* F22 Raptor in slashdot.org @ 2003-08-02 2:11 Dale Stanbrough 2003-08-03 18:09 ` Robert Love ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Dale Stanbrough @ 2003-08-02 2:11 UTC (permalink / raw) There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org. If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info. Dale -- dstanbro@spam.o.matic.bigpond.net.au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-02 2:11 F22 Raptor in slashdot.org Dale Stanbrough @ 2003-08-03 18:09 ` Robert Love 2003-08-05 2:29 ` Richard Riehle 2003-08-04 12:49 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-09-07 13:54 ` Adrian Hoe 2 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Robert Love @ 2003-08-03 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw) In <MrNoSpam-4A654D.12114802082003@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Dale Stanbrough wrote: > There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org. > If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this > it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info. I was going to ask about this. If I remember, the new code is in C++ and the legacy stuff is Ada. I don't know percentages, or if there will be a public report on what software is causing the reboots to be needed. Yes, I know that you can do poor software engineering in any language but it would be interesting to see what the real root caueses are and if other languages or methodologies would've preveneted them. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-03 18:09 ` Robert Love @ 2003-08-05 2:29 ` Richard Riehle 2003-08-05 11:47 ` Dmytry Lavrov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Richard Riehle @ 2003-08-05 2:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Love wrote: > In <MrNoSpam-4A654D.12114802082003@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Dale > Stanbrough wrote: > > There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org. > > If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this > > it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info. > > I was going to ask about this. If I remember, the new code is in C++ > and the legacy stuff is Ada. I don't know percentages, or if there will > be a public report on what software is causing the reboots to be needed. 1) JSF is scheduled to be predominantly C++ and C. Ada will be used for some systems. 2) Raptor uses a lot of Ada as well as other languages. 3) While Ada may be better suited to the development of military and commercial avionics and other safety-critical software, the development is still carried out by fallible humans. A good tool will help, but the old adage, "A fool with a tool is still a fool" continues to hold true. 4) The complexity of both JSF and Raptor exceeds anything previously attempted. Large, complex projects that follow the "grand design" process are likely to have a huge number of defects simply because of their using "grand design." 5) While I believe Ada scales up better than C++ in this kind of system, there are ways that skilled developers can use a limited version of C++ to achieve a modesly satisfactory result. Unfortunately, I have little confidence that those developers will limit themselves to only those aspects of C++ that are safe. The temptation to do otherwise is too great. 6) When a system written in Ada does fail, we must be honest enough to admit that it was created in Ada. All the excuses we make sound like excuses. I have seen excellent projects writtten in Ada -- other Ada projects that would, in the words of a mythical specials forces colonel, "make a billy goat puke." 7) Finally, I do believe that, all other things being equal, a programming team has a greater probability of success using Ada than C++ or other alternatives. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 2:29 ` Richard Riehle @ 2003-08-05 11:47 ` Dmytry Lavrov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-05 11:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Richard Riehle wrote: > > Robert Love wrote: > > > In <MrNoSpam-4A654D.12114802082003@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Dale > > Stanbrough wrote: > > > There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org. > > > If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this > > > it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info. > > > > I was going to ask about this. If I remember, the new code is in C++ > > and the legacy stuff is Ada. I don't know percentages, or if there will > > be a public report on what software is causing the reboots to be needed. > > 1) JSF is scheduled to be predominantly C++ and C. Ada will be used > for some systems. > > 2) Raptor uses a lot of Ada as well as other languages. > > 3) While Ada may be better suited to the development of military and > commercial avionics and other safety-critical software, the development > > is still carried out by fallible humans. A good tool will help, but > the > old adage, "A fool with a tool is still a fool" continues to hold true. > > 4) The complexity of both JSF and Raptor exceeds anything previously > attempted. Large, complex projects that follow the "grand design" > process are likely to have a huge number of defects simply because > of their using "grand design." > > 5) While I believe Ada scales up better than C++ in this kind of system, > there > are ways that