GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Hibou57]

Hola, Hello, Salam lik,

In the GNAT standard librarie source code, one may see in the "System"
package specification (system.ads), a section commented as "System
Implementation Parameters".

Here is what it contains :

>   --------------------------------------
>   -- System Implementation Parameters --
>   --------------------------------------
>
>   --  These parameters provide information about the target that is used
>   --  by the compiler. They are in the private part of System, where they
>   --  can be accessed using the special circuitry in the Targparm unit
>   --  whose source should be consulted for more detailed descriptions
>   --  of the individual switch values.
>
>   AAMP                      : constant Boolean := False;
>   Backend_Divide_Checks     : constant Boolean := False;
>   Backend_Overflow_Checks   : constant Boolean := False;
>   Command_Line_Args         : constant Boolean := True;
>   Configurable_Run_Time     : constant Boolean := True;
>   Denorm                    : constant Boolean := True;
>   Duration_32_Bits          : constant Boolean := False;
>   Exit_Status_Supported     : constant Boolean := True;
>   Fractional_Fixed_Ops      : constant Boolean := False;
>   Frontend_Layout           : constant Boolean := False;
>   Functions_Return_By_DSP   : constant Boolean := False;
>   Machine_Overflows         : constant Boolean := False;
>   Machine_Rounds            : constant Boolean := True;
>   OpenVMS                   : constant Boolean := False;
>   Signed_Zeros              : constant Boolean := True;
>   Stack_Check_Default       : constant Boolean := False;
>   Stack_Check_Probes        : constant Boolean := False;
>   Support_64_Bit_Divides    : constant Boolean := True;
>   Support_Aggregates        : constant Boolean := True;
>   Support_Composite_Assign  : constant Boolean := True;
>   Support_Composite_Compare : constant Boolean := True;
>   Support_Long_Shifts       : constant Boolean := True;
>   Suppress_Standard_Library : constant Boolean := True;
>   Use_Ada_Main_Program_Name : constant Boolean := False;
>   ZCX_By_Default            : constant Boolean := False;
>   GCC_ZCX_Support           : constant Boolean := False;
>   Front_End_ZCX_Support     : constant Boolean := False;

Unfortinately, I was not able to found any formal documentation about
the meaning of each of this parameter. I may guess some meanings, but
I do not want to guess, I rather want to be sure.

I've found one the web some mailing list where people try to guess and
play with it, but without beeing sure of anything (not better than
me). By the way, there seems to be some interesting project of OS
kernels written in Ada ;) Good! (good idea to use Ada for this kind of
stuff... certainly better than C).

I would like, if some people know, to have some suggestions to get
formal documentations about those parameters.

I think this may be an interresting subject, not solely for me ;)

Thanks to all boys and girls around here :)

Read you soon...

Yannick

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Jeffrey R. Carter]

Hibou57 wrote:
>>
>>   --  These parameters provide information about the target that is used
>>   --  by the compiler. They are in the private part of System, where they
>>   --  can be accessed using the special circuitry in the Targparm unit
>>   --  whose source should be consulted for more detailed descriptions
>>   --  of the individual switch values.
> 
> I would like, if some people know, to have some suggestions to get
> formal documentations about those parameters.

Did you look in Targparm as suggested?

-- 
Jeff Carter
"I'm a kike, a yid, a heebie, a hook nose! I'm Kosher,
Mum! I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!"
Monty Python's Life of Brian
77

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Hibou57]

On 14 fév, 23:27, "Jeffrey R. Carter"
<spam.jrcarter....@acm.nospam.org> wrote:
>
> Did you look in Targparm as suggested?
>
> --
> Jeff Carter
> "I'm a kike, a yid, a heebie, a hook nose! I'm Kosher,
> Mum! I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!"
> Monty Python's Life of Brian
> 77

Well... this file does not exist in my installation (which is MinGW,
candidate version, on WindowsXP)

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Robert A Duff]

Hibou57 <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes:

> Here is what it contains :
>
>>   --------------------------------------
>>   -- System Implementation Parameters --
>>   --------------------------------------
>>
>>   --  These parameters provide information about the target that is used
>>   --  by the compiler. They are in the private part of System, where they
>>   --  can be accessed using the special circuitry in the Targparm unit
>>   --  whose source should be consulted for more detailed descriptions
>>   --  of the individual switch values.

