* Microsoft takes on ACT @ 2002-05-23 15:24 Ted Dennison 2002-05-23 16:09 ` Marin David Condic ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-23 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw) I'm curious what, if any, response ACT has to Microsoft's recent efforts to convince the DoD to ban Free Software. (see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60050-2002May22.html ). Seeing as ACT's supported products would qualify, this would seem to be a direct attack on their business (or at least some of it, I have no clue what % of ACT customers are DoD and contractors, but I understand its >0). This is fairly big news, and I'm interested in what the ACT folks around here think of it, given that they seem to be on the "bad end" of Microsoft's guns on this one. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 15:24 Microsoft takes on ACT Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-23 16:09 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 13:31 ` Ted Dennison ` (2 more replies) 2002-05-23 18:01 ` Wes Groleau ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 3 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-23 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw) I like how they cite that it is more secure and less expensive. (Obviously - if there are a million eyes scanning over the code, its a lot harder to sneak in a back door. Do you trust Micro$oft not to do that? :-) In a sense, the DoD has been in the "Open Source" business from early on. I couldn't tell you how many projects it would cover, but I know that *some* (at least one, possibly all) projects had the DoD retaining all data rights to the software developed for a given project. Hence, so long as it was not classified, one could file a Freedom of Information Act on it and get the source. It was something often done by competitors in the DoD contracting game. (Don't know how widespread that was though...) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:4519e058.0205230724.38617c60@posting.google.com... > I'm curious what, if any, response ACT has to Microsoft's recent > efforts to convince the DoD to ban Free Software. (see > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60050-2002May22.html ). > Seeing as ACT's supported products would qualify, this would seem to > be a direct attack on their business (or at least some of it, I have > no clue what % of ACT customers are DoD and contractors, but I > understand its >0). > > This is fairly big news, and I'm interested in what the ACT folks > around here think of it, given that they seem to be on the "bad end" > of Microsoft's guns on this one. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 16:09 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 13:31 ` Ted Dennison 2002-05-24 14:05 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 14:52 ` Wes Groleau 2002-05-24 20:13 ` Jeffrey Carter 2 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-24 13:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > In a sense, the DoD has been in the "Open Source" business from early on. I > couldn't tell you how many projects it would cover, but I know that *some* > (at least one, possibly all) projects had the DoD retaining all data rights > to the software developed for a given project. Hence, so long as it was not That's been my experience too. I think that's what *all* users would demand, given they had enough clout to do it. The DoD just happens to have the clout. :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 13:31 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-24 14:05 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 14:26 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Any user can have the full rights to any software they want. All it takes is a willingness to write up a cost-plus contract. :-) I don't know if the DoD gets full data rights - clout or not - for things they buy off the shelf. (Do you think they've got the source for Micro$oft Word? Would they really want it? :-) But usually, if they're paying the freight to get the software developed, they're going to own it when its done. You and I can do the same - just get out the checkbook. :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:3CEE40A9.4010500@telepath.com... > > That's been my experience too. I think that's what *all* users would > demand, given they had enough clout to do it. The DoD just happens to > have the clout. :-) > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 14:05 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-25 14:26 ` Ted Dennison 2002-05-28 15:42 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-25 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > Any user can have the full rights to any software they want. All it takes is > a willingness to write up a cost-plus contract. :-) I don't know if the DoD > gets full data rights - clout or not - for things they buy off the shelf. No they don't. That's one of the contaversies about their going to COTS software. (At least it was 5 years ago when I last went through this). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-25 14:26 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-28 15:42 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-28 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw) I know they didn't always get full data rights to everything in some of the contexts in which I dealt with the DoD - but that might depend on what one means by "full data rights". Usually they got access to source code - even COTS - if it went into the deliverable end product. They would usually "own" what we developed for them while not owning, say, the compiler's RTK. But remember, this was "embedded" work. I'd imagine if you built a system that ran on top of Unix or Windows, they wouldn't expect to get the source to those OS's. (Come to think of it, we did support systems like that for them from time to time & I don't recall that the OS was much of an issue in the contracts.) But does DoD want or need the source to Microsoft Word for all the clerks & secretaries that are typing memos in the Pentagon? Probably not any moreso than General Motors. There might be advantages to Open Source stuff in this area (price, portability of the data, etc.) but it isn't obvious that the advantages make Open Source the hands-down winner. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:3CEF9F06.2050109@telepath.com... > Marin David Condic wrote: > > > Any user can have the full rights to any software they want. All it takes is > > a willingness to write up a cost-plus contract. :-) I don't know if the DoD > > gets full data rights - clout or not - for things they buy off the shelf. > > > No they don't. That's one of the contaversies about their going to COTS > software. (At least it was 5 years ago when I last went through this). > > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 16:09 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 13:31 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-24 14:52 ` Wes Groleau 2002-05-24 20:13 ` Jeffrey Carter 2 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Wes Groleau @ 2002-05-24 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw) > if there are a million eyes scanning over the code, its a lot harder to > sneak in a back door. Do you trust Micro$oft not to do that? :-) They've already been caught doing that at least once. -- Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 16:09 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 13:31 ` Ted Dennison 2002-05-24 14:52 ` Wes Groleau @ 2002-05-24 20:13 ` Jeffrey Carter 2 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-05-24 20:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > > I like how they cite that it is more secure and less expensive. (Obviously - > if there are a million eyes scanning over the code, its a lot harder to > sneak in a back door. Do you trust Micro$oft not to do that? :-) Indeed, Mitre Corp. prepared a report for the DoD in May recommending open source rather than proprietary S/W. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60050-2002May22.html -- Jeff Carter "Go and boil your bottoms." Monty Python & the Holy Grail ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 15:24 Microsoft takes on ACT Ted Dennison 2002-05-23 16:09 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-23 18:01 ` Wes Groleau 2002-05-23 18:30 ` tmoran 2002-05-23 18:43 ` Microsoft takes on ACT chris.danx 2002-05-23 19:54 ` Microsoft takes on ACT sk 2002-05-24 8:08 ` Dewi Daniels 3 siblings, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Wes Groleau @ 2002-05-23 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw) > I'm curious what, if any, response ACT has to Microsoft's recent > efforts to convince the DoD to ban Free Software. (see I'm interested in ACT's reaction also. Putting this one along with MANY other Microsoft actions recently, my reaction is that Microsoft must be in big trouble to be so panicky lately about Open Source. -- Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 18:01 ` Wes Groleau @ 2002-05-23 18:30 ` tmoran 2002-05-23 21:21 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-23 18:43 ` Microsoft takes on ACT chris.danx 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2002-05-23 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw) > my reaction is that Microsoft must be in big trouble > to be so panicky lately about Open Source. "Poor MS, far from being a monopoly, is fighting for its life against the flood of Open Source software, judge." Right. ;) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 18:30 ` tmoran @ 2002-05-23 21:21 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 14:02 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-23 21:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Ahhhhh, but this fits nicely with the theory of Free Markets. (In theory at least) In a totally free market, nobody could maintain a monopoly on anything forever. This is because there are always substitutes and sooner or later an alternate supplier will emerge. (Of course, sooner or later, we'll all be dead, too. :-) Of course, this doesn't mean Micro$oft is not a monopoly - just a business that if they are a monopoly, they are about to become part of an Oligopoly - or maybe just another player among many. Why else would they be so scared of Open Source? Its allowing smaller players to emerge and chip away at their market. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com <tmoran@acm.org> wrote in message news:UyaH8.111$BO4.28598537@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com... > > my reaction is that Microsoft must be in big trouble > > to be so panicky lately about Open Source. > "Poor MS, far from being a monopoly, is fighting for its life against > the flood of Open Source software, judge." Right. ;) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 21:21 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 14:02 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 14:31 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 18:45 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Frank J. Lhota 0 siblings, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-24 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 23 May 2002 17:21:56 -0400, Marin David Condic wrote: > Ahhhhh, but this fits nicely with the theory of Free Markets. (In theory at > least) In a totally free market, nobody could maintain a monopoly on > anything forever. This is because there are always substitutes and sooner or > later an alternate supplier will emerge. (Of course, sooner or later, we'll > all be dead, too. :-) What is a totally free market? Looking at the "Free" Markets today one see that companies gets bigger and bigger and fewer and fewer. I think ideal theory cannot be applied to the current market. The reason why for instance Linux does well is that it is outside the market. If Linux had been a company, Microsoft would have bought it and dismantled it in order to keep its place. Now they try by spreading FUD. Read: GNU.org.pe: Peruvian Congressman's Open Letter to Microsoft http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-05-06-012-26-OS-SM-LL The Free Market revolves around the survival of the fittest which means you will always get large companies dominating and smaller companies trying to grow up to overturn the "leader". The problem is that the bigger companies won't play fair. The advantage smaller comanies may have is that they can be more dynamic. Another problem is the cost barrier to get into a market which may be extremely high. Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 14:02 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-24 14:31 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 5:48 ` OT: " tmoran 2002-05-25 7:58 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 18:45 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Frank J. Lhota 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw) "Preben Randhol" <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message news:slrnaesi0h.49v.randhol+abuse@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no... > > What is a totally free market? Looking at the "Free" Markets today one There is no such thing as a "totally free market" and I doubt there ever has been. There are always some parts of any economy that are what is called "command economy". (Police protection, fire protection, public libraries, etc. are all examples of "command" aspects of the economy.) > see that companies gets bigger and bigger and fewer and fewer. I think Not at all true. Actually, quite the opposite. "Free" markets are for the most part driven by small businesses. Generally, the less they tend towards "Command" economies, the easier it is for small businesses to start up, gain a toe hold and become successful. The more an economy tends towards a "Command" economy, the more it tends to breed large, inefficient, politically driven and unaccountable organizations to deliver goods and services. > ideal theory cannot be applied to the current market. The reason why for > instance Linux does well is that it is outside the market. If Linux had How is Linux outside the market? "The Market" is just a word for the means of distributing economic goods. How is Linux not an economic good? How is it not distributed? And just because someone doesn't get paid for the distribution of the razor doesn't mean they aren't going to get paid for the distribution of the blades. Linux is very much a part of "The Market" and it isn't "Free" (beer) - *someone* pays. > been a company, Microsoft would have bought it and dismantled it in > order to keep its place. Now they try by spreading FUD. > You may be right if Linux had been a closed source, proprietary thing. However, Linux *could* have been a company and *still* been in a position to threaten Microsoft. ACT is a company and they build GNAT for fun and profit, yet it is still open source and of some potential threat to Microsoft. > Read: > > GNU.org.pe: Peruvian Congressman's Open Letter to Microsoft > http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-05-06-012-26-OS-SM-LL > > The Free Market revolves around the survival of the fittest which means > you will always get large companies dominating and smaller companies Not at all true. Sure, there is a tendency for successful companies to get more successful, but there is also a tendency for large companies to get "too large" for their own good & they are easily beaten by smaller, more agile companies. History is repleat with examples. IBM? Where did Compaq, Dell and Gateway get the idea they could ever kick IBM's butt when they were just little guys starting out in garages? > trying to grow up to overturn the "leader". The problem is that the > bigger companies won't play fair. The advantage smaller comanies may Where does it say on the admission ticket that existence is "fair"? :-) > have is that they can be more dynamic. Another problem is the cost > barrier to get into a market which may be extremely high. > There are really big barriers to entry and exit in lots of businesses. Power generation, automobile manufacture, shipbuilding, etc. *Software* is not one of them. All you need is a PC, a compiler and an Internet connection. Why is Microsoft in trouble? Because the barriers to entry are low and other players are emerging with products that compete nicely with theirs and they can't come up with something new & fascinating to capture hoards of new customers. Markets work. I'm not against some regulation by government to make sure that companies don't do bad things - like pollute Lake Erie or lie to their investors. However, you really have a kind of a line on which to choose from as to how you want to distribute goods and services: {Totally-Free-Market}.........................................