skilled developers can use a limited version of C++ to > achieve > a modesly satisfactory result. Unfortunately, I have little > confidence that > those developers will limit themselves to only those aspects of C++ > that > are safe. The temptation to do otherwise is too great. > > 6) When a system written in Ada does fail, we must be honest enough to > admit > that it was created in Ada. All the excuses we make sound like > excuses. I > have seen excellent projects writtten in Ada -- other Ada projects > that > would, in the words of a mythical specials forces colonel, > "make a billy goat puke." > > 7) Finally, I do believe that, all other things being equal, a programming > team has > a greater probability of success using Ada than C++ or other > alternatives. > > Richard Riehle It's bad (for me and Lithuania ;-) if USA will have planes that need reboots.. What,this F22's autopilot are really big program? What's it does? Some kind of AI? To fly from waypoint to waypoint and aim missiles not a very big program is needed,my non-speciallist's imo. -- - http://dmytrylavrov.narod.ru ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-02 2:11 F22 Raptor in slashdot.org Dale Stanbrough 2003-08-03 18:09 ` Robert Love @ 2003-08-04 12:49 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-04 12:42 ` Wojtek Narczynski 2003-08-04 14:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-09-07 13:54 ` Adrian Hoe 2 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-04 12:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Love wrote: > > In <MrNoSpam-4A654D.12114802082003@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Dale > Stanbrough wrote: > > There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org. > > If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this > > it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info. > > I was going to ask about this. If I remember, the new code is in C++ Really? I'm understanding right? It's not about Novalogic game F22 raptor? It's F22 raptor military airplane? Military avionics in C++? Heh,our MIGS will not shot it : it will fall due to bad pointer operation or memory leak, without any shot ;-). > and the legacy stuff is Ada. I don't know percentages, or if there will > be a public report on what software is causing the reboots to be needed. What? Reboots????????????? "Please Re-Takeoff your plane by pressing fire,eject,and self-explode buttons." ;) > > Yes, I know that you can do poor software engineering Ohh yes,i can do and they can too.If i work for ManyMoney-Soft company. > in any language > but it would be interesting to see what the real root caueses are and if > other languages or methodologies would've preveneted them. There is 2 reasons why c++ is bad in this case: 1:instability by nature(even if no leaks,heap fragmentation,and inpossible defragmentation), 2:poor programmers. IMO, C++ are so widely used mainly because it's popular and simpler(and lesser cost) to find "experienced" programmer(that newer programmed in non-c<x> language,and can't learn different ones). Bad side of things that next step is nuclear war caused by memory leak in C++. "Please reboot your civilisation ..." .Really. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-04 12:49 ` Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-04 12:42 ` Wojtek Narczynski 2003-08-04 20:02 ` Dmytry Lavrov ` (2 more replies) 2003-08-04 14:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 1 sibling, 3 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Wojtek Narczynski @ 2003-08-04 12:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmytry, You may not be 100% correct about this. If you were also subscribed to team-ada@acm.org you could have read a post from Roger Racine stating "(...) My company wrote the software for the Apollo program, in assembly code. Our country's strategic missiles have software written in assembly code. I firmly believe that both those systems had (for Apollo) and have (for our missiles) very few defects. But the cost of the analysis and testing for both of those programs were -quite- high. (...)" (I hope RR wouldn't mind getting cited). So it is really more about costs. Companies that work for the gov't are not interesting in lowering those costs. But I guess many people, definitely including me, would love to hear what has been used to create software for russian space programmes and aircrafts. Little information is publically available about this. Regards, Wojtek ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-04 12:42 ` Wojtek Narczynski @ 2003-08-04 20:02 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-05 0:28 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-08-05 0:42 ` rleif 2 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-04 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Wojtek Narczynski wrote: > > Dmytry, > > You may not be 100% correct about this. If you were also subscribed to > team-ada@acm.org you could have read a post from Roger Racine stating > "(...) My company wrote the software for the Apollo program, in > assembly code. Our country's strategic missiles have software written > in assembly code. I firmly believe that both those systems had (for > Apollo) and have (for our missiles) very few defects. But the cost of > the analysis and testing for both of those programs were -quite- high. > (...)" (I hope RR wouldn't mind getting cited). So it is really more > about costs. Companies that work for the gov't are not interesting in > lowering those costs. But I guess many people, definitely including > me, would love to hear what has been used to create software for > russian space programmes and aircrafts. Little information is > publically available about this. > > Regards, > Wojtek I really don't know what soft was used. I'm does not work,worked,and newer will work for russian gov.I'm was born in Lietuva. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-04 12:42 ` Wojtek Narczynski 2003-08-04 20:02 ` Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-05 0:28 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-08-05 0:42 ` rleif 2 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Alexander Kopilovitch @ 2003-08-05 0:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Wojtek Narczynski) wrote: > ... I guess many people, definitely including > me, would love to hear what has been used to create software for > russian space programmes and aircrafts. Little information is > publically available about this. Well, although I certainly don't know anything concrete about Soviet/Russian space programmes (thanks God -;) and their software, nevertheless with indirect information from many different sources I'm sure that most of the software (especially before 1970) was created using assemblers, and probably often quite rudimentary assemblers... it is even quite possible that some part of the software was created directly in machine code, that is, without any assembler. Note that the Soviet military and space computers those times were incompatible with Western computers, and there were very few programmers skilled enough for creating good compilers (decade of calling cybernetics "a prostitute for imperialism" had significant consequences). At the same time there were plenty of good mathematicians. So, perhaps, good mathematics and near-perfect algorithms compensated for hardships and inefficiency of assembly (and octal code) programming and debugging. Alexander Kopilovitch aek@vib.usr.pu.ru Saint-Petersburg Russia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* RE: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-04 12:42 ` Wojtek Narczynski 2003-08-04 20:02 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-05 0:28 ` Alexander Kopilovitch @ 2003-08-05 0:42 ` rleif 2003-08-05 0:53 ` Hyman Rosen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: rleif @ 2003-08-05 0:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Wojtek Narczynski', comp.lang.ada The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and the US DoD is using C++ and Java. This type of situation has occurred before. The German Army very effectively used the tank tactics published by General Charles de Gaulle. Billy Mitchell invented the aircraft carrier and the Japanese proved that they worked. Bob Leif Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. Email rleif@rleif.com -----Original Message----- From: Wojtek Narczynski [mailto:wojtek@power.com.pl] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:43 AM To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org Subject: Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org Dmytry, You may not be 100% correct about this. If you were also subscribed to team-ada@acm.org you could have read a post from Roger Racine stating "(...) My company wrote the software for the Apollo program, in assembly code. Our country's strategic missiles have software written in assembly code. I firmly believe that both those systems had (for Apollo) and have (for our missiles) very few defects. But the cost of the analysis and testing for both of those programs were -quite- high. (...)" (I hope RR wouldn't mind getting cited). So it is really more about costs. Companies that work for the gov't are not interesting in lowering those costs. But I guess many people, definitely including me, would love to hear what has been used to create software for russian space programmes and aircrafts. Little information is publically available about this. Regards, Wojtek ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 0:42 ` rleif @ 2003-08-05 0:53 ` Hyman Rosen 2003-08-05 5:30 ` Vinzent Hoefler 2003-08-05 6:53 ` Georg Bauhaus 0 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Hyman Rosen @ 2003-08-05 0:53 UTC (permalink / raw) rleif wrote: > The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the > US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and > the US DoD is using C++ and Java. Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 0:53 ` Hyman Rosen @ 2003-08-05 5:30 ` Vinzent Hoefler 2003-08-05 6:47 ` Hyman Rosen 2003-08-05 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-08-05 6:53 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Vinzent Hoefler @ 2003-08-05 5:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Hyman Rosen wrote: >rleif wrote: >> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the >> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and >> the US DoD is using C++ and Java. > >Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students >and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces >of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-) You underestimate the power of uhmm, ahh, the creativity of the working class. ;-) Vinzent. