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From: "Marin David Condic" <mcondic.auntie.spam@acm.org>
Subject: Re: IBM Acquires Rational Ada
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:43:51 -0500
Date: 2002-12-13T12:44:29+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <atcknd$8nr$1@slb9.atl.mindspring.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 3DF9A5B3.3CC0E2A3@praxis-cs.co.uk

Peter Amey <peter.amey@praxis-cs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3DF9A5B3.3CC0E2A3@praxis-cs.co.uk...
>
>
> Marin David Condic wrote:
> >
> > Exactly, 100% the point. Ada seems to be so busy coming up with a
"perfect"
> > answer that it misses the point - even a bad answer is better than *no*
> > answer.
>
> Not if the application is life-critical (or even business critical).
>
>
Not necessarily true. In fact, its done all the time. People write
life-critical or business-critical or anything-else-critical applications in
weak languages with shoddy libraries all the time. It just *costs* more to
do it! I could use some crappy library of buggy containers in a life
critical app if I a) test carefully and avoid the things that kill it and/or
b) patch the library myself until it works right. Both of which probably
will take less time than building the library from bottom-dead-center.

Granted, all other things being equal, I'd rather have a good, solid,
rigorously standardized, thoroughly tested Ada library to work with. But if
I've got hardware coming in 3 months and you're perfect Ada library is going
to be delivered in 2005 with the next ARM, my choices are these: Write my
own or use some piece of crap that someone else built in C. Hardware is here
in 3 months? Damn! I think I'll go with the piece of crap in C and hope I
can patch it together well enough to do the job. Chances are, I can make
that work and it got me the leverage I needed to get my job done by the time
the hardware arrives.

So if the Ada mentality is going to remain "We won't build a library until
it can be released in the ARM and implemented on every processor ever
designed and thoroughly run through the wringer so that it is 100% provable
to be safe and reliable...." then I guess Ada can just keep on giving up
development jobs to C, C++ and Java.

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate "Lets go build really crappy libraries
so we can be just like C/C++ with lots of core dumps because then everybody
will love us..." I'm suggesting that coming up with a library that is
maintained less formally than the Ada standard and released more frequently
than the Ada standard is likely to a) produce something that is probably not
going to be as rigorously defined and validated as the ARM would be and b)
so what? it got there and is doing the job.


MDC
--
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jast.mil/

Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g

    "I'd trade it all for just a little more"
        --  Charles Montgomery Burns, [4F10]
======================================================================