{Total Command Economy} You have to pick where on that line you want to fall. Hint: The closer people have come to the right-hand-side, the more they have generated poverty, oppression and failure. :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* OT: Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 14:31 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-25 5:48 ` tmoran 2002-05-28 15:50 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 7:58 ` Preben Randhol 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2002-05-25 5:48 UTC (permalink / raw) > Markets work. Consideration of the economic characteristics of software production, and observation of the recent history of information and communication companies does tend to test one's faith. But all will surely be resolved by Judgement Day. Doubting Thomas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-25 5:48 ` OT: " tmoran @ 2002-05-28 15:50 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-28 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) While I'll be the last one to defend Capitalism as always being fair, equitable, ethical or saintly, my observation is this: Capitalism may be a lousy system and full of all sorts of flaws & abuses, but so far I've not heard anyone outline or implement a system that didn't end up worse. Capitalism isn't even a "system" in the sense that nobody sat down in an ivory tower one day and dreampt it up and wrote a manifesto describing it and how everyone should implement it by law. Capitalism is just what people do when you leave them alone. Human freedom in action - complete with the human freedom to do wrong. Maybe we ought to find a way to get this back on topic. :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com <tmoran@acm.org> wrote in message news:CAFH8.367$JA7.67654820@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com... > > Markets work. > Consideration of the economic characteristics of software production, > and observation of the recent history of information and communication > companies does tend to test one's faith. But all will surely be > resolved by Judgement Day. > Doubting Thomas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 14:31 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 5:48 ` OT: " tmoran @ 2002-05-25 7:58 ` Preben Randhol 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-25 7:58 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:31:01 -0400, Marin David Condic wrote: >> >> What is a totally free market? Looking at the "Free" Markets today one > > There is no such thing as a "totally free market" and I doubt there ever has > been. There are always some parts of any economy that are what is called > "command economy". (Police protection, fire protection, public libraries, > etc. are all examples of "command" aspects of the economy.) What has this to do with the "market" being free or not. You can also add: Schools, army, hospitals etc... It depends in which country you are. American hospitals are private (at least most) but as I recall they are not at all cost effiecient compared to hospitals in other countries where this service is in the "command economy" sector. >> see that companies gets bigger and bigger and fewer and fewer. I think > > Not at all true. Actually, quite the opposite. "Free" markets are for the > most part driven by small businesses. Generally, the less they tend towards > "Command" economies, the easier it is for small businesses to start up, gain > a toe hold and become successful. The more an economy tends towards a > "Command" economy, the more it tends to breed large, inefficient, > politically driven and unaccountable organizations to deliver goods and > services. Ok you are discussion something else. I have not said anywhere that one shouldn't have a free market I was just commenting on some of its flaws. But it is quite typical that if one do this one gets stamped as being on the other side. I don't understand why. >> been a company, Microsoft would have bought it and dismantled it in >> order to keep its place. Now they try by spreading FUD. >> > You may be right if Linux had been a closed source, proprietary thing. > However, Linux *could* have been a company and *still* been in a position to > threaten Microsoft. ACT is a company and they build GNAT for fun and profit, > yet it is still open source and of some potential threat to Microsoft. Look at the history of f.ex M$ and you will see that they have bought a lot of companies to keep its position. You can start with Corel. >> >> The Free Market revolves around the survival of the fittest which means >> you will always get large companies dominating and smaller companies > > Not at all true. Sure, there is a tendency for successful companies to get > more successful, but there is also a tendency for large companies to get > "too large" for their own good & they are easily beaten by smaller, more > agile companies. History is repleat with examples. IBM? Where did Compaq, > Dell and Gateway get the idea they could ever kick IBM's butt when they were > just little guys starting out in garages? But this is survival of the fittest. The bigger companies gets bigger and bigger and then they may fall over if/when they get too static. >> trying to grow up to overturn the "leader". The problem is that the >> bigger companies won't play fair. The advantage smaller comanies may > > Where does it say on the admission ticket that existence is "fair"? :-) It is the foundation of Free market. > Markets work. I'm not against some regulation by government to make sure > that companies don't do bad things - like pollute Lake Erie or lie to their > investors. However, you really have a kind of a line on which to choose from > as to how you want to distribute goods and services: > > {Totally-Free-Market}.........................................{Total Command > Economy} > > You have to pick where on that line you want to fall. Hint: The closer > people have come to the right-hand-side, the more they have generated > poverty, oppression and failure. :-) Actually that is not true at all. The closer you get to either side of your line the more poverty and class distinction you will find. I visited Denver for a conference and in one week I was begged for money more times than in other west European country. No I believe more in a balanced point somewhere on this line. Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 14:02 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 14:31 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 18:45 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-24 19:05 ` Preben Randhol ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-24 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw) All of this reminds me of the economic bestseller "The New Industrial State", written by the renowned Harvard professor and former presidential advisor, John Kenneth Galbraith. In this highly influential book, Galbraith states that "The riskiness of modern corporate life is in fact the harmless conceit of the modern corporate executive ... no large United States corporation, which is also large in its industry, has failed or been seriously in danger of insolvency in many years. [General Motors] is large enough to control its markets " The idea that leading corporations are invincible seems quite in tune with a lot of current economic thought. In spite of this, the book is now a bit embarrassing; it is now quoted more by Galbraith's opponents than by his defenders. The problem with "The New Industrial State" is that it was written in 1967, and since then many of the book's examples of companies that were unbeatable has taken a beating. Contrary to the book's contention, we have seen major retailers go bankrupt: we may soon see K-Mart join the ranks of Montgomery Ward, Grants, Gimbels , and Child World. GM has lost control of its market. Galbraith does write about a retailer whose dominance cannot be challenged, but it was not Wal-Mart. And in the area of computers, this tome treats the very idea that some guys working out of a garage could threaten IBM's dominance with great derision. In short, the notion that Microsoft is impervious to challengers from smaller companies (are there any other kind) should be taken with a grain of salt. Microsoft once played the role of David against IBM's Goliath; now that Microsoft is in the role of Goliath, it would take just one company with the next great new idea to bring MS to its knees. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 18:45 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-24 19:05 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 19:51 ` Marin David Condic ` (2 more replies) 2002-05-24 19:34 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 20:29 ` OT: " David Marceau 2 siblings, 3 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-24 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 24 May 2002 18:45:18 GMT, Frank J. Lhota wrote: > > In short, the notion that Microsoft is impervious to challengers from > smaller companies (are there any other kind) should be taken with a grain of > salt. Microsoft once played the role of David against IBM's Goliath; now > that Microsoft is in the role of Goliath, it would take just one company > with the next great new idea to bring MS to its knees. Yes, but then you need goverments that take action when the free market doesn't work because the biggest companies uses illegal methods to keep their position. You do not need goverments who looks the other way and says "ok, but next time try to keep it secret". The problem with the free market is that the only steering comitee it is supposed to have is the consumers. This is not enough. There will always be the collective irrationalism to hinder it, besides the consumers do not have any means of dealing with the cheating in the free market. If you think so, then tell me why people stick to the hopless Word wordprocessor of writing documents when there are better alternatives. Because everybody else uses Word. See what I mean? And speaking of free market, why does the USA impose a tax on imported steel now? Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 19:05 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-24 19:51 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 8:12 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 19:57 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-24 20:54 ` Larry Kilgallen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw) "Preben Randhol" <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message news:slrnaet3n4.1kd.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no... > > Yes, but then you need goverments that take action when the free market > doesn't work because the biggest companies uses illegal methods to keep > their position. You do not need goverments who looks the other way and > says "ok, but next time try to keep it secret". > The concept of a "Free Market" is not quite up there with "Total Chaos" and those who espouse free markets do not generally condone criminal behavior. We do need governments to establish laws governing conduct in the marketplace so that fraud, theft, chaos and destruction are not used as tools of commerce. (Businessmen are just as capable of being corrupt as are politicians. Fortunately, they don't usually control the army and police force. :-) But that doesn't mean that we therefore need governments deciding what should be made, how it should be made, when it should be made, to whom it should be given, etc. etc. etc. That is a "Command" economy and every one ever created has either already collapsed or is on the verge of collapsing. > The problem with the free market is that the only steering comitee it is > supposed to have is the consumers. This is not enough. There will always > be the collective irrationalism to hinder it, besides the consumers do > not have any means of dealing with the cheating in the free market. If > you think so, then tell me why people stick to the hopless Word > wordprocessor of writing documents when there are better alternatives. > Because everybody else uses Word. See what I mean? > Markets may be Efficient, but they are not necessarily Fast. Word didn't gain its dominance by not offering the customer some kind of value they couldn't get elsewhere. Once it got its dominance, it can hang onto it for a good long time, but eventually a better product that better satisfies what the market wants can and will supplant Word. (Star Office is making inroads to the market is it not?) And if the choice of Word is irrational, what substitute would we have to make the "choice" of word processors more rational? A committee in Washington deciding what the current best offering is for word processing & then mandating it be used by all computer users? I'd rather leave it to the irrational market. :-) > And speaking of free market, why does the USA impose a tax on imported > steel now? > Who said everyone who votes in the United States is a Milton Friedman Free Market Advocate in good standing? Voters here run the gammut all the way from Pure, Unadultrated Fat-Free Capitalists to Absolute Totalitarian Command Economy Communists and every stripe in between. Politicians who want to buy votes will cater to the desires of the interest groups out there who want all sorts of stupid things - including the right to pick the pockets of their neighbors to buy the stuff they want. Just because an idea is *stupid* doesn't mean you can't convince a bunch of voters to back it. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 19:51 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-25 8:12 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 10:31 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 20:09 ` Robert C. Leif 0 siblings, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-25 8:12 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 24 May 2002 15:51:35 -0400, Marin David Condic wrote: > The concept of a "Free Market" is not quite up there with "Total Chaos" and > those who espouse free markets do not generally condone criminal behavior. I meet with some Americans from the oil industry and they said. Nobody (in USA) is willing to pay more for a more enviromental oil production. The goverment would need legislate a restriction for the oil companies so they have change the production. I don't say it is criminal behavior at all, I just want to point out that there are other things to take into account than just economy. That is why you need somebody who can steer the market. > Fortunately, they don't usually control the army and police force. :-) > But that doesn't mean that we therefore need governments deciding what > should be made, how it should be made, when it should be made, to whom > it should be given, etc. etc. etc. That is a "Command" economy and > every one ever created has either already collapsed or is on the verge > of collapsing. See above. But there are actually people out there building theories on how one could have everything private, police, army, judges etc... > Word. (Star Office is making inroads to the market is it not?) I think it is due to: 1. Microsofts new licensing policy 2. It can read/write Word files. Although I haven't tried it lately. 3. It is cheaper. 4. It is available on several platforms. In this order of importance. > And if the choice of Word is irrational, what substitute would we have > to make the "choice" of word processors more rational? A committee in > Washington deciding what the current best offering is for word > processing & then mandating it be used by all computer users? I'd > rather leave it to the irrational market. :-) No I was saying a standard open file format, like HTML is for the web. (Only something much better than HTML though) XML seems to be making inroads. > Who said everyone who votes in the United States is a Milton Friedman > Free Market Advocate in good standing? Voters here run the gammut all > the way from Pure, Unadultrated Fat-Free Capitalists to Absolute > Totalitarian Command Economy Communists and every stripe in between. > Politicians who want to buy votes will cater to the desires of the > interest groups out there who want all sorts of stupid things - > including the right to pick the pockets of their neighbors to buy the > stuff they want. Just because an idea is *stupid* doesn't mean you > can't convince a bunch of voters to back it. Are you having elections for congress or something now? Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 8:12 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-25 10:31 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 12:16 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 15:40 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 20:09 ` Robert C. Leif 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 10:31 UTC (permalink / raw) "Preben Randhol" <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message news:slrnaeuhr5.pa.