming.
> 
> 
> I disagree. A lot of people have learnt Pascal first, I think that is a
> mistake because you get to a point where you are limited by the language.
> Ada will give the beginner 1) an excellent introduction to developing
> functional code that is easy to read/write and is just nice & 2) will also
> provide a language that will not piss you off because it won't do what you
> want.

In a controlled experiment at West Point, Ada was shown to be a better 
1st language than Pascal.

Pascal was a pretty good language for its intended use (teaching 
programming basics) and its time (c. 1970, same as C, which is not 
nearly as well designed). Nowadays, Ada is a better language.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate."
Monty Python's the Meaning of Life
56

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Isaac Gouy]

Jeffrey Carter <spam@spam.com> wrote 
> >>Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> wrote
> >>
> >>>I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me. 
> >>
> >>Ada has many excellent qualities.
> >>IMHO a smaller language is a better tool for learning about
> >>programming.
> > 
> > 
> > I disagree. A lot of people have learnt Pascal first, I think that is a
> > mistake because you get to a point where you are limited by the language.
> > Ada will give the beginner 1) an excellent introduction to developing
> > functional code that is easy to read/write and is just nice & 2) will also
> > provide a language that will not piss you off because it won't do what you
> > want.
> 
> In a controlled experiment at West Point, Ada was shown to be a better 
> 1st language than Pascal.

My guess is that Kyle will be self-teaching from a book or online docs
- were those the requirements of the controlled experiment?

Out of curiousity, did anyone here learn Ada as a first language?

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Isaac Gouy]

My suggestion was Oberon-2 not Pascal, there is a difference ;-)


"Luke A. Guest" <laguest@abyss2-nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.09.18.19.33.45.156109@abyss2-nospam.demon.co.uk>...
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:31:46 -0700, Isaac Gouy wrote:
> 
> > Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> wrote
> >> I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me. 
> > 
> > Ada has many excellent qualities.
> > IMHO a smaller language is a better tool for learning about
> > programming.
> 
> I disagree. A lot of people have learnt Pascal first, I think that is a
> mistake because you get to a point where you are limited by the language.
> Ada will give the beginner 1) an excellent introduction to developing
> functional code that is easy to read/write and is just nice & 2) will also
> provide a language that will not piss you off because it won't do what you
> want.
> I learned Basic/C/m68k Assembly/C++/Pascal/Ada9X and have dabbled in other
> languages since. I didn't like Pascal too much, but Ada is much nicer; so
> many features that help rather than hinder.
> 
> > Neither Ada nor Oberon-2 will help you to learn about functional
> > programming. I don't have any personal experience with Scheme but
> > there are several excellent online text books and the Dr Scheme is
> > reputed to be excellent. At some point I'd recommend you take a look
> > at Clean or Haskell to broaden you're ideas about what a programming
> > language can be like.
> 
> Forget about about functional/logic programming languages, it's generally
> really strange people who *get* these. They're too odd - i.e.
> mathematical/formal, which isn't as natural as "normal" programming
> languages.
>  
> >> There doesn't seem to be as much documentation 
> > Always try to find language books through the local library - often
> > they can get them through inter-library loans from other libraries.
> 
> I have Jan Skansholm's book on Ada9X, there is the reference manual online
> (www.adapower.com ??)
> 
> Luke.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Luke A. Guest]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:09:30 -0700, Isaac Gouy wrote:

> My suggestion was Oberon-2 not Pascal, there is a difference ;-)

Yes, but if you noticed where I placed my text, there is context there.

Luke.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Isaac Gouy]

"Luke A. Guest" <laguest@abyss2-nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote 
> > My suggestion was Oberon-2 not Pascal, there is a difference ;-)
> Yes, but if you noticed where I placed my text, there is context there.

If you were commenting about the generalization smaller languages =
easier to learn then I'm guilty as charged ;-)
(No doubt there are some small languages that are more difficult to
learn.)

'being limited by the language' can be an irritating. On the other
hand picking up a new language seems like part of a larger learning
process - seeing the same kinds of iteration, the same algorithmic
structures, in slightly different form helps you to move from the
specific syntax to more general ideas about programming.

In that sense, pushing to the limits of a programming language, and
then transfering those skills to a bigger language seems beneficial.

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Chad R. Meiners]

"Isaac Gouy" <igouy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ce7ef1c8.0309180931.2f236163@posting.google.com...
> Kyle Root <kappy044@myrealbox.com> wrote
> > I was wondering if Ada would be suitable for me.
>
> Ada has many excellent qualities.
> IMHO a smaller language is a better tool for learning about
> programming.
>
> Let me suggest Oberon-2. It's a small precise language - you'll be
> able to learn the keywords and operators quickly and the compiler will
> tell you exactly where you made a mistake in the program. You'll find
> it readable. You'll be able to learn about procedural programming and
> object-oriented programming.

How is this any different than starting with a subset of Ada?  One of Ada's
excellent features is that you can program in the subset of the language
that you feel comfortable with.  Students can branch out onto new features
in a comfortable and consistent manner.

-CRM

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Isaac Gouy]

"Chad R. Meiners" <crmeiners@hotmail.com> wrote 
> > Let me suggest Oberon-2. It's a small precise language - you'll be
> > able to learn the keywords and operators quickly and the compiler will
> > tell you exactly where you made a mistake in the program. You'll find
> > it readable. You'll be able to learn about procedural programming and
> > object-oriented programming.
> 
> How is this any different than starting with a subset of Ada?  One of Ada's
> excellent features is that you can program in the subset of the language
> that you feel comfortable with.  Students can branch out onto new features
> in a comfortable and consistent manner.

With well-designed teaching materials to demarcate a subset of Ada it
would be very similar. Without that help...

Re: Ada for a programming newb.

[Anders Wirzenius]

"Kyle Root" <kappy044@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:L949b.394$U11.181@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> There doesn't seem to be as much documentation (so I'm a little
confused as
> to how one'd go about learning it) as in some other languages but it
is
> very easy to read and looks very pascal-like (I know because I've
been
> looking at quite a few languages).
> What do you think?

Others have suggested links to introductions of Ada,
here is another (Ada and GNAT):
http://cs.nyu.edu/courses/spring01/G22.2130-001/adaintro.html

Anders