> I would like, if some people know, to have some suggestions to get
> formal documentations about those parameters.

The part about "Targparm unit" means you can find documentation in the
files targparm.ads and targparm.adb in the compiler sources.

But modifying these things will most likely break something,
unless you really know what you're doing.

- Bob

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Robert A Duff]

Hibou57 <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes:

> On 14 f�v, 23:27, "Jeffrey R. Carter"
> <spam.jrcarter....@acm.nospam.org> wrote:
>>
>> Did you look in Targparm as suggested?
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Carter
>> "I'm a kike, a yid, a heebie, a hook nose! I'm Kosher,
>> Mum! I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!"
>> Monty Python's Life of Brian
>> 77
>
> Well... this file does not exist in my installation (which is MinGW,
> candidate version, on WindowsXP)

It's part of the compiler sources.

- Bob

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[anon]

Gnat uses the "System Implementation Parameters" as a Initialization 
file that the user can alter without recompiling the compiler. It 
one reason that the file "System.ads" must be in the RTS search 
path.  If you move or alter those parameter list too much the compiler 
will not work. 

That is, the GNAT compiler first reads in the command line, then calls 
the "Targparm.Get_Target_Parameters" to find a load "System.ads" and 
process those Boolean flags. Then the compile continue with compiling 
the source code.
 

There is no documentation on these Boolean flags because they are use 
by Adacore (GNAT creators) in house. Also some are slowly be removed 
while others are becoming non-operational.

In <74711a57-e7f2-4a11-90bc-865a3fd07d5d@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Hibou57 <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes:
>Hola, Hello, Salam lik,
>
>In the GNAT standard librarie source code, one may see in the "System"
>package specification (system.ads), a section commented as "System
>Implementation Parameters".
>
>Here is what it contains :
>
>>   --------------------------------------
>>   -- System Implementation Parameters --
>>   --------------------------------------
>>
>>   --  These parameters provide information about the target that is used
>>   --  by the compiler. They are in the private part of System, where they
>>   --  can be accessed using the special circuitry in the Targparm unit
>>   --  whose source should be consulted for more detailed descriptions
>>   --  of the individual switch values.
>>
>>   AAMP                      : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Backend_Divide_Checks     : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Backend_Overflow_Checks   : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Command_Line_Args         : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Configurable_Run_Time     : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Denorm                    : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Duration_32_Bits          : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Exit_Status_Supported     : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Fractional_Fixed_Ops      : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Frontend_Layout           : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Functions_Return_By_DSP   : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Machine_Overflows         : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Machine_Rounds            : constant Boolean := True;
>>   OpenVMS                   : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Signed_Zeros              : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Stack_Check_Default       : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Stack_Check_Probes        : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Support_64_Bit_Divides    : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Support_Aggregates        : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Support_Composite_Assign  : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Support_Composite_Compare : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Support_Long_Shifts       : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Suppress_Standard_Library : constant Boolean := True;
>>   Use_Ada_Main_Program_Name : constant Boolean := False;
>>   ZCX_By_Default            : constant Boolean := False;
>>   GCC_ZCX_Support           : constant Boolean := False;
>>   Front_End_ZCX_Support     : constant Boolean := False;
>
>Unfortinately, I was not able to found any formal documentation about
>the meaning of each of this parameter. I may guess some meanings, but
>I do not want to guess, I rather want to be sure.
>
>I've found one the web some mailing list where people try to guess and
>play with it, but without beeing sure of anything (not better than
>me). By the way, there seems to be some interesting project of OS
>kernels written in Ada ;) Good! (good idea to use Ada for this kind of
>stuff... certainly better than C).
>
>I would like, if some people know, to have some suggestions to get
>formal documentations about those parameters.
>
>I think this may be an interresting subject, not solely for me ;)
>
>Thanks to all boys and girls around here :)
>
>Read you soon...
>
>Yannick

