Re: One language environment don't have future

[kcline17@hotmail.com (Kevin Cline)]

Karel Miklav <karel@inetis.spppambait.com> wrote in message news:<JzJ0a.667$wK6.41550@news.siol.net>...
> Kevin Cline wrote:
> > Karel Miklav wrote:
> >> Stephen Leake wrote:
> >>> UML is just another "computer tongues". It's partly graphical,
> >>> but that's not really such a big deal!
> >> 
> >> The IT tower of Babel may never be built, but UML and tools around
> >> it are a step forward.
> > 
> > The software development community seems to disagree. After many
> > years on the market, graphical programming systems are still not
> > widely used.
> 
> I agree, but it proves nothing. And it's shure not the case in my business.
> 
> >> And there is a difference between modeling and coding; I guess
> >> we're not going to rewrite data structures in all sorts of
> >> languages forever?
> > 
> > In any interesting computer program there are thousands of details
> > that must be specified.  The details don't come from the programming
> > language, they come from the customer. The programmer's job is to
> > translate the customer's wants into some sort of executable
> > specification.  Regardless of programming language, that job will
> > remain, and it will require close attention to detail.
> 
> Ok, but how popular are assemblers today? Modeling tools are able to
> produce code out of a skillfuly crafted model in any language and 
> they'll sonner or later have a Compile button. 

Right, but for real-world problems there is an essential complexity
that is not readily expressed graphically.  The boxes and arrows
take up lots of screen space but don't provide much information.
The important information is captured by rules like:

Set shipping date two days after order date, skipping weekends and 
bank holidays.

If the customer lives in a jurisdiction where we have a retail store,
then add sales tax for that jurisdiction.



> And you will be able to 
> tweak the generated code as much as you want. 

I don't want to.  Then I'm stuck working in two languages and worse,
have to understand the mapping between them.

> It's not that I'm interested in science fiction, 
> I'm just asking myself what benefit do I 
> have from learning ada or is it just an obstacle from being a part of a 
> bigger picture?

No, it's a necessary step in being able to see the big picture.  You
won't
have the big picture until you know several languages and have written
a considerable amount of code in each.

> > And some programmers will be vastly better at the job than others.
> 
> You're talking about automata, right?

No, automata have little or no understanding of the external world.  
They have no idea what it means when someone says "be sure to add
sales tax where applicable."

> 
> > So far, the best programmers haven't found much value in graphical
> > programming environments.
> 
> Are you speaking in the name of the Best Programmers Association? I 
> might be impolite but you can't pull cards out of your sleeve like that, 
> you're not Colin Powell, man :)

I mean that they aren't very popular, and seem to be even less popular
among the more effective developers I know.
 
> Kevin, It's not about disagreing with you, I just wish to see some
> progress in IT. And I'm little frustrated as I can't change the tiniest
> bit :)

Sure you can.  You can build a graphical programming environment
that really works.  Or you can design a better language.  I can think
of three very popular languages, C++, Perl, and Java, that were
essentially created by a single person.