  reply	other threads:[~2002-12-13 12:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 182+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2002-12-07  2:47 IBM Acquires Rational Ada Richard Riehle
2002-12-07  8:24 ` achrist
2002-12-08  1:46   ` Richard Riehle
2002-12-08 14:45     ` Steven Deller
2002-12-08 20:20       ` Richard Riehle
2002-12-09 14:26       ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-11 18:25       ` achrist
2002-12-11 19:29         ` Martin Dowie
2002-12-22  2:07           ` faust
2002-12-21 18:08       ` faust
2002-12-08 17:18     ` steve_H
2002-12-08 20:11       ` Steven Deller
2002-12-09 14:24         ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-09 15:23           ` John McCabe
2002-12-09 16:55             ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-08 23:31       ` Christopher Browne
2002-12-09 10:30       ` John McCabe
2002-12-09 14:11         ` Georg Bauhaus
2002-12-09 14:32           ` Pat Rogers
2002-12-09 15:42         ` Simon Wright
2002-12-12 14:41           ` Alvery Grazebrook
2002-12-12 21:13             ` Martin Dowie
2002-12-16 13:24               ` UML to Ada Mapping Alvery Grazebrook
2002-12-17  8:27             ` IBM Acquires Rational Ada Simon Wright
2002-12-10 22:43       ` Andreas Almroth
2002-12-09 13:09     ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-09 22:45       ` steve_H
2002-12-10 13:50         ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-10 17:47           ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-10 20:21             ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-10 22:05               ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-11  2:50                 ` steve_H
2002-12-11  8:51                   ` OT: Word processing (was: Re: IBM Acquires Rational Ada) Anders Wirzenius
2002-12-11 13:45                   ` IBM Acquires Rational Ada Marin David Condic
2002-12-11 14:46                     ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-12 13:07                       ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-12 18:19                         ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-12 19:12                           ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-13 12:25                           ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-13 17:41                             ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-13 18:20                               ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-13 21:49                                 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
     [not found]                                   ` <KIkL9.2260$c6.2599@bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com>
2002-12-16 18:12                                     ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-17 21:25                                       ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-16 18:54                                     ` John R. Strohm
2002-12-16 22:23                             ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-17 14:47                               ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-17 20:17                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-16 10:11                           ` calenday (was " Peter Hermann
2002-12-16 18:38                             ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-16 19:04                               ` Bill Findlay
2002-12-16 20:25                                 ` David C. Hoos
2002-12-16 20:37                                   ` Bill Findlay
2002-12-16 21:41                                     ` David C. Hoos
2002-12-16 22:11                                       ` Bill Findlay
2002-12-17 15:47                                         ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-17 16:26                                           ` Peter Hermann
2002-12-17 16:37                                             ` Bill Findlay
2002-12-16 22:32                                   ` tmoran
2002-12-16 22:21                               ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-17  8:07                               ` Simon Wright
2002-12-19 12:23                             ` Frank Piron
2002-12-19 12:33                               ` Karel Miklav
2002-12-19 13:24                               ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-17 14:46                           ` Robert A Duff
2002-12-17 19:08                             ` tmoran
2002-12-17 19:15                               ` Bill Findlay
2002-12-17 20:00                               ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-17 19:48                                 ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-12-17 20:08                               ` David C. Hoos
2002-12-17 20:52                               ` Dennis Lee Bieber
2002-12-17 21:43                               ` Steven Murdoch
2002-12-17 16:39                           ` Robert A Duff
     [not found]                           ` <atk8s0$7dm$1@news.uni <wccn0n4oazy.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com>
2002-12-18 13:20                             ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-18 15:17                               ` Robert A Duff
2002-12-18 17:58                                 ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-19  8:48                                   ` tmoran
2002-12-19 13:18                                     ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-19 20:46                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-20 12:23                                         ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-12-20 21:35                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-20 13:15                                         ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-20 12:19                                           ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-12-21 15:48                                             ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-21 14:54                                               ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-12-20 18:49                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-20 19:48                                             ` Frank J. Lhota
2002-12-20 21:29                                               ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-23  2:05                                                 ` AG
2002-12-27 20:43                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-21 15:59                                               ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-20 21:49                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-18 18:57                           ` Robert A Duff
     [not found]                           ` <atk8s0$7dm$1@news.uni <wcc4r9b40ka.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com>
2002-12-18 19:16                             ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-18 22:03                               ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-18 22:00                             ` Randy Brukardt
2002-12-18 22:39                               ` Robert A Duff
2002-12-19  2:41                             ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-19 11:47                           ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-12-13 14:18                       ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-12-13 17:07                       ` Larry Kilgallen
     [not found]                       ` <ata1n7$g5g$1@slb4.atlOrganization: LJK Software <uaDr7xp1zlGD@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2002-12-13 21:52                         ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-14 14:01                         ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-14 20:01                           ` tmoran
2002-12-16 18:48                           ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-16 23:01                             ` Ed Cogburn
2002-12-11 14:59                     ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-11 18:33                       ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-11 20:51                       ` steve_H
2002-12-11 21:40                         ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-12 18:24                         ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-24  4:16                           ` David Thompson
2002-12-11 21:54                       ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-12-11 23:22                       ` Robert A Duff
2002-12-12 16:44                         ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-12 17:14                           ` Fraser Wilson
2002-12-12 18:33                             ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-12 19:16                               ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-13 21:26                                 ` Programmer Dude
2002-12-16 19:27                               ` John R. Strohm
2002-12-16 20:08                                 ` Hyman Rosen
     [not found]                       ` <8db3d6c8.0212111251.1ecca62e@po <wccel8of8dv.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com>
2002-12-12 10:07                         ` John English
2002-12-13  0:53                           ` Zaphod
2002-12-12 13:20                       ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-11 19:04                     ` tmoran
2002-12-11 19:20                     ` Jeffrey Carter
2002-12-12 13:34                       ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-12 17:04                         ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-12 18:17                           ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-13  9:17                             ` Peter Amey
2002-12-13 12:43                               ` Marin David Condic [this message]
2002-12-13 15:46                                 ` Robert Spooner
2002-12-14 14:15                                   ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-15 10:30                                     ` Ingo Marks
2002-12-15 13:54                                       ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-15 19:20                                         ` tmoran
2002-12-16 13:20                                           ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-17 15:41                                             ` steve_H
2002-12-18 13:11                                               ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-16 13:43                                           ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-11 13:33             ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-12 18:43               ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-12 19:53                 ` tmoran
2002-12-13  6:06                 ` Richard Riehle
2002-12-13 10:22                   ` Ed Cogburn
2002-12-13 13:07                   ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-13 14:16                     ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-13 21:27                       ` Jeffrey Carter
2002-12-13 21:27                       ` Jeffrey Carter
2002-12-14 14:25                       ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-16 13:56                         ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-17 15:04                           ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-17 21:29                             ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-18 13:31                               ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-22  2:41                       ` faust
2002-12-13 14:13                   ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-22  2:47                     ` faust
2002-12-13 17:55                   ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-13 21:55                     ` Dennis Lee Bieber
2002-12-16 13:58                       ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-14  0:14                     ` steve_H
2002-12-16 19:00                       ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-14 12:58                     ` Tarjei T. Jensen
2002-12-19  9:53                     ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2002-12-19 16:17                       ` Tarjei T. Jensen
2002-12-19 17:27                         ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-19 22:51                       ` Michael Bode
2002-12-13 12:51                 ` Marin David Condic
2002-12-14 19:51               ` GianLuigi Piacentini
2002-12-14 20:35                 ` Dennis Lee Bieber
2002-12-21 17:41     ` faust
2002-12-21 17:40 ` IBM , the kiss of death ( Re: IBM Acquires Rational Ada) faust
2003-01-06 22:24 ` IBM Acquires Rational Ada Don Westermeyer
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2002-12-12 12:56 Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2002-12-13  6:43 Grein, Christoph
2002-12-16  5:15 ` Hyman Rosen
2002-12-16  7:19   ` Richard Riehle
2002-12-17 22:51     ` Kevin Cline
2002-12-18 18:28       ` Wes Groleau
2002-12-18 18:48         ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2002-12-20  5:11           ` Kevin Cline
2002-12-22  2:39             ` faust
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