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Georg Bauhaus]

anon wrote:

> Gnat uses the "System Implementation Parameters" as a Initialization
> file

> There is no documentation on these Boolean flags because they are use 
> by Adacore (GNAT creators) in house. Also some are slowly be removed 
> while others are becoming non-operational.

As noted in package System, readers should consult the package Targparm.
Indeed, it has quite a lot of documentation talking about these
flags, AFAICS. The package Targparm is part of the publicly available
compiler sources. (I'm not familiar with the innards of GNAT; however,
is usually suffices to read the documentation comments near any
declaration in GNAT sources in order to learn where to find more.
One case is when declarations are grouped under a common description,
such as this one:

   --------------------------------------
   -- System Implementation Parameters --
   --------------------------------------

   --  These parameters provide information about the target that is used
   --  by the compiler. They are in the private part of System, where they
   --  can be accessed using the special circuitry in the Targparm unit
   --  whose source should be consulted for more detailed descriptions
   --  of the individual switch values.

   Backend_Divide_Checks     : constant Boolean := False;
   Backend_Overflow_Checks   : constant Boolean := False;
   Command_Line_Args         : constant Boolean := True;
   Configurable_Run_Time     : constant Boolean := False;
...)

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Lucretia]

On Feb 15, 6:34 am, a...@anon.org (anon) wrote:

> There is no documentation on these Boolean flags because they are use
> by Adacore (GNAT creators) in house. Also some are slowly be removed
> while others are becoming non-operational.

The documentation for these flags is in the targparm.ad[sb] files as
already stated. I don't know if ACT are removing these flags, I can't
see it as they still need them for the Pro versions as well. But, it
wouldn't surprise me, they don't seem to want to let anybody do this
kind of low level work with GNAT and by limiting it to their Pro
variant it would seem that that is the only target that they want
people playing with.

My experience on getting information on either removing the runtime or
limiting it has been nil so far.

Luke.

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Ludovic Brenta]

Lucretia writes:
> On Feb 15, 6:34 am, a...@anon.org (anon) wrote:
>
>> There is no documentation on these Boolean flags because they are use
>> by Adacore (GNAT creators) in house. Also some are slowly be removed
>> while others are becoming non-operational.
>
> The documentation for these flags is in the targparm.ad[sb] files as
> already stated. I don't know if ACT are removing these flags, I can't
> see it as they still need them for the Pro versions as well. But, it
> wouldn't surprise me, they don't seem to want to let anybody do this
> kind of low level work with GNAT and by limiting it to their Pro
> variant it would seem that that is the only target that they want
> people playing with.

AdaCore does not try to restrict what people can do with the runtime.
They themselves have no more documentation than is visible in the
sources.

> My experience on getting information on either removing the runtime
> or limiting it has been nil so far.

Not because AdaCore doesn't want you to tinker with the runtime, but
only because you didn't pay them for their valuable time answering
your questions.  Besides, one can argue that tinkering with the
runtime library is an advanced topic suitable only for supported
customers (in which case AdaCore supplies the bespoke runtime as part
of the support contract) or compiler developers (who are, hopefully,
sufficiently advanced not to require support).

If you spend enough time learning how to change the runtime, then you
will enter the second category.  If you don't want to do that but
insist on a bespoke runtime, pay for support.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Lucretia]

On Feb 17, 9:11 am, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:
> Lucretia writes:

> If you spend enough time learning how to change the runtime, then you
> will enter the second category.  If you don't want to do that but
> insist on a bespoke runtime, pay for support.