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 5:30 ` Vinzent Hoefler @ 2003-08-05 6:47 ` Hyman Rosen 2003-08-05 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Hyman Rosen @ 2003-08-05 6:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Vinzent Hoefler wrote: > You underestimate the power of uhmm, ahh, the creativity of the > working class. ;-) Shhh! We're trying to sell them the rope they're going to hang us with :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 5:30 ` Vinzent Hoefler 2003-08-05 6:47 ` Hyman Rosen @ 2003-08-05 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-08-05 11:29 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-05 22:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 1 sibling, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-08-05 7:23 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:30:28 +0200, Vinzent Hoefler <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com> wrote: >Hyman Rosen wrote: > >>rleif wrote: >>> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the >>> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and >>> the US DoD is using C++ and Java. >> >>Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students >>and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces >>of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-) > >You underestimate the power of uhmm, ahh, the creativity of the >working class. ;-) The working class and its ruling party have dismissed pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-)) --- Regards, Dmitry Kazakov www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-08-05 11:29 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-05 22:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-05 11:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > > On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:30:28 +0200, Vinzent Hoefler > <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com> wrote: > > >Hyman Rosen wrote: > > > >>rleif wrote: > >>> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the > >>> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and > >>> the US DoD is using C++ and Java. > >> > >>Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students > >>and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces > >>of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-) > > > >You underestimate the power of uhmm, ahh, the creativity of the > >working class. ;-) > > The working class and its ruling party have dismissed > pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-)) THANKS GOD!!!!!!!!! and for genetics too! > > --- > Regards, > Dmitry Kazakov > www.dmitry-kazakov.de -- - http://dmytrylavrov.narod.ru ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-08-05 11:29 ` Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-05 22:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-08-06 8:14 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Alexander Kopilovitch @ 2003-08-05 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote > The working class and its ruling party have dismissed > pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-)) Note, though, that at the same time they easily accepted the "theory of automatic control". So, it was the set of popular paradigms that matters for that dismission (and even prosecution), not the technical essence. Alexander Kopilovitch aek@vib.usr.pu.ru Saint-Petersburg Russia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 22:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch @ 2003-08-06 8:14 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-08-06 11:33 ` Dmytry Lavrov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-08-06 8:14 UTC (permalink / raw) On 5 Aug 2003 15:04:06 -0700, aek@vib.usr.pu.ru (Alexander Kopilovitch) wrote: >Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote > >> The working class and its ruling party have dismissed >> pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-)) > >Note, though, that at the same time they easily accepted the "theory of >automatic control". So, it was the set of popular paradigms that matters >for that dismission (and even prosecution), not the technical essence. Surely technical issues never matter for the "management" class. Managers make *political* decisions. Arguments could be "it is very important to our business" or "it is good for our class struggle", but never technical. This is a taboo. --- Regards, Dmitry Kazakov www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-06 8:14 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-08-06 11:33 ` Dmytry Lavrov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-06 11:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > > On 5 Aug 2003 15:04:06 -0700, aek@vib.usr.pu.ru (Alexander > Kopilovitch) wrote: > > >Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote > > > >> The working class and its ruling party have dismissed > >> pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-)) > > > >Note, though, that at the same time they easily accepted the "theory of > >automatic control". So, it was the set of popular paradigms that matters > >for that dismission (and even prosecution), not the technical essence. > > Surely technical issues never matter for the "management" class. > Managers make *political* decisions. Arguments could be "it is very > important to our business" or "it is good for our class struggle", but > never technical. This is a taboo. > > --- > Regards, > Dmitry Kazakov > www.dmitry-kazakov.de IMO, "socialism" without democratic is very bad type of exploatation of working class by non-working class.. And these "USSRism" have nothing with socialism.Any time when someone want to implement cosialism,result is pre-capitalistic feodalism.