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no... > I meet with some Americans from the oil industry and they said. Nobody > (in USA) is willing to pay more for a more enviromental oil > production. And you never considered the possibility that oil industry insiders might have some bias on this issue? :) If your point is that US consumers are not willing to pay more for enviromentally friendly products, I can think of many counterexamples. In several areas of the country, you can now choose your electric company. When consumers were given a choice, many opted for energy producers who charged substantially higher rates, but promised to generate the electricity more cleanly. > Are you having elections for congress or something now? The next election is in the fall. Every other year, on the Tuesday in November, there is a U.S. election in which every seat in the House of Representative, and one third of the Senate seats, are up for grabs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 10:31 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 12:16 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 15:40 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-25 12:16 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 25 May 2002 06:31:32 -0400, Frank J. Lhota wrote: > > And you never considered the possibility that oil industry insiders might > have some bias on this issue? :) Ah sorry I was a bit unclear. It was not only oil industry people and they were actually hoping the government would do something. Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 10:31 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 12:16 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-25 15:40 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 17:08 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-06-07 22:14 ` Randy Brukardt 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-25 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.FrankLho@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<acnp5u$a28$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > If your point is that US consumers are not willing to pay more for > enviromentally friendly products, I can think of many counterexamples. In > several areas of the country, you can now choose your electric company. When > consumers were given a choice, many opted for energy producers who charged > substantially higher rates, but promised to generate the electricity more > cleanly. Can you cite chapter and verse on this? Sounds like the kind of thing that someone heard someone else say and uncritically passed it on. People always like to pass on things that are consistent with their political agendas :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 15:40 ` Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-25 17:08 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-06-07 22:14 ` Randy Brukardt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw) > Can you cite chapter and verse on this? "Where Electricity Deregulation Works", WSJ, May 16, 2001. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 15:40 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 17:08 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-06-07 22:14 ` Randy Brukardt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2002-06-07 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote in message <5ee5b646.0205250740.196d20c5@posting.google.com>... >"Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.FrankLho@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<acnp5u$a28$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... >> If your point is that US consumers are not willing to pay more for >> enviromentally friendly products, I can think of many counterexamples. In >> several areas of the country, you can now choose your electric company. When >> consumers were given a choice, many opted for energy producers who charged >> substantially higher rates, but promised to generate the electricity more >> cleanly. > > >Can you cite chapter and verse on this? Sounds like the >kind of thing that someone heard someone else say and >uncritically passed it on. People always like to pass >on things that are consistent with their political >agendas :-) Our local electric company in Madison (of which I am a stockholder) sells blocks of wind power to customers here for a surcharge over the regular rate. They claim to have sold them out and have a waiting list (and this is confirmed by the financial statements). I can't say anything about that in general, but certainly it is true in a small way here in Madison. Randy Brukardt. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* RE: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 8:12 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 10:31 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 20:09 ` Robert C. Leif 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert C. Leif @ 2002-05-25 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw) From: Bob Leif To: Preben Randhol et al. A word processor in XML that was based on XML schemas and XSL for presentation would be a very competitive product. If the tables in this word processor were in XML, they could combine the best of a spreadsheet and a standard table. The graphics can be done in XML SVG. The user interface should be XForms. And, the implementation language should be Ada. The macro language should be an Ada J Code compiler. The combination of XML and Ada should be very effective in producing commercial applications. Now, all we need are some entrepreneurs. -----Original Message----- From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org [mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Preben Randhol Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 1:12 AM To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org Subject: Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history On Fri, 24 May 2002 15:51:35 -0400, Marin David Condic wrote: > The concept of a "Free Market" is not quite up there with "Total Chaos" and > those who espouse free markets do not generally condone criminal behavior. I meet with some Americans from the oil industry and they said. Nobody (in USA) is willing to pay more for a more enviromental oil production. The goverment would need legislate a restriction for the oil companies so they have change the production. I don't say it is criminal behavior at all, I just want to point out that there are other things to take into account than just economy. That is why you need somebody who can steer the market. > Fortunately, they don't usually control the army and police force. :-) > But that doesn't mean that we therefore need governments deciding what > should be made, how it should be made, when it should be made, to whom > it should be given, etc. etc. etc. That is a "Command" economy and > every one ever created has either already collapsed or is on the verge > of collapsing. See above. But there are actually people out there building theories on how one could have everything private, police, army, judges etc... > Word. (Star Office is making inroads to the market is it not?) I think it is due to: 1. Microsofts new licensing policy 2. It can read/write Word files. Although I haven't tried it lately. 3. It is cheaper. 4. It is available on several platforms. In this order of importance. > And if the choice of Word is irrational, what substitute would we have > to make the "choice" of word processors more rational? A committee in > Washington deciding what the current best offering is for word > processing & then mandating it be used by all computer users? I'd > rather leave it to the irrational market. :-) No I was saying a standard open file format, like HTML is for the web. (Only something much better than HTML though) XML seems to be making inroads. > Who said everyone who votes in the United States is a Milton Friedman > Free Market Advocate in good standing? Voters here run the gammut all > the way from Pure, Unadultrated Fat-Free Capitalists to Absolute > Totalitarian Command Economy Communists and every stripe in between. > Politicians who want to buy votes will cater to the desires of the > interest groups out there who want all sorts of stupid things - > including the right to pick the pockets of their neighbors to buy the > stuff they want. Just because an idea is *stupid* doesn't mean you > can't convince a bunch of voters to back it. Are you having elections for congress or something now? Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 19:05 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 19:51 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 19:57 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-24 20:35 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 20:54 ` Larry Kilgallen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-24 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol" <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message news:slrnaet3n4.1kd.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no... > Yes, but then you need goverments that take action when the free market > doesn't work because the biggest companies uses illegal methods to keep > their position. You do not need goverments who looks the other way and > says "ok, but next time try to keep it secret". Yes, but isn't this a "straw man" argument? Who, outside of doctrinaire anarchists, has ever argued that companies of any size should be allowed to use illegal methods? > The problem with the free market is that the only steering comitee it is > supposed to have is the consumers. This is not enough. There will always > be the collective irrationalism to hinder it, besides the consumers do > not have any means of dealing with the cheating in the free market. If > you think so, then tell me why people stick to the hopless Word > wordprocessor of writing documents when there are better alternatives. > Because everybody else uses Word. See what I mean? Yes, I do. Ever since I've worked on PC's, there has been a word processor that was so dominant that no one would entertain any alternative. When I first did DOS development, that Word Processor was WordStar from MicroPro. Later, the word processor that held more than 50% of the marketplace was WordPerfect. At the time, it seemed that with so many people trained in WordPerfect and so many existing documents in WordPerfect format, nobody would change word processors. Given the history of this market, why should we believe that Microsoft Word is the perpetual word processor champion? > And speaking of free market, why does the USA impose a tax on imported > steel now? The answer is obvious: it's a bald attempt to buy votes. Outside of politics, the imported steel tariff is a terrible idea. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 19:57 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-24 20:35 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 0:41 ` Frank J. Lhota 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-24 20:35 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 24 May 2002 19:57:01 GMT, Frank J. Lhota wrote: > Yes, but isn't this a "straw man" argument? Who, outside of doctrinaire > anarchists, has ever argued that companies of any size should be allowed to > use illegal methods? Silence is consent. It doesn't matter if everybody disagrees if nobody acts. > Yes, I do. Ever since I've worked on PC's, there has been a word processor > that was so dominant that no one would entertain any alternative. When I > first did DOS development, that Word Processor was WordStar from MicroPro. > Later, the word processor that held more than 50% of the marketplace was > WordPerfect. At the time, it seemed that with so many people trained in > WordPerfect and so many existing documents in WordPerfect format, nobody > would change word processors. Given the history of this market, why should > we believe that Microsoft Word is the perpetual word processor champion? It looks finally to be shaking, but perhaps more because of Microsofts own decisions than anything else. Another reasons is that other word processors are mimicking it. Making them little better (actually sometimes worse as they have to guess the format of the Word files). The marked would be more free if the document format is standardised. Then it doesn't matter which implementation is used. If somebody likes Word then they can use this and somebody else can use Abiword/KWord/Staroffice etc.. in stead. Then you could start paying for quality software and support rather than buggy crap. Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 20:35 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-25 0:41 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-28 16:14 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 0:41 UTC (permalink / raw) For the record, WordPerfect used a different file format than WordStar, and Microsoft Word has a different format from either one of them. The file format issue, bothersome as it might be, is surmountable, as the legions of users who have made the transitions to new word processors can attest. Actually, it is now easier than ever to switch word processors, thanks to the RTF format. Also, the notion that the only way to compete with Word is to look more like Word is completed wrong. MS Word will always look more like MS Word than any other word processor. To take on Word, one needs to do something substantially better than Word. My biggest gripe with Word is performance: when I edit a large document with Word, my PC starts to resemble a 286. The latest version of StarOffice may very well do that by taking on Word on several fronts: lower price (obviously), a cleaner interface, and (thank God!) better performance. If StarOffice doesn't replace Word, I'm sure that something else will. And I am just as sure that once a new company overtakes Microsoft, everyone will be pontificating that the new company will never lose its #1 spot. :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 0:41 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-28 16:14 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 16:18 ` Stephen Leake 2002-05-29 20:34 ` John Doe 0 siblings, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-28 16:14 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.FrankLho@rcn.com> wrote in message news:acmmk8$jbp$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > For the record, WordPerfect used a different file format than WordStar, and > Microsoft Word has a different format from either one of them. The file > format issue, bothersome as it might be, is surmountable, as the legions of > users who have made the transitions to new word processors can attest. > Actually, it is now easier than ever to switch word processors, thanks to > the RTF format. > In the end, this really doesn't make much difference. How long does the average document live? A few days? A few months? How much work is it to totally recreate the document if suddenly your favorite word processor disappeared from the face of the earth? Don't most word processors provide some means of importing and exporting file formats other than their own? (I know the copy of MS-Word I have here seems to be able to do that...) In other words, this seems to be a tempest in a teapot. Its a little like insisting that all microprocessors execute the same instruction set so that all software would be totally portable - its an unreasonable restriction on innovation and it doesn't really buy you anything. > > And I am just as sure that once a new company overtakes Microsoft, everyone > will be pontificating that the new company will never lose its #1 spot. :) > And we'll all be complaining about what a bunch of unfair bastards they are for having done it the way they did and thus gained a total, unbreakable monopoly on the market. It won't matter if they did it all Open Source and public file formats. If someone becomes a dominant player, there will be a bunch of us hating them for it. (Lets come back here in ten years when the full impact of open source is apparent & see if there isn't a large contingent out there arguing in favor of totally proprietary, closed systems...:-) No company owns their place in the market, so I have faith that they'll either have to produce value for their customers at a competitive price, or someone else will. It may take time for things to correct & balance, but on the whole it works. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-28 16:14 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-29 16:18 ` Stephen Leake 2002-05-29 17:37 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 21:32 ` Dan Andreatta 2002-05-29 20:34 ` John Doe 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2002-05-29 16:18 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > In the end, this really doesn't make much difference. How long does the > average document live? I don't know about the "average" document, but I have some that are 5 years old and still being edited. _Not_ in Word :). Some are in LaTeX, some in FrameMaker. I prefer LaTeX. > A few days? A few months? How much work is it to totally recreate > the document if suddenly your favorite word processor disappeared > from the face of the earth? About 1 man year; it's a large and dense document. > Don't most word processors provide some means of importing and > exporting file formats other than their own? (I know the copy of > MS-Word I have here seems to be able to do that...) Yes, but it's never adequate. If you export RTF from Word, and import it into FrameMaker, you get the bold fonts and stuff, but you totally lose the meta-format of headers, paragraph styles, etc. Well, not _totally_, but you lose enough that I don't try to do it anymore. > In other words, this seems to be a tempest in a teapot. nope. It's a real problem. So far, the only really long-lived document format is flat ASCII, like the Internet RFCs. > Its a little like insisting that all microprocessors execute the > same instruction set so that all software would be totally portable > - its an unreasonable restriction on innovation and it doesn't > really buy you anything. Um, when is the last time you ran a DOS window on a Windows PC? And then ran the latest wizzy graphics game on the _same_ PC? you are benefitting from exactly that requirement! > > And I am just as sure that once a new company overtakes Microsoft, > everyone > will be pontificating that the new company will never > lose its #1 spot. :) > > > And we'll all be complaining about what a bunch of unfair bastards they are > for having done it the way they did and thus gained a total, unbreakable > monopoly on the market. Possibly. > It won't matter if they did it all Open Source and public file > formats. Actually, I think it will matter. Since the only proven way to make money from Open Source is to offer good service that the customers actually want, it will matter a lot. > If someone becomes a dominant player, there will be a bunch of us > hating them for it. (Lets come back here in ten years when the full > impact of open source is apparent & see if there isn't a large > contingent out there arguing in favor of totally proprietary, closed > systems...:-) It will be an interesting experiment. I wonder if comp.lang.ada will be around in 2012? -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-29 16:18 ` Stephen Leake @ 2002-05-29 17:37 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 21:32 ` Dan Andreatta 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-29 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw) "Stephen Leake" <stephen.a.leake.1@gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:ulma3orlo.fsf@gsfc.nasa.gov... > > I don't know about the "average" document, but I have some that are 5 > years old and still being edited. _Not_ in Word :). Some are in LaTeX, > some in FrameMaker. I prefer LaTeX. > Sure, there's things that live a really long time and are really huge. But in most instances, we're looking at memos, homework assignments, newsletters, e-mail messages, etc. The fact that some people have big, long-lived documents doesn't mean that *most* users are going to care that they can't convert their love-letters to Brittany Spears to some other word processor. :-) If in your situation, you care about long document life, then you need to pick a word processor that suits that purpose. Most people who find themselves using Word don't care because its adequate for their needs & they're not worried about long life, constant updates, portability to new technology, etc. > > A few days? A few months? How much work is it to totally recreate > > the document if suddenly your favorite word processor disappeared > > from the face of the earth? > > About 1 man year; it's a large and dense document. > Sure, but I'd suggest that this is the exception rather than the rule. If you've got special needs, you may need special tools. > > Yes, but it's never adequate. If you export RTF from Word, and import > it into FrameMaker, you get the bold fonts and stuff, but you totally > lose the meta-format of headers, paragraph styles, etc. Well, not > _totally_, but you lose enough that I don't try to do it anymore. > Granted, a lot of the exporting/importing is inadequate for a lot of purposes, but I'd still contend that this isn't the major worry in most user's lives. They make a document with Word. It has a shelf-life in which it is maintained with Word. When a better tool comes along, they start their next document with it and Word collects dust. Or they export/import it and do the diddling around to get it looking right again with the new tool. > > nope. It's a real problem. > For some subset of word processor users. It has yet to be demonstrated that this subset is a majority. Or even big enough for some company to think of them as a valuable niche that needs to be catered to. There are word processors out there that will store things in open formats, so I'd suspect there is a niche, but I'm not yet convinced that this is the Top Priority of even the users of those processors. I'm not saying it is a *bad* thing for a word processor to store things in an "open" format. Just that it may not be a major priority for most word processor users. > So far, the only really long-lived document format is flat ASCII, like > the Internet RFCs. > I'm all for that. I think most word-processed stuff is way overkill. I got a big, major improvement moving off of paper & an IBM Selectric and on to zeros & ones with Teco, SOS, vi, EDT, TPU, etc. Moving from there to Word & others, I just don't see much added value for 90% of the things I need to edit. (When you've got to include illustrations, I'd prefer not to do it with ASCII art, so there is *some* value added with the WYSIWYG stuff.) So probably for my own purposes, so long as Word can export to ASCII via some means, and some other processor can suck up ASCII by some means, I don't need to worry that much about document portability. > > Um, when is the last time you ran a DOS window on a Windows PC? And > then ran the latest wizzy graphics game on the _same_ PC? you are > benefitting from exactly that requirement! > And multiple generations of Word have had upward compatibility with their file formats. I remain unimpressed. :-) My point is that if we were to insist that all word processors store their stuff in some specific "open" format, we might be hamstringing innovation. Just as existence of the 80x86 as a "standard" didn't stop DEC from building the Alpha or Sun from developing the Sparc, I wouldn't object to a word processor developing its own "proprietary" file format.If it yields advantages in some contexts, great. If I need "portability" for my documents, I can always find something else to use. > > Actually, I think it will matter. Since the only proven way to make > money from Open Source is to offer good service that the customers > actually want, it will matter a lot. > Yes, but there is always The Law Of Unintended Consequences. Open Source has not been around for a real long time - or if it has been in some senses, it didn't stop proprietary software from being the dominant modus operandi for a long time. Currently, you're right - the model requires good service if a company wants to stay in business. But does that mean there can't be a dominant player? Does it mean that there won't be some big problems with how the model operates that we're just not seeing yet? Consider this: ACT doesn't exactly have a dozen serious competitors to provide maintenance & support for GNAT. Maybe their service is so wonderful and prices so low that nobody wants anyone else. Maybe its too much of a niche market to spawn dozens of competitors. Maybe GNAT is just too big a body of software for some other firm to pick up and build expertise in fast enough to catch up with ACT. Maybe GNAT is under so many changes & revisions by ACT so frequently that a competing vendor couldn't keep up with it or would figure they had to go their own way anyway, so why try to build their business on GNAT? It could be a lot of things, but the point is that there *is* a dominant player with that technology. Is it conceivable that 10 years from now we might see similar dominant players for things like Linux? Is it possible that Red Hat could become so big and powerful that we're all sitting around bitching about what rotten bastards they are and wishing for "The Good Old Days" when we had Bill Gates to kick around? Stranger things have happened in the world and we have not yet seen how the Open Source model might be exploited. Maybe I just have a hard time believing in panaceas. :-) > > It will be an interesting experiment. I wonder if comp.lang.ada will > be around in 2012? > More importantly, will *we* be around in 2012? :-) Ada has been around for twenty or so years. No reason to believe it won't be around for another 20. Has Fortran died out yet? Is there a Comp.Lang.Fortran? I think the odds are pretty good. So what do you say? Let's meet back here in 2012 and ask if Open Source and open word processor formats and Ada are all as wonderful as we think they are now. :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-29 16:18 ` Stephen Leake 2002-05-29 17:37 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-29 21:32 ` Dan Andreatta 2002-05-30 6:35 ` Robert C. Leif ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Dan Andreatta @ 2002-05-29 21:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake <stephen.a.leake.1@gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<ulma3orlo.fsf@gsfc.nasa.gov>... > "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > > some in FrameMaker. I prefer LaTeX. Me too... > > Don't most word processors provide some means of importing and > > exporting file formats other than their own? (I know the copy of > > MS-Word I have here seems to be able to do that...) > > Yes, but it's never adequate. If you export RTF from Word, and import > it into FrameMaker, you get the bold fonts and stuff, but you totally > lose the meta-format of headers, paragraph styles, etc. Well, not > _totally_, but you lose enough that I don't try to do it anymore. > > > In other words, this seems to be a tempest in a teapot. > > nope. It's a real problem. > Some time ago my wife (a chemist like me) had to send a paper to a scientific journal, and the accepted formats were PDF or Word98/Win2000, no other combinations Word/Win accepted... Something is not right here... Dan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* RE: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-29 21:32 ` Dan Andreatta @ 2002-05-30 6:35 ` Robert C. Leif 2002-05-30 14:12 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-30 13:45 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-30 15:11 ` Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert C. Leif @ 2002-05-30 6:35 UTC (permalink / raw) From: Bob Leif To: Dan Andreatta et al. It is interesting that a significant proportion of Ada users are chemists. I suspect that it has to do with our scientific upbringing, which includes an acute sensitivity to the purity of chemicals. Concerning FrameMaker, I am about to receive version 7, which now can create XML DTDs and cascading style sheets. The next step is a document processor that uses schema and XSL. Eventually, the replacement for PDF should be an XML version of a MHT file. The bottom line is that the GUI will be a browser application. -----Original Message----- From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org [mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Dan Andreatta Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 2:32 PM To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org Subject: Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history Stephen Leake <stephen.a.leake.1@gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<ulma3orlo.fsf@gsfc.nasa.gov>... > "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > > some in FrameMaker. I prefer LaTeX. Me too... > > Don't most word processors provide some means of importing and > > exporting file formats other than their own? (I know the copy of > > MS-Word I have here seems to be able to do that...) > > Yes, but it's never adequate. If you export RTF from Word, and import > it into FrameMaker, you get the bold fonts and stuff, but you totally > lose the meta-format of headers, paragraph styles, etc. Well, not > _totally_, but you lose enough that I don't try to do it anymore. > > > In other words, this seems to be a tempest in a teapot. > > nope. It's a real problem. > Some time ago my wife (a chemist like me) had to send a paper to a scientific journal, and the accepted formats were PDF or Word98/Win2000, no other combinations Word/Win accepted... Something is not right here... Dan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-30 6:35 ` Robert C. Leif @ 2002-05-30 14:12 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-31 5:38 ` XML & Ada was " Robert C. Leif 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-30 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw) From what I've seen, I'm not sure why someone would want to use DTDs if they had XSL. It seems that DTDs can't describe data with nearly the same accuracy and that the whole thing is rather clumsy & looks like it was cobbled together out of spare parts. Am I missing something? I'd think that doing anything to mix up Ada and XML ought to go straight to XSL and ignore the existence of DTDs. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Robert C. Leif" <rleif@rleif.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1022740563.12528.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org... > > Concerning FrameMaker, I am about to receive version 7, which now can > create XML DTDs and cascading style sheets. The next step is a document > processor that uses schema and XSL. Eventually, the replacement for PDF > should be an XML version of a MHT file. The bottom line is that the GUI > will be a browser application. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* XML & Ada was RE: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-30 14:12 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-31 5:38 ` Robert C. Leif 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert C. Leif @ 2002-05-31 5:38 UTC (permalink / raw) From: Bob Leif To: Marin David Condic et al. DTDs do not resemble Ada. I believe that we should avoid them. Schemas do resemble collections of Ada data types. I believe that we should embrace schemas. Extensible Stylesheet Language, XSL, is an incredibly powerful formatting language, which looks like it will be retrofitted with a schema. Scalable Vector Graphics, SVG, was created independently of XSL. However, the new specification states: " 2.2. Compatible, Consistent and Extensible SVG 1.1/1.2/2.0 must be as compatible as possible with the SVG 1.0 specification. All elements and attributes should be consistent within SVG, and with external specifications such as CSS and XSL. This includes the naming of elements, the set of available attributes and the style properties that can be used on elements." -----Original Message----- From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org [mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Marin David Condic Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:12 AM To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org Subject: Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history >From what I've seen, I'm not sure why someone would want to use DTDs if they had XSL. It seems that DTDs can't describe data with nearly the same accuracy and that the whole thing is rather clumsy & looks like it was cobbled together out of spare parts. Am I missing something? I'd think that doing anything to mix up Ada and XML ought to go straight to XSL and ignore the existence of DTDs. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Robert C. Leif" <rleif@rleif.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1022740563.12528.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org... > > Concerning FrameMaker, I am about to receive version 7, which now can > create XML DTDs and cascading style sheets. The next step is a document > processor that uses schema and XSL. Eventually, the replacement for PDF > should be an XML version of a MHT file. The bottom line is that the GUI > will be a browser application. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-29 21:32 ` Dan Andreatta 2002-05-30 6:35 ` Robert C. Leif @ 2002-05-30 13:45 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-30 15:11 ` Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-30 13:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Just for the record - I didn't say this. Its an easy error to make but please try to clip the attributions appropriately - it can lead to confusion about who said what. Thanks. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Dan Andreatta" <andreatta@mail.chem.sc.edu> wrote in message news:338040f8.0205291332.70a29d53@posting.google.com... > Stephen Leake <stephen.a.leake.1@gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<ulma3orlo.fsf@gsfc.nasa.gov>... > > "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > > > > some in FrameMaker. I prefer LaTeX. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-29 21:32 ` Dan Andreatta 2002-05-30 6:35 ` Robert C. Leif 2002-05-30 13:45 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-30 15:11 ` Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2002-05-30 15:11 UTC (permalink / raw) andreatta@mail.chem.sc.edu (Dan Andreatta) writes: > Some time ago my wife (a chemist like me) had to send a paper to a > scientific journal, and the accepted formats were PDF or > Word98/Win2000, no other combinations Word/Win accepted... Something > is not right here... Yes, what's not right is that they accept _any_ version of Word :). Sorry, couldn't resist! -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-28 16:14 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 16:18 ` Stephen Leake @ 2002-05-29 20:34 ` John Doe 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: John Doe @ 2002-05-29 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw) > In the end, this really doesn't make much difference. How long does the > average document live? A few days? A few months? How much work is it to > totally recreate the document if suddenly your favorite word processor > disappeared from the face of the earth? Don't most word processors provide .... now that OCR and voice recog is fairly effective .... -- Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 19:05 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 19:51 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 19:57 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-24 20:54 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-05-24 20:26 ` Preben Randhol 2 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-05-24 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <slrnaet3n4.1kd.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>, Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> writes: > The problem with the free market is that the only steering comitee it is > supposed to have is the consumers. This is not enough. There will always > be the collective irrationalism to hinder it, besides the consumers do > not have any means of dealing with the cheating in the free market. Certainly they do. They can band together. One of the earliest examples of this is called "government". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 20:54 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-05-24 20:26 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-28 16:20 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-24 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw) On 24 May 2002 14:54:17 -0600, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <slrnaet3n4.1kd.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>, Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> writes: > >> The problem with the free market is that the only steering comitee it is >> supposed to have is the consumers. This is not enough. There will always >> be the collective irrationalism to hinder it, besides the consumers do >> not have any means of dealing with the cheating in the free market. > > Certainly they do. They can band together. One of the earliest examples > of this is called "government". Heheheh I rest my case ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 20:26 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-28 16:20 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-28 16:20 UTC (permalink / raw) "Preben Randhol" <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message news:slrnaet8fh.ab0.randhol+abuse@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no... > > Heheheh I rest my case ;-) > But it sounds as if you think that anyone who espouses a free market economy is 100% opposed to any government oversight of public conduct. This is obviously not true. I certainly don't think that the government should never get involved in regulating or prosecuting businesses & businessmen. We might differ considerably on exactly how much and when, but I don't think *anyone* makes the case that companies should be able to operate in any manner they see fit and the only people they have to answer to is the consumer (which, by the way, is all of us at some points in time, right?) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 18:45 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-24 19:05 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-24 19:34 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 20:29 ` OT: " David Marceau 2 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message news:2TvH8.1710$Np5.1619@nwrddc01.gnilink.net... > written in 1967, and since then many of the book's examples of companies > that were unbeatable has taken a beating. Contrary to the book's contention, > we have seen major retailers go bankrupt: we may soon see K-Mart join the > ranks of Montgomery Ward, Grants, Gimbels , and Child World. GM has lost > control of its market. Galbraith does write about a retailer whose dominance > cannot be challenged, but it was not Wal-Mart. And in the area of computers, > this tome treats the very idea that some guys working out of a garage could > threaten IBM's dominance with great derision. > Capitalism without failure is like Religion without sin! :-) Never said that it would be easy to challenge the market dominance of a large corporation. Said it can and has happened. > In short, the notion that Microsoft is impervious to challengers from > smaller companies (are there any other kind) should be taken with a grain of > salt. Microsoft once played the role of David against IBM's Goliath; now > that Microsoft is in the role of Goliath, it would take just one company > with the next great new idea to bring MS to its knees. > Maybe a pound of salt. :-) No company is impervious. Any company can fail. We've seen too many examples of very large companies either being displaced as the market leader or outright going bankrupt to be convinced in the imperviousness of any large corporation - given some time, of course. Open Source software and small companies that exploit it could kill or significantly shrink Microsoft. Its Darwin in action! Small companies can now distribute software at near zero cost and recoup their engineering costs in services and are willing to forgo billions in profit in order to more reliably make mere millions (or at least a comfortable living!) and that's just too bad for Microsoft. You adapt, or you die. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 18:45 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-24 19:05 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 19:34 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-24 20:29 ` David Marceau 2002-05-24 20:42 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 0:52 ` Frank J. Lhota 2 siblings, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: David Marceau @ 2002-05-24 20:29 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" wrote: > In short, the notion that Microsoft is impervious to challengers from > smaller companies (are there any other kind) should be taken with a grain of > salt. Microsoft once played the role of David against IBM's Goliath; now > that Microsoft is in the role of Goliath, it would take just one company > with the next great new idea to bring MS to its knees. IMHO "David and Goliath" does not reflect the reality. I may be wrong but from what I understand Mr. Bill Gates has an IBM VIP uncle. I'm not saying Mr. Gates doesn't work hard or doesn't work smart. I'm just saying he has great connections. Good for him. IMHO I perceive it more as "David and UNCLE Goliath" :) Sant� bonheur, David Marceau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 20:29 ` OT: " David Marceau @ 2002-05-24 20:42 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 0:52 ` Frank J. Lhota 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-24 20:42 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 24 May 2002 16:29:58 -0400, David Marceau wrote: > IMHO "David and Goliath" does not reflect the reality. > > I may be wrong but from what I understand Mr. Bill Gates has an IBM VIP > uncle. > I'm not saying Mr. Gates doesn't work hard or doesn't work smart. I'm > just saying he has great connections. > Good for him. > > IMHO I perceive it more as "David and UNCLE Goliath" :) Yes the problem is evident when M$ forces Intel not to embrace Linux or threatens other companies that they will pull out advertisments etc if they touch Linux. Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-24 20:29 ` OT: " David Marceau 2002-05-24 20:42 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-25 0:52 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 11:19 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 15:41 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 0:52 UTC (permalink / raw) > I may be wrong but from what I understand Mr. Bill Gates has an IBM VIP > uncle. > I'm not saying Mr. Gates doesn't work hard or doesn't work smart. I'm > just saying he has great connections. > Good for him. > > IMHO I perceive it more as "David and UNCLE Goliath" :) I think it's time to move this thread to a history of computing NG. In the first years of the IBM/PC, IBM and Microsoft were indeed partners. It was this partnership that produced MS-DOS as the standard OS for IBM's first personal computer. Originally, OS/2 was a joint IBM / MS venture. When OS/2 version 1.x tanked, it created a rift between the two companies. IBM still saw OS/2 as the wave of the future, but Microsoft wanted to drop it and base its new operating systems on Windows. For better or worse, the MS approach won out. In recent years, IBM seems to have lost interest in OS/2 -- hopefully, they'll make OS/2 open source. Now they are enthusiastically backing Linux. Given that, it does not sound like IBM is trying to rekindle a Microsoft partnership. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 0:52 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 11:19 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 11:50 ` Frank J. Lhota ` (3 more replies) 2002-05-25 15:41 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 4 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-25 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.FrankLho@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<acmn8f$lmd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > In the first years of the IBM/PC, IBM and Microsoft were indeed partners. It > was this partnership that produced MS-DOS as the standard OS for IBM's first > personal computer. That's misleading. When the PC came out, it was sold without an operating system. I remember well going into the IBM store (IBM was briefly in the retail business) and buying a machine, and then I asked about the operating system. I was pointed to a bin marked operating systems. I found UCSD, CPM and MS/DOS. I bought a copy of CPM and MS/DOS, and played with both. MS/DOS at that time was purely a microsoft product, and was not specially pushed by IBM, although most certainly IBM had help cause it to be produced. In practice MS/DOS won out in the market place over the other alternatives, because for one thing it was a fraction of the price of the alternatives. I think I still have my copy of CPM :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 11:19 ` Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-25 11:50 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 14:37 ` Steve Doiel ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 11:50 UTC (permalink / raw) > I think I still have my copy of CPM :-) Great! I was once tempted to buy a copy of MS-DOS 1.0 when I saw it for sale for $10. I thought it would make a great curio, although it would be difficult to use it on current PC's. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 11:19 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 11:50 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 14:37 ` Steve Doiel 2002-05-25 16:46 ` ON Topic: Ada for CP/M Frank J. Lhota 2002-06-07 22:10 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Randy Brukardt 3 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Steve Doiel @ 2002-05-25 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw) "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote in message news:5ee5b646.0205250319.324e9ff8@posting.google.com... > "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.FrankLho@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<acmn8f$lmd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > > In the first years of the IBM/PC, IBM and Microsoft were indeed partners. It > > was this partnership that produced MS-DOS as the standard OS for IBM's first > > personal computer. > > That's misleading. When the PC came out, it was sold without an operating > system. I remember well going into the IBM store (IBM was briefly in the > retail business) and buying a machine, and then I asked about the operating > system. I was pointed to a bin marked operating systems. I found UCSD, CPM > and MS/DOS. I bought a copy of CPM and MS/DOS, and played with both. MS/DOS > at that time was purely a microsoft product, and was not specially pushed > by IBM, although most certainly IBM had help cause it to be produced. In > practice MS/DOS won out in the market place over the other alternatives, > because for one thing it was a fraction of the price of the alternatives. Gee. I always thought PCDOS was bundled with those old 16k machines, and the only readily available alternative was CPM86. I associate UCSD with the Apple II's and CPM with the old 8080/Z80 based machines. It was my understanding that IBM paid Microsoft a one-time ridicuously low fee for distributing PCDOS with their machines. IBM did not maintain exclusive rights and Microsoft made big money on selling MSDOS to clone makers. But then of course I was a poor student at the time and wasn't in the market for a PC :-) SteveD > > I think I still have my copy of CPM :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-25 11:19 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 11:50 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 14:37 ` Steve Doiel @ 2002-05-25 16:46 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 22:57 ` Robert Dewar 2002-06-07 22:10 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Randy Brukardt 3 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw) "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote in message > I think I still have my copy of CPM :-) That reminds me of a former co-worker who was a big CP/M fan. He told me once that there was a CP/M - based Janus compiler for a small subset of Ada. Has anyone here heard of it? I'm curious about how much of the language they could do under CP/M. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-25 16:46 ` ON Topic: Ada for CP/M Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-05-25 22:57 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-26 5:57 ` Adrian Hoe 2002-05-28 16:24 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-25 22:57 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<WdPH8.6060$Np5.1189@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>... > "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote in message > > I think I still have my copy of CPM :-) > > That reminds me of a former co-worker who was a big CP/M fan. He told me > once that there was a CP/M - based Janus compiler for a small subset of Ada. > Has anyone here heard of it? I'm curious about how much of the language they > could do under CP/M. You could certainly do a full language compiler for a CP/M machine if there was a demand ... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-25 22:57 ` Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-26 5:57 ` Adrian Hoe 2002-06-07 21:56 ` Randy Brukardt 2002-05-28 16:24 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Adrian Hoe @ 2002-05-26 5:57 UTC (permalink / raw) dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) wrote in message news:<5ee5b646.0205251457.788ad9b6@posting.google.com>... > "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<WdPH8.6060$Np5.1189@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>... > > "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote in message > > > I think I still have my copy of CPM :-) > > > > That reminds me of a former co-worker who was a big CP/M fan. He told me > > once that there was a CP/M - based Janus compiler for a small subset of Ada. > > Has anyone here heard of it? I'm curious about how much of the language they > > could do under CP/M. > > > You could certainly do a full language compiler for a > CP/M machine if there was a demand ... I was once a CP/M fan. I am still having the Apple CP/M Ada compiler in 5.25" diskette. I dont' know if the diskette is still readable or not (it has been almost 20 years which I started to have the diskette in mid 1980s). I don't know what Ada compiler it is. I can still remember faintly the compiler messages: lexical analysis++++++++ semantic analysis++++++++++++ something like that. Any idea which Ada it was? -- -- Adrian Hoe -- http://adrianhoe.