Do I look like I'm made of money? I'm not loaded, therefore cannot pay
that amount for something.

Luke.

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Hibou57]

On 17 fév, 10:11, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:
> If you spend enough time learning how to change the runtime, then you
> will enter the second category.  If you don't want to do that but
> insist on a bespoke runtime, pay for support.
>
> --
> Ludovic Brenta.

Do you know the pricing ?

I've had a convertion with the commercial service (france), beceause I
was looking for a commercial support (I was asking to buy a
lightweigth version of the runtime).

Unfortunately, the base price, in  as hight as 12,000 EURO

Do you really think that most of people can pay so much ?

Ok for support, and to pay for it.... but the price is really to much.

By the way, if some one can sell a light runtime for about 60$, I'm
ok ;)

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Ludovic Brenta]

Hibou57 writes:
> On 17 fév, 10:11, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>> If you spend enough time learning how to change the runtime, then you
>> will enter the second category.  If you don't want to do that but
>> insist on a bespoke runtime, pay for support.
>
> Do you know the pricing ?

Yes.

> I've had a convertion with the commercial service (france), beceause
> I was looking for a commercial support (I was asking to buy a
> lightweigth version of the runtime).
>
> Unfortunately, the base price, in  as hight as 12,000 EURO
>
> Do you really think that most of people can pay so much ?

Most customers of AdaCore are willing and able to pay that much, and
more in the case of embedded or large-scale development: otherwise
they wouldn't be customers, would they?  :)

But if by "most people" you mean small or medium-sized businesses, I
agree that the price is too expensive for them.  AdaCore does not try
to address that market; this is their strategic decision.

> Ok for support, and to pay for it.... but the price is really to
> much.

Then ask AdaCore's competitors.  That's what competition is for, isn't
it?

> By the way, if some one can sell a light runtime for about 60$, I'm
> ok ;)

RR Software and Aonix would probably both be in your ballpark.  I
don't know SofCheck's prices.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Ludovic Brenta]

Ludovic Brenta writes:
> RR Software and Aonix would probably both be in your ballpark.  I
> don't know SofCheck's prices.

By the way, I did mention that the size of your executables was
probably NOT the reason for the "bad" performance of your CGI
application, didn't I?  And I also pointed out that you can rent a
virtual private server (where you can deploy an AWS-based application)
for less than 8 euros a month, didn't I?

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Hibou57]

On 18 fév, 00:33, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:
> RR Software and Aonix would probably both be in your ballpark.  I
> don't know SofCheck's prices.
>
> --
> Ludovic Brenta.

I've just looked at RR software : I suppose you are talking about
their Janus Ada95 compiler. This unfortunately does not target Linux
(oly Windows and the "real" Unix).

I've also looked at Aonix, and just filled the form to request
informations (pricing and test). Thus I cannot tell at the time.

> for less than 8 euros a month, didn't I?

I'm hosted at 1&1, the pricing for virtual dedicated server start at
30 EURO/month. I know this is not so much, but may be for the future,
when I will be sure to get enough earnings. At the time my earning
will not do it profit-making.

Thanks for advices :) (I fully agree with, this is just not well
suited to the actual conjuncture).

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[anon]

Some of the parameters in the System.adb are used by the GCC backend
code and with every change these parameters may go out of favor. Some 
others parameters like "OpenVMS" are use for that OS only.

As of GNAT 4.3x, the System.ads contains the following three 
statements:

   --  Obsolete entries, to be removed eventually (bootstrap issues!)

   High_Integrity_Mode       : constant Boolean := False;
   Long_Shifts_Inlined       : constant Boolean := True;


If you delete them Target.adb will cause the system to fail with an 
error that states:

        fatal error: system.ads is incorrectly formatted
        missing line for parameter: High_Integrity_Mode
        fatal error: system.ads is incorrectly formatted
        missing line for parameter: Long_Shifts_Inlined


As for PRICING for Ada Systems (Compiler +)
        Ada 2005 (2007) specs (open source)
                Note: As of Feb, 15: Adacore is the only company 
                      that supports Ada 2005 (2007) specs.