(derived from modern materialism ;-))) Socialistic Revolution was caused mainly because there was a supply problems by phisical reasons at 1917,no bread in St.Peterburg. Farmers(real working class) wasn't wanted revolution.But farmers hadn't guns. Of course, if for example, imperator is more despotic,and revolution is stopped,it's does not helps against revolution in future. IMO,Only one thing may stop these revolution(when it's started):if ALL classes have guns to protect interests.But it's "rope to hang us" for imperator. Sorry for "out of subject flood" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-05 0:53 ` Hyman Rosen 2003-08-05 5:30 ` Vinzent Hoefler @ 2003-08-05 6:53 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-08-05 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote: : rleif wrote: :> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the :> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and :> the US DoD is using C++ and Java. : : Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students : and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces : of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-) Of course, according to the theory, there is no need to defeat the forces of capitalism. If only Uljanov had known... So, happy coding with GNAT. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-04 12:49 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-04 12:42 ` Wojtek Narczynski @ 2003-08-04 14:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-08-04 19:58 ` Dmytry Lavrov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Alexander Kopilovitch @ 2003-08-04 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmytry Lavrov <m31415@mail.ru> wrote: > > If I remember, the new code is in C++ > >Really? I'm understanding right? It's not about Novalogic game F22 >raptor? It's F22 raptor military airplane? Military avionics in C++? > >Heh,our MIGS will not shot it : it will fall due to bad pointer >operation or memory leak, without any shot ;-). You don't understand the stategical gain: a potential enemy certainly will copy the technology, believing that the world leader's technology must be superior. But that potential enemy will not allocate such huge resources for reviewing, verification and testing as the leader will do. Therefore the enemy's military airplanes will have more bugs in their avionics and thus will be inferior - just what is needed. Remember, that military airplane need not be best possible - it is enough for it to be significantly better than enemy's airplane. It is the difference that matters there, so you should try to maximize it. -;) , if you wish. > Bad side of things that next step is nuclear war caused by memory leak in C++. > "Please reboot your civilisation ..." .Really. Well, memory leaks and bad pointers in the brains of some people still are much more significant dangers for civilization than any C++ (and even Java -;) software. Alexander Kopilovitch aek@vib.usr.pu.ru Saint-Petersburg Russia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-04 14:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch @ 2003-08-04 19:58 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-04 19:24 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-04 19:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Alexander Kopilovitch wrote: > > Dmytry Lavrov <m31415@mail.ru> wrote: > > > > If I remember, the new code is in C++ > > > >Really? I'm understanding right? It's not about Novalogic game F22 > >raptor? It's F22 raptor military airplane? Military avionics in C++? > > > >Heh,our MIGS will not shot it : it will fall due to bad pointer > >operation or memory leak, without any shot ;-). > > You don't understand the stategical gain: a potential enemy certainly will > copy the technology, believing that the world leader's technology must be > superior. But that potential enemy will not allocate such huge resources for > reviewing, verification and testing as the leader will do. Therefore the > enemy's military airplanes will have more bugs in their avionics and thus > will be inferior - just what is needed. Remember, that military airplane > need not be best possible - it is enough for it to be significantly better > than enemy's airplane. It is the difference that matters there, so you should > try to maximize it. > > -;) , if you wish. > > > Bad side of things that next step is nuclear war caused by memory leak in C++. > > "Please reboot your civilisation ..." .Really. > > Well, memory leaks and bad pointers in the brains of some people still are > much more significant dangers for civilization than any C++ (and even Java -;) > software. Yes...of course ;-) i think if c++ will be used in nuclear missiles launch center,it's result of bad pointers in managers brains. > > Alexander Kopilovitch aek@vib.usr.pu.ru > Saint-Petersburg > Russia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-04 19:58 ` Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-08-04 19:24 ` tmoran 2003-08-07 0:27 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2003-08-04 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw) >i think if c++ will be used in nuclear missiles launch center,it's >result of bad pointers in managers brains. Programmers tend to be smart and try very hard to be logical and still have an error rate of x/SLOC. Mathematicians try *really* hard to create logically correct proofs, yet a published result is still sometimes found to be incorrect. Is there any reason to believe that decision makers, managers, military officers, politicians or any other group has a substantially lower error rate? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-04 19:24 ` tmoran @ 2003-08-07 0:27 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Alexander Kopilovitch @ 2003-08-07 0:27 UTC (permalink / raw) tmoran@acm.org wrote: > Programmers tend to be smart and try very hard to be logical and still > have an error rate of x/SLOC. Mathematicians try *really* hard to create > logically correct proofs, yet a published result is still sometimes found > to be incorrect. Is there any reason to believe that decision makers, > managers, military officers, politicians or any other group has a > substantially lower error rate? Generally yes, one may have such a reason: members of the latter group quite often are backed with a staff of aids and/or advisors of various kind. Then, the notion of an error for all 3 metioned groups is different. It may surprise you, but even for mathematicians this is not always simple: for example consider Euler's claim that the sum of all natural numbers is equal to (-1/12). Was that an error? What seems a nonsense in 18th century and clearly an error in 19th century, appeared a brilliant prophecy in 20th century. Well, it is true that such a case is very rare in mathematics; but for decision makers, magagers, politicians and even for military officers this isn't so rare: explicit decision may seem obviously wrong, but its consequences appear surprisingly good - so, was there really an error? Finally, what really matters here is not errors themselves, but excuses for the members of the latter group. Excuses not only for the front-line error-makers, and even not for their staff members, but most surely for their "human programmers" - those who educated them, drilled them and consulted them. Alexander Kopilovitch aek@vib.usr.pu.ru Saint-Petersburg Russia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org 2003-08-02 2:11 F22 Raptor in slashdot.org Dale Stanbrough 2003-08-03 18:09 ` Robert Love 2003-08-04 12:49 ` Dmytry Lavrov @ 2003-09-07 13:54 ` Adrian Hoe 2 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Adrian Hoe @ 2003-09-07 13:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Dale Stanbrough wrote: > There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org. > If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this > it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info. > > Dale > The Chinese new generation jet fighter rolled out recently in Cheng-du has its fly-by-wire and combat and target management systems developed in Ada. This magnificent Super 7 (formerly known as FC 1) has many modern architectures including software. Adrian Hoe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
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* Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org [not found] <20030805004243.PORT23233.fed1mtao03.cox.net@robertqgx6k4x9> @ 2003-08-05 1:37 ` sk 0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: sk @ 2003-08-05 1:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada rleif@cox.net: > ... Billy Mitchell invented the aircraft carrier ... For a different view on aircraft carrier evolution, visit http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/car-toc.htm -- ------------------------------------------------- -- Merge vertically for real address -- -- s n p @ t . o -- k i e k c c m ------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-09-07 13:54 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 24+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2003-08-02 2:11 F22 Raptor in slashdot.org Dale Stanbrough 2003-08-03 18:09 ` Robert Love 2003-08-05 2:29 ` Richard Riehle 2003-08-05 11:47 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-04 12:49 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-04 12:42 ` Wojtek Narczynski 2003-08-04 20:02 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-05 0:28 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-08-05 0:42 ` rleif 2003-08-05 0:53 ` Hyman Rosen 2003-08-05 5:30 ` Vinzent Hoefler 2003-08-05 6:47 ` Hyman Rosen 2003-08-05 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-08-05 11:29 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-05 22:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-08-06 8:14 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-08-06 11:33 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-05 6:53 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-08-04 14:04 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-08-04 19:58 ` Dmytry Lavrov 2003-08-04 19:24 ` tmoran 2003-08-07 0:27 ` Alexander Kopilovitch 2003-09-07 13:54 ` Adrian Hoe [not found] <20030805004243.PORT23233.fed1mtao03.cox.net@robertqgx6k4x9> 2003-08-05 1:37 ` sk
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