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-26 5:57 ` Adrian Hoe @ 2002-06-07 21:56 ` Randy Brukardt 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2002-06-07 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Adrian Hoe wrote in message <9ff447f2.0205252157.78b290ff@posting.google.com>... >dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) wrote in message news:<5ee5b646.0205251457.788ad9b6@posting.google.com>... >> "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<WdPH8.6060$Np5.1189@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>... >> > "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote in message >> > > I think I still have my copy of CPM :-) >> > >> > That reminds me of a former co-worker who was a big CP/M fan. He told me >> > once that there was a CP/M - based Janus compiler for a small subset of Ada. >> > Has anyone here heard of it? I'm curious about how much of the language they >> > could do under CP/M. >> >> >> You could certainly do a full language compiler for a >> CP/M machine if there was a demand ... > > >I was once a CP/M fan. I am still having the Apple CP/M Ada compiler >in 5.25" diskette. I dont' know if the diskette is still readable or >not (it has been almost 20 years which I started to have the diskette >in mid 1980s). I don't know what Ada compiler it is. > >I can still remember faintly the compiler messages: > >lexical analysis++++++++ >semantic analysis++++++++++++ > >something like that. Any idea which Ada it was? There were two that I know of, the Stupidsoft (sorry, old habits: Supersoft) Ada, and our Janus/Ada. Looking at the messages, you probably had the bad guys. :-) It was quite a trick to compile a useful subset of Ada on a 56K machine. OTOH, targetting that machine is not particularly difficult. For Ada 83, the Janus/Ada runtime never exceeded 12K on the 16-bit machines, Z-80 code was quite a bit more compact and also much more aminable to compression. So, I don't think that there would be any particular difficulty targetting Janus/Ada 95 to such a machine (with compiler running on Windows or Linux). You probably couldn't use every possible Ada feature in programs targetting such a machine, but the sorts of programs developed for such memory-limited systems don't do that anyway. If anyone is interested in such a target, I'd be happy to try to figure out how to read the 8" CP/M floppies that contain the source code to those versions. (Our last CP/M machine doesn't boot anymore, couldn't figure out why.) Randy Brukardt R.R. Software, Inc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-25 22:57 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-26 5:57 ` Adrian Hoe @ 2002-05-28 16:24 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 13:48 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-05-30 2:53 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-28 16:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Considering you can do a full implementation of Ada for a machine that has *no* operating system whatsoever, that isn't exactly a bold and daring claim. :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote in message news:5ee5b646.0205251457.788ad9b6@posting.google.com... > > > You could certainly do a full language compiler for a > CP/M machine if there was a demand ... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-28 16:24 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-29 13:48 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-05-29 13:17 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-05 13:09 ` [OT] VMS, was: " Simon Clubley 2002-05-30 2:53 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-05-29 13:48 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <ad0b0g$mso$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > Considering you can do a full implementation of Ada for a machine that has > *no* operating system whatsoever, that isn't exactly a bold and daring > claim. :-) There are several Ada implementations for Microsoft Windows :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-29 13:48 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-05-29 13:17 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-30 0:43 ` Darren New 2002-06-05 13:09 ` [OT] VMS, was: " Simon Clubley 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-29 13:17 UTC (permalink / raw) "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message news:11ygPOFJtduS@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article <ad0b0g$mso$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > > Considering you can do a full implementation of Ada for a machine that has > > *no* operating system whatsoever, that isn't exactly a bold and daring > > claim. :-) > > There are several Ada implementations for Microsoft Windows :-) You would be suggesting that Windows does not qualify as an Operating System? I've heard it described as a Computer Virus with a GUI Interface. :-) But in fairness, at least Windows provides lots of primitives that would help support an Ada program without having the compiler supply its own RTK. How well they work and how well they fit Ada's needs are, quite naturally, debatable. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-29 13:17 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-30 0:43 ` Darren New 2002-05-30 13:58 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Darren New @ 2002-05-30 0:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > You would be suggesting that Windows does not qualify as an Operating > System? I've heard it described as a Computer Virus with a GUI Interface. And, of course, it depends on *which* "Windows" you're talking about. While it's arguable that Win3.1 (say) might not be what folks would consider an "operating system" (altho, funny enough, nobody complained that CP/M wasn't an operating system), Win2K certainly is an operating system. -- Darren New San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand. ** http://home.san.rr.com/dnew/DNResume.html ** ** http://images.fbrtech.com/dnew/ ** My brain needs a "back" button so I can remember where I left my coffee mug. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-30 0:43 ` Darren New @ 2002-05-30 13:58 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-31 18:19 ` Jeffrey Carter 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-30 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw) I know there is a strong anti-Windows contingent out there, but I don't feel that strongly about it. When I first saw WinNT, I kind of concluded: "Wow! VMS in disguise.... Finally, Micro$oft has a *real* operating system" I promptly dumped my broken Mac laptop and bought a PC with NT. (I wouldn't own a PC until Intel finally got around all that silly segmented address space stuff by making really huge segments! The M680x0 in the Mac never presented those sorts of limitations.) Now one can stand here all day and complain about "NT-this" and "NT-that" and "Linux is better" and so on and so on, but at least NT provided all the facilities one would expect from a "real" operating system. Compared to the MS-DOS based versions of Windows and (most, at least) Macintosh operating systems - all of which I considered "toy" operating systems - you had WinNT finally looking like the kind of thing one would expect for a workstation or larger computer. There may be *better* OS's out there but at least I can take NT and its descendents seriously. And it usually seems to work fine in supporting Ada compilers, so I consider it an adequate platform for developing Ada software. (How's that for making sure to bring it back on topic? :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Darren New" <dnew@san.rr.com> wrote in message news:3CF575B0.CD59AC6C@san.rr.com... > Marin David Condic wrote: > > You would be suggesting that Windows does not qualify as an Operating > > System? I've heard it described as a Computer Virus with a GUI Interface. > > And, of course, it depends on *which* "Windows" you're talking about. While > it's arguable that Win3.1 (say) might not be what folks would consider an > "operating system" (altho, funny enough, nobody complained that CP/M wasn't > an operating system), Win2K certainly is an operating system. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-30 13:58 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-31 18:19 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-05-31 18:31 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-05-31 18:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > > When I first saw WinNT, I kind of concluded: "Wow! > VMS in disguise.... Interesting. I know more than one person whose reactions were "Wow! UNIX in disguise...". -- Jeff Carter "I unclog my nose towards you." Monty Python & the Holy Grail ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-31 18:19 ` Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-05-31 18:31 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-31 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Maybe more like Unix in drag. :-) Still, NT was developed by ex-DEC guys who had been key players in VMS, so it isn't surprising that it has a lot in common with VMS. Its been noted before that WNT is VMS++ - possibly no accident. Also, I've heard accusations here that VMS code was pirated in the process - doubt that was ever substantiated. Its not a VMS clone, but it does share lots of similar features and in my mind that started qualifying it as a "Real OS" But then none of us VMS Bigots will likely be happy with anything else until it looks and works exactly like VMS. :-) You know you're a VMS bigot when: You think case sensitivity is some ones idea of an April Fools joke You keep trying to use the EDT keypad in Word. You know why the SHOW SYSTEM display had to have the "system uptime" field increased beyond 999 days. etc. etc. etc. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Jeffrey Carter" <jrcarter@acm.org> wrote in message news:3CF7BE9A.A9B0F04@acm.org... > > Interesting. I know more than one person whose reactions were "Wow! UNIX > in disguise...". > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* [OT] VMS, was: Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-29 13:48 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-05-29 13:17 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-05 13:09 ` Simon Clubley 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Simon Clubley @ 2002-06-05 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <ad8fib$aq8$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > > But then none of us VMS Bigots will likely be happy with anything else until > it looks and works exactly like VMS. :-) > > You know you're a VMS bigot when: > > You think case sensitivity is some ones idea of an April Fools joke > > You keep trying to use the EDT keypad in Word. > If anyone knows how to do this in Word, feel free to let me know. :-) > You know why the SHOW SYSTEM display had to have the "system uptime" > field increased beyond 999 days. > > etc. etc. etc. > You can find the full list here (as well as many other places): http://axp603.gsi.de:8080/www/vms/fun/bigot.htmlx Of course, what would be fun would be an Ada version. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: ON Topic: Ada for CP/M 2002-05-28 16:24 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 13:48 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-05-30 2:53 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-30 2:53 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> wrote in message news:<ad0b0g$mso$1@nh.pace.co.uk>... > Considering you can do a full implementation of Ada for a machine that has > *no* operating system whatsoever, that isn't exactly a bold and daring > claim. :-) You miss the point. Of course CP/M is perectly adequate to support Ada from a functional view, but typical CP/M machines have VERY little memory, typically not more than 64K bytes, and often less, and it is a little daring to say you can fit a full Ada run-time in that small a space :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 11:19 ` Robert Dewar ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2002-05-25 16:46 ` ON Topic: Ada for CP/M Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-06-07 22:10 ` Randy Brukardt 3 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2002-06-07 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote in message <5ee5b646.0205250319.324e9ff8@posting.google.com>... >"Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.FrankLho@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<acmn8f$lmd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > >> In the first years of the IBM/PC, IBM and Microsoft were indeed partners. It >> was this partnership that produced MS-DOS as the standard OS for IBM's first >> personal computer. > >That's misleading. When the PC came out, it was sold without an operating >system. I remember well going into the IBM store (IBM was briefly in the >retail business) and buying a machine, and then I asked about the operating >system. I was pointed to a bin marked operating systems. I found UCSD, CPM >and MS/DOS. I bought a copy of CPM and MS/DOS, and played with both. MS/DOS >at that time was purely a microsoft product, and was not specially pushed >by IBM, although most certainly IBM had help cause it to be produced. In >practice MS/DOS won out in the market place over the other alternatives, >because for one thing it was a fraction of the price of the alternatives. > >I think I still have my copy of CPM :-) Robert's memory isn't quite right (or he came late to the PC), but it isn't far off. When the PC was originally introduced, it had three operating systems as Robert mentioned. However, two of the bins (UCSD and CP/M-86) were labeled "available soon". Everyone expected CPM to be the dominant OS. However, it wasn't available until the following spring, so almost everybody bought their PCs with PC-DOS (MS-DOS) installed. We (R.R. Software) didn't buy one at all, since we had a Seattle Computer 10 MHZ 8086 machine, which ran 86-DOS, which is what Bill Gates bought for $50K to make MS-DOS. And that machine had double-sided 8" disks, which held 1.2 Meg each, rather than the puny 160K of the PC. We did some testing on a friend's machine to insure that Janus/Ada was compatible. By the time CP/M-86 did come out, so many people were using PC-DOS (MS-DOS on clones) that it had already reached critical mass, and CP/M-86 never caught on. (Probably because it really had no advantage over MS-DOS.) When the XT came out (with the whopping 10 Megabyte hard disk), we ran out to get one. We managed to snag one of the original demo units (the box had a large label saying "Do not open until <intro date>.") That turned out to be lucky, because the IBM XTs mostly had an unreliable hard disk; but the demo units had a more expensive (for IBM) german disk that was rock solid. After the machine was no longer useful for development, we ran our BBS system on it for years; it was still working when we gave it to charity (which also was our landlord) in 1995(?). [He promptly broke it. We could never get it working again after he took it home.] Sigh. Too much unimportant information. Randy Brukardt. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Microsoft takes on history 2002-05-25 0:52 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 11:19 ` Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-25 15:41 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-25 15:41 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.FrankLho@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<acmn8f$lmd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > I think it's time to move this thread to a history of > computing NG. Well this is surely more interesting than these endless Ada advocacy threads that take place on CLA every now and then :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 18:01 ` Wes Groleau 2002-05-23 18:30 ` tmoran @ 2002-05-23 18:43 ` chris.danx 2002-05-24 2:19 ` Ted Dennison 2002-05-24 3:09 ` Adrian Hoe 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2002-05-23 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw) "Wes Groleau" <wesgroleau@despammed.com> wrote in message news:3CED2E66.DD15C13D@despammed.com... > > > > I'm curious what, if any, response ACT has to Microsoft's recent > > efforts to convince the DoD to ban Free Software. (see > > I'm interested in ACT's reaction also. > > Putting this one along with MANY other Microsoft actions > recently, my reaction is that Microsoft must be in big trouble > to be so panicky lately about Open Source. They're <you pick> themselves cos' the competition is coming in to take their business and they don't like it. Linux is getting in on the server market, so MS haven't got as many customers in that area as they'd like and it's becoming increasingly easier to use Linux, so it might hit sales in the desktop market. If they get OpenSource banned stateside, Linux will go down the lavvy pan, then MS will rule! Or atleast that's what makes sense to them. (I don't even like Linux, but the fact remains it's gaining popularity and support from all sectors) There was another article about microsoft new licensing schemes forcing schools to only use windows on all of their hardware, even macs! I attribute this to two things, one schools are run by techno-illeterates and microsoft think they're easy pickings (i can personally testify to schools and techno-illeterates; when I was at school I had to write step by step manuals for our teachers to use several very very simple software packages (hyperstack(?) based things), and they were using macs which are one of the easiest systems to use!) and two Mac now has a reasonable OS in Darwin/Mac OS X. Also there is the fact that the pc sector seems saturated, almost everyone who wants (or can afford) a pc has one, meaning a great big chunk of their marker is disappearing day by day. Looks like they're getting desparate and clutching at straws! (the idea the us goverment would want to increase costs is a complete absurdity. Why have one very expensive bomb when you can have ten cheap ones that work much the same?) Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 18:43 ` Microsoft takes on ACT chris.danx @ 2002-05-24 2:19 ` Ted Dennison 2002-05-24 3:09 ` Adrian Hoe 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-24 2:19 UTC (permalink / raw) chris.danx wrote: > There was another article about microsoft new licensing schemes forcing > schools to only use windows on all of their hardware, even macs! I > attribute this to two things, one schools are run by techno-illeterates and I'd think it more likely that they just find financially-strapped organizations like schools easier pickings for financial blackmail. In the slashdot thread about that, there was an accusation posted by an AC that Microsoft came in and shut down a head-start program he had volunteered at in a very poor area of Iowa becuase they couldn't come up with documentation proving licenses for all the software on their (donated) computers. Since it was from an anonomous account, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. But some folks believed it without question. I consider it a really bad sign that folks would even consider this to be plausable behavior out of a company. That's just despicable beyond belief. > Also there is the fact that the pc sector seems saturated, almost everyone > who wants (or can afford) a pc has one, meaning a great big chunk of their > marker is disappearing day by day. > > Looks like they're getting desparate and clutching at straws! (the idea the I had read one article in Motley Fool (I forget where, sorry) about how Microsoft has basicly been living off of funny-money for the last several years. Something about giving stock options as pay to their employees, then writing off the difference on their taxes when the stock value goes up. ...Ahhh...found the link. Here: http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemaker/2000/rulemaker000217.htm The problem with doing this kind of thing, as folks like CFS here in Tulsa a few years back, and Enron a little more publicly have shown, is that if your company's value rests primarily on transient things like its stock value, it can all go away when the wind changes direction. And when it starts to go, it goes *fast*. So when Microsoft stock starts to slip, as it has done recently, its not like your GM or GE stock slipping a bit. Things could get Bad. So anyway, what we *could* be witnessing here is desparate attempts to prevent an Enron-style progressive collapse of the company, by finding new revenue streams during a bad economy. Just a theory. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 18:43 ` Microsoft takes on ACT chris.danx 2002-05-24 2:19 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-05-24 3:09 ` Adrian Hoe 2002-05-24 12:29 ` chris.danx 2002-05-25 21:38 ` [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Michal Nowak 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Adrian Hoe @ 2002-05-24 3:09 UTC (permalink / raw) "chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<WLaH8.1180$bs1.117887@news8-gui.server.ntli.net>... > "Wes Groleau" <wesgroleau@despammed.com> wrote in message > news:3CED2E66.DD15C13D@despammed.com... > > > > > > > I'm curious what, if any, response ACT has to Microsoft's recent > > > efforts to convince the DoD to ban Free Software. (see > > > > I'm interested in ACT's reaction also. > > > > Putting this one along with MANY other Microsoft actions > > recently, my reaction is that Microsoft must be in big trouble > > to be so panicky lately about Open Source. > > They're <you pick> themselves cos' the competition is coming in to take > their business and they don't like it. Linux is getting in on the server > market, so MS haven't got as many customers in that area as they'd like and > it's becoming increasingly easier to use Linux, so it might hit sales in the > desktop market. If they get OpenSource banned stateside, Linux will go down > the lavvy pan, then MS will rule! Or atleast that's what makes sense to > them. (I don't even like Linux, but the fact remains it's gaining > popularity and support from all sectors) Try Linux! You will fall in love with it. I once tried Linux (OpenLinux 1.2) and I did not quite like it. After a while of mingling around, I started to love it. I am an advance user nowaday! If you use Microsoft, you are just one of the generous contributor to Bill's wealth! And what do you get? At least, I use Linux and I save all the money buying Microsoft's to own a PS2. OpenSource should stay. It proliferate software revolution! -- -- Adrian Hoe -- http://adrianhoe.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 3:09 ` Adrian Hoe @ 2002-05-24 12:29 ` chris.danx 2002-05-24 13:39 ` Ingo Marks 2002-05-24 14:56 ` [OT] Microsoft vs. Linux vs. Wes Groleau 2002-05-25 21:38 ` [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Michal Nowak 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2002-05-24 12:29 UTC (permalink / raw) "Adrian Hoe" <byhoe@greenlime.com> wrote in message news:9ff447f2.0205231909.40170d61@posting.google.com... > Try Linux! You will fall in love with it. I once tried Linux > (OpenLinux 1.2) and I did not quite like it. After a while of mingling > around, I started to love it. I am an advance user nowaday! I have SuSE 8.0 Linux sitting in a box, my builtin raid controller isn't supported and no one seems to be able to answer my question on whether or not the new bios patch for the mobo will allow me to take the dvd/cd and put them on the ide channels where the hdds are (I have already tried switching the RAID functionality to ATA and see if the installer could detect the hdds as they are but it couldn't, which makes me wonder if it could detect the dvd and cdrw if they were on the controller). > If you use Microsoft, you are just one of the generous contributor to > Bill's wealth! I do not need to buy anymore software from MS (except maybe age of mythology), so I will no longer contribute in a material sense. > And what do you get? At least, I use Linux and I save > all the money buying Microsoft's to own a PS2. Linux isn't quite ready for the other ppl who live here, the learning curve is still too steep, but maybe in the future I will consider it for more than developing my own OS (GNAT for NT is just too much of a pain for this, perhaps this will change with it's integration into the gcc toolchain). > OpenSource should stay. It proliferate software revolution! Unfortunately the software revolution is forgetting proper design documentation. Sure (most of) the software is designed initially but the design documents aren't always available which reduces changes to the software by other programmers to 'hacking'. To me the design is more important than the code, after all if the code is broke you can refer to the design to see exactly what it's supposed to do and it's relation to the whole system and apply a fix that won't break the design. The design specifies the intent, the code merely carries out that intent. Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 12:29 ` chris.danx @ 2002-05-24 13:39 ` Ingo Marks 2002-05-24 14:32 ` chris.danx 2002-05-24 14:56 ` [OT] Microsoft vs. Linux vs. Wes Groleau 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Ingo Marks @ 2002-05-24 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw) chris.danx wrote: > I have SuSE 8.0 Linux sitting in a box, my builtin raid controller isn't > supported and no one seems to be able to answer my question on whether or > not the new bios patch for the mobo will allow me to take the dvd/cd and > put them on the ide channels where the hdds are (I have already tried > switching the RAID functionality to ATA and see if the installer could > detect the hdds as they are but it couldn't, which makes me wonder if it > could detect the dvd and cdrw if they were on the controller). I am a SuSE Linux user for long years. In my experience it is best to wait for at least minor version 3. I tried 6.1 and worked for a long time with 6.4. Later I tried Suse 7.0, 7.1, 7.2 and was not satisfied. Only 7.3 was rock solid with good device support. So if you really want to use SuSE 8 then you should wait at least for SuSE 8.3. Regards, Ingo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 13:39 ` Ingo Marks @ 2002-05-24 14:32 ` chris.danx 2002-05-24 17:59 ` OT: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-25 15:08 ` Microsoft takes on ACT Adrian Hoe 0 siblings, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2002-05-24 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw) "Ingo Marks" <adv@region-nord.de> wrote in message news:aclfpe$kc3$03$1@news.t-online.com... > > I am a SuSE Linux user for long years. In my experience it is best to wait > for at least minor version 3. I tried 6.1 and worked for a long time with > 6.4. Later I tried Suse 7.0, 7.1, 7.2 and was not satisfied. Only 7.3 was > rock solid with good device support. Thanks, I wish i'd have known that when I bought 8.0! > So if you really want to use SuSE 8 then you should wait at least for SuSE > 8.3. Oh bugger it, where's the screwdriver??? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* OT: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-24 14:32 ` chris.danx @ 2002-05-24 17:59 ` Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-25 0:15 ` chris.danx 2002-05-25 9:36 ` OT: " Ingo Marks 2002-05-25 15:08 ` Microsoft takes on ACT Adrian Hoe 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Wilhelm Spickermann @ 2002-05-24 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw) --Am Freitag, Mai 24, 2002 15:32:24 +0100 schrieb "chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com>: > "Ingo Marks" <adv@region-nord.de> wrote in message > news:aclfpe$kc3$03$1@news.t-online.com... >> >> I am a SuSE Linux user for long years. In my experience it is >> best to wait for at least minor version 3. I tried 6.1 and >> worked for a long time with 6.4. Later I tried Suse 7.0, 7.1, >> 7.2 and was not satisfied. Only 7.3 was rock solid with good >> device support. > > Thanks, I wish i'd have known that when I bought 8.0! I have to support what Ingo said. Try to copy a 7.3. (In our local linux user group mailing list, we have a "distribution war" from time to time and SuSE 8.0 was the first one where nothing happend because all SuSE fans stayed quiet.) If things continue to go in that direction, I will change to another distri -- and I've started using SuSE before they started numbering their distris. :-( Concerning the raid controller mainboard: 1: have you tried http://www.promise.com/support/suse_eng.asp ? (I don't know anything about it, but if promise has an own linux driver for that board, it should be there.) 2: If you search the internet, search for the chip number. The guys writing device drivers have had bad experiences with names of boards, sale names etc. -- it only leads to confusion. So they prefer to talk about chip numbers. Good luck Wilhelm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-24 17:59 ` OT: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Wilhelm Spickermann @ 2002-05-25 0:15 ` chris.danx 2002-05-25 5:25 ` Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-25 9:36 ` OT: " Ingo Marks 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2002-05-25 0:15 UTC (permalink / raw) "Wilhelm Spickermann" <wilhelm.spickermann@spickermann-d.de> wrote in message news:mailman.1022263262.23190.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org... > > > --Am Freitag, Mai 24, 2002 15:32:24 +0100 schrieb "chris.danx" > <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com>: > > > "Ingo Marks" <adv@region-nord.de> wrote in message > > news:aclfpe$kc3$03$1@news.t-online.com... > >> > >> I am a SuSE Linux user for long years. In my experience it is > >> best to wait for at least minor version 3. I tried 6.1 and > >> worked for a long time with 6.4. Later I tried Suse 7.0, 7.1, > >> 7.2 and was not satisfied. Only 7.3 was rock solid with good > >> device support. > > > > Thanks, I wish i'd have known that when I bought 8.0! > > I have to support what Ingo said. Try to copy a 7.3. (In our > local linux user group mailing list, we have a "distribution > war" from time to time and SuSE 8.0 was the first one where > nothing happend because all SuSE fans stayed quiet.) If things > continue to go in that direction, I will change to another > distri -- and I've started using SuSE before they started > numbering their distris. :-( on alt.os.linux.suse many ppl seem to think 8.0 is not too good, they believe it was rushed out to be the first with KDE 3. Unfortunately no one new this until it's release and loads of ppl had pre-ordered it. > Concerning the raid controller mainboard: > > 1: have you tried http://www.promise.com/support/suse_eng.asp ? > (I don't know anything about it, but if promise has an own linux > driver for that board, it should be there.) Tried there every two weeks since 8.0 was delivered. > 2: If you search the internet, search for the chip number. The > guys writing device drivers have had bad experiences with names > of boards, sale names etc. -- it only leads to confusion. So > they prefer to talk about chip numbers. (02/03/22 1.220.1.24) Add Promise 20276 to supported IDE controllers Ah feck, you've got to be kidding me? Kernel 2.19 pre 5 has some support for this chipset :<. I was told 2.18 supported the raid chipset which is why I bought SuSE 8.0, nuttzzz. Tonight I removed two IDE cables and ditched using the raid controller and now that seems uneccessary. If only I'd known chipset numbers where the thing to go for, there wouldn't have been such a palava in here (first time actually did something to the pc). Hmm, now I'm wondering if it's possible to install SuSE with another kernel instead of the one it's got, and get the installer to work with it? Nick is a pc techie guy I know and he'll be in the area tomorrow so it'd be great to find out how to do this before then and take him up on his offer. Any suggestions? Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-25 0:15 ` chris.danx @ 2002-05-25 5:25 ` Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-25 23:45 ` chris.danx 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Wilhelm Spickermann @ 2002-05-25 5:25 UTC (permalink / raw) --Am Samstag, Mai 25, 2002 01:15:07 +0100 schrieb "chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com>: > Ah feck, you've got to be kidding me? Kernel 2.19 pre 5 has > some support for this chipset :<. I was told 2.18 supported > the raid chipset which is why I bought SuSE 8.0, nuttzzz. It may be true: a kernel x.y.z is very different to a x.y.z-SUSE kernel. They always have many additional device drivers in their kernels. So it may be just a bug as thought before -- I don't know. After installing the kernel source package, you can search it with something like: find /usr/src/linux-2.4.18.SuSE -type f -exec grep 20276 {} \; -print > Hmm, now I'm wondering if it's possible to install SuSE with > another kernel instead of the one it's got, and get the > installer to work with it? I've never tried to replace a SuSE-Kernel by a normal one and I won't try it. New ones from SuSE come up on ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/update/8.0/kernel Wilhelm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-25 5:25 ` Wilhelm Spickermann @ 2002-05-25 23:45 ` chris.danx 2002-05-26 4:57 ` OT: " Wilhelm Spickermann ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2002-05-25 23:45 UTC (permalink / raw) "Wilhelm Spickermann" <wilhelm.spickermann@spickermann-d.de> wrote in message news:mailman.1022304362.15962.