                GNAT GPL -- free but you must learn or ask others 
                for information including buying books.

                In Mar, 2007 it was report that Adacore charges 
                $14K per year for the GNAT PRO version.

        Ada 95/83 specs (only) (close source, non-gpl license)

                IBM and others will be around $500 for the compiler 
                and they will allow UNIX / LINUX Windows environment

                Other companies pricing will be about $500 for 
                Windows only envirnoent.


But from what I am understanding you because of a number of reasons 
which may include censorship (low price site have a great deal of rules 
with few webmaster controls), you need to run your own web server.  

So, except for the time it will take to download and and install, the 
software price is free. Use the MaRTE OS (latest, includes the 
Ada-2005 specs compiler) and get the Apache web server. Compile 
and run the Apache server under the MaRTE.   

MaRTE has the programming hooks for Ada and C with POSIX interfaces 
so you can write faster web apps. This enviroment will alow you to 
still use the old CGI under the Apache server until you have time 
to write the faster code.

Plus, you can create two or more system freely so that the Internet 
server is not down during the testing phase of creating the new web 
apps.




In <a3591c98-40c0-4825-b04c-f72fe05187ba@62g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>, Hibou57 <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes:
>On 17 f=E9v, 10:11, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:
>> If you spend enough time learning how to change the runtime, then you
>> will enter the second category.  If you don't want to do that but
>> insist on a bespoke runtime, pay for support.
>>
>> --
>> Ludovic Brenta.
>
>Do you know the pricing ?
>
>I've had a convertion with the commercial service (france), beceause I
>was looking for a commercial support (I was asking to buy a
>lightweigth version of the runtime).
>
>Unfortunately, the base price, in  as hight as 12,000 EURO
>
>Do you really think that most of people can pay so much ?
>
>Ok for support, and to pay for it.... but the price is really to much.
>
>By the way, if some one can sell a light runtime for about 60$, I'm
>ok ;)

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Martin Krischik]

Hibou57 schrieb:

> I'm hosted at 1&1, the pricing for virtual dedicated server start at
> 30 EURO/month. I know this is not so much, but may be for the future,
> when I will be sure to get enough earnings. At the time my earning
> will not do it profit-making.

http://www.profihost.com: VServer Starter ab 14.99* Euro / Monat

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Ludovic Brenta]

Martin Krischik wrote:
> Hibou57 schrieb:
>
> > I'm hosted at 1&1, the pricing for virtual dedicated server start at
> > 30 EURO/month. I know this is not so much, but may be for the future,
> > when I will be sure to get enough earnings. At the time my earning
> > will not do it profit-making.
>
> http://www.profihost.com: VServer Starter ab 14.99* Euro / Monat
>
> Martin

Heh, like I said, that's what competition is for :)
Also, 1&1 themselves offer virtual private servers starting at 10 EUR/
month with the first 3 months at 5 EUR/month. Hibou, your time will be
better spent looking for a VPS than learning how to build your own
stripped-down runtime. (And yes , Debian is one of the options they
offer).

Remember: with AWS, you don't need a lot of memory or CPU, so an entry-
level offering is probably sufficient for your needs. Apache + CGI is
probably the worst solution *also* from a financial standpoint!

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GNAT - System.ads - System Implementation Parameters

[Ludovic Brenta]

Lucretia writes:
> Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>> Lucretia writes:
>
>> If you spend enough time learning how to change the runtime, then you
>> will enter the second category.  If you don't want to do that but
>> insist on a bespoke runtime, pay for support.
>
> Do I look like I'm made of money?

On Usenet, nobody knows what you look like :)

> I'm not loaded, therefore cannot pay that amount for something.

Let alone pay for nothing :)

So therefore, if you need a custom runtime, become a GNAT expert and
do it yourself.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.