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org... > > Hmm, now I'm wondering if it's possible to install SuSE with > > another kernel instead of the one it's got, and get the > > installer to work with it? > > I've never tried to replace a SuSE-Kernel by a normal one and I > won't try it. New ones from SuSE come up on > ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/update/8.0/kernel Will keep checking, thanks. Got to play with Linux today and have only had 2 problems, Terayon don't seem to have produced a suitable driver for the USB cable modem but this was anticipated (ethernet card needed) and mounting the floppy inside a directory from a user account, or atleast that's what I think it wants to do (it reported only root can do that!). It's part of a set of build instructions for serge robyns adaos package, and it probably just needs a twiddling of an privelege to do, although whether it's safe to allow that is unknown to me. Building an OS was the whole reason for getting suse 8.0, so the ease with which Serges' code could be built was a good measure as to how well building of 'Nu' would be. The build itself went nearly flawlessly, it was the install script that failed, so it looks like it'll be easier. Some of the positive points; the suse installation went very well with no problems whatsoever. (SuSE) Linux is quite impressive, all the software tested runs except one or two games (graphics were excellent on those games that did work), and lots of variety. Boot time is roughly the same or slighly longer than win2k and on first impressions they compare quite favourably with each other. Seems like it was worth ditching the raid controller after all. what is 'su'? Typing a line in for the above mentioned install script, gives a password prompt with 'su' (seems to be the root password, the user password failed and brain was off!), but with 'sh' it gives the above error. Why is that? Is 'su' an elevated 'sh'? If so that might be the problem with the install script. Sorry I know this is offtopic and I thank you all for your patience, Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-25 23:45 ` chris.danx @ 2002-05-26 4:57 ` Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-26 9:52 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-26 10:40 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Wilhelm Spickermann @ 2002-05-26 4:57 UTC (permalink / raw) --Am Sonntag, Mai 26, 2002 00:45:48 +0100 schrieb "chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com>: > what is 'su'? Typing a line in for the above mentioned > install script, gives a password prompt with 'su' (seems to be > the root password, the user password failed and brain was > off!), but with 'sh' it gives the above error. Why is that? > Is 'su' an elevated 'sh'? If so that might be the problem > with the install script. Thats correct. "su" starts a shell under a new user (and group). If the user name is not given, "root" will be used for that. Try "man su". No password will be required if root wants to become someone else. Wilhelm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-25 23:45 ` chris.danx 2002-05-26 4:57 ` OT: " Wilhelm Spickermann @ 2002-05-26 9:52 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-26 10:40 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-26 9:52 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 26 May 2002 00:45:48 +0100, chris.danx wrote: > > > what is 'su'? Typing a line in for the above mentioned install script, > gives a password prompt with 'su' (seems to be the root password, the user > password failed and brain was off!), but with 'sh' it gives the above error. > Why is that? Is 'su' an elevated 'sh'? If so that might be the problem > with the install script. On Windows 9X, ME, XP there is not such a clear distinction between root (administrator) and the user. In Unix and Linux one have a super user called root which has access to all files. You should never use this account for your normal business. I mean you must create a user called say chris and you log in as chris on your computer and run the applications you want. You must not do this logged in as root. The reason is that if you do something stupid like trying to delete /usr when you are logged in as chris you will get an Access Denied, as root it will be done and you cannot undo it. But every time you need to install, update or remove some software you need to do this as root. So to become root you type in a shell: su and then give the root password. when you have done the updating you type exit (or hit Ctrl+d) and you close the root session. http://derisilab.ucsf.edu/UCSFLinuxSecurity.html -- "Jeg tror nordmenn har glemt hvordan de tilbreder fisk. De er mest opptatt av firkantet fisk." -- Kristian Kristiansen, yrkesfisker, aftenposten.no 19/04/02 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-25 23:45 ` chris.danx 2002-05-26 4:57 ` OT: " Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-26 9:52 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-26 10:40 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: David C. Hoos, Sr. @ 2002-05-26 10:40 UTC (permalink / raw) ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada To: <comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org> Sent: May 25, 2002 6:45 PM Subject: Re: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) <snip> > what is 'su'? Typing a line in for the above mentioned install script, > gives a password prompt with 'su' (seems to be the root password, the user > password failed and brain was off!), but with 'sh' it gives the above error. > Why is that? Is 'su' an elevated 'sh'? If so that might be the problem > with the install script. As with most UNIX (or Linux) commands, you can find out what they do, and their full syntax, using the 'man" (manual) command. I.e., to find out about 'su', type 'man su' (without the quotes). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-24 17:59 ` OT: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-25 0:15 ` chris.danx @ 2002-05-25 9:36 ` Ingo Marks 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Ingo Marks @ 2002-05-25 9:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Wilhelm Spickermann wrote: > I have to support what Ingo said. Try to copy a 7.3. (In our > local linux user group mailing list, we have a "distribution > war" from time to time and SuSE 8.0 was the first one where > nothing happend because all SuSE fans stayed quiet.) If things > continue to go in that direction, I will change to another > distri -- and I've started using SuSE before they started > numbering their distris. :-( I think it is not a SuSE specific problem. I bet other distris (RedHat, Mandrake) have similar problems. SuSE provides the newest up-to-date Linux technology if you want to use it. They do a very good job and I don't make SuSE responsible for the bugs in KDE 3.0 or other software with minor number 0 (even Linux kernels, say 2.6.0). It is the same as with new car models: It is best to wait a bit until the little problems (in Germany we say "Kinderkrankheiten") are gone. > Concerning the raid controller mainboard: > > 1: have you tried http://www.promise.com/support/suse_eng.asp ? > (I don't know anything about it, but if promise has an own linux > driver for that board, it should be there.) Several months ago I wanted to use a Fasttrak 100 (IDE with software Raid 1) in a Linux box. There was no driver in the SuSE distribution, so I downloaded a beta driver from Fasttrak. It was very hard and tricky to install (because I needed a boot image with a fasttrak driver on it to install this driver :-) Ok, finally it worked. But after this experience I would recommend to use SuSE software RAID 1 in favor of Promise Software RAID 1 if you have a fast computer because it is much easier to install and easier to handle. Or use a real IDE RAID controller which you don't need any driver for. Regards, Ingo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-24 14:32 ` chris.danx 2002-05-24 17:59 ` OT: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Wilhelm Spickermann @ 2002-05-25 15:08 ` Adrian Hoe 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Adrian Hoe @ 2002-05-25 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw) "chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<%9sH8.3292$GB4.495005@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>... > "Ingo Marks" <adv@region-nord.de> wrote in message > news:aclfpe$kc3$03$1@news.t-online.com... > > > > I am a SuSE Linux user for long years. In my experience it is best to wait > > for at least minor version 3. I tried 6.1 and worked for a long time with > > 6.4. Later I tried Suse 7.0, 7.1, 7.2 and was not satisfied. Only 7.3 was > > rock solid with good device support. > > Thanks, I wish i'd have known that when I bought 8.0! > > > > So if you really want to use SuSE 8 then you should wait at least for SuSE > > 8.3. > > Oh bugger it, where's the screwdriver??? Ah... I almost had order 8.0 but fortunately I had a crying baby to attend to and then I forgot about it. Undoubtedly, that's the problem with Linux. I believe things will get better in the near future. -- -- Adrian Hoe -- http://adrianhoe.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: [OT] Microsoft vs. Linux vs. ... 2002-05-24 12:29 ` chris.danx 2002-05-24 13:39 ` Ingo Marks @ 2002-05-24 14:56 ` Wes Groleau 2002-05-25 15:25 ` Adrian Hoe 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Wes Groleau @ 2002-05-24 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw) > Linux isn't quite ready for the other ppl who live here, the learning curve > is still too steep, but maybe in the future I will consider it for more than > developing my own OS (GNAT for NT is just too much of a pain for this, > perhaps this will change with it's integration into the gcc toolchain). That was my problem. I wanted Unix, but I needed something I could make easy to use for the wife and kids without being a full-time system administrator. The solution: Mac OS 9 w/ MachTen and now Mac OS X. Unix underneath for me, easier to use than Windows for them. -- Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: [OT] Microsoft vs. Linux vs. ... 2002-05-24 14:56 ` [OT] Microsoft vs. Linux vs. Wes Groleau @ 2002-05-25 15:25 ` Adrian Hoe 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Adrian Hoe @ 2002-05-25 15:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Wes Groleau <wesgroleau@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<3CEE54B6.386CBCD5@despammed.com>... > > Linux isn't quite ready for the other ppl who live here, the learning curve > > is still too steep, but maybe in the future I will consider it for more than > > developing my own OS (GNAT for NT is just too much of a pain for this, > > perhaps this will change with it's integration into the gcc toolchain). > > That was my problem. I wanted Unix, but > I needed something I could make easy to use > for the wife and kids without being a full-time > system administrator. The solution: Mac OS 9 w/ > MachTen and now Mac OS X. Unix underneath for > me, easier to use than Windows for them. Yeap, state-of-the-art Mac OS X! I like it. If Linux has such user-friendliness, there goes Windows! -- -- Adrian Hoe -- http://adrianhoe.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-24 3:09 ` Adrian Hoe 2002-05-24 12:29 ` chris.danx @ 2002-05-25 21:38 ` Michal Nowak 2002-05-26 9:37 ` Preben Randhol 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Michal Nowak @ 2002-05-25 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2002-05-23 at 20:09 byhoe@greenlime.com wrote: >Try Linux! You will fall in love with it. I once tried Linux >(OpenLinux 1.2) and I did not quite like it. After a while of mingling >around, I started to love it. I am an advance user nowaday! Linux is becoming good option for wider part of community. It supports more and more devices and is easier to maintain. However, there are still some configuration issues, which require more computer skills and knowledge than non-cs folk has. To force my TV card work with S3 Savage 4 card I had to do some kernel tweaking (and it still is a bit unstable). There is still too much black magic for a typical user. Well, using Linux I may feel a bit like a wizard among "normal" users :-). Hmm, I like this possibility to have whole system under control, where there are no "super-clever" creators which wants to do everything for me. I'm still dual systems user (not exactly - two Linux installations + FreeBSD + Win 95), but the proportions are changing towards Linux. Two years ago I was mostly on Win, but now it is Linux. I hope to switch to Linux/BSD in nearest future. I may miss AdaGIDE, but maybe it will be possible to run it through Wine. To cheer up a bit. Most people after taking some course of using MS Windows&Co. put in their resumes point: "Skill in using a computer", where it should be "Skill in using MS Word & Excel under MS Windows". One day, when I was away, a neighbor of mine asked my Mother, if he can print something urgent on my PC. She let him in, he turned on the PC, and Linux booted up. She told me then, that after seeing all startup messages and landing in console mode he panicked a bit and resigned from his urgent printout... Mike "In the world of machines, virtual machines, dominated by software ... ... a new culture is born" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-25 21:38 ` [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Michal Nowak @ 2002-05-26 9:37 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-27 9:23 ` Michal Nowak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-26 9:37 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 25 May 2002 23:38:14 +0200, Michal Nowak wrote: > > Linux is becoming good option for wider part of community. It supports > more and more devices and is easier to maintain. However, there > are still some configuration issues, which require more computer > skills and knowledge than non-cs folk has. To force my TV card work > with S3 Savage 4 card I had to do some kernel tweaking (and it still > is a bit unstable). There is still too much black magic for a typical > user. Well, using Linux I may feel a bit like a wizard among "normal" > users :-). Hmm, I like this possibility to have whole system under The point is that the Linux developers have to figure out for themselves how a device works unless the company developing this device wants to share their documentation. Now device drivers are made for Windows by the companies producing them so installing some brand new hardware can be much easier on Windows. When speaking about the ease of installation, on seem to forget that this may not be so important. Example: my father uses Linux because of all the Windows viruses and all the problems he got using Windows. I installed Windows for him as he had no computer experience. And later I installed Linux. All he has to concern himself with is to use the computer for that he wants to do. He doesn't have to bother with the underlaying drivers etc... And he has no problem with Linux compared to Windows. Besides it is much easier for me to maintain his computer (now that he has Linux) even if I reside 1000 km away from home. Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-26 9:37 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-27 9:23 ` Michal Nowak 2002-06-11 6:30 ` Adrian Hoe 0 siblings, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Michal Nowak @ 2002-05-27 9:23 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2002-05-26 at 09:37 Preben Randhol wrote: >The point is that the Linux developers have to figure out for themselves >how a device works unless the company developing this device wants to >share their documentation. Now device drivers are made for Windows by >the companies producing them so installing some brand new hardware can >be much easier on Windows. Yes, I know that. That is real pain for Linux users. I signed a petition some months ago directed to hardware manufacturers. It was a request that they notice growing Linux community and cooperate with Linux developers to create device drivers. It was on http://www.libranet.com/petition.html but it seems it is closed now. However Polish version still exists. I hope they succeeded in collecting enough signatures to be noticed. >When speaking about the ease of installation, on seem to forget that this >may not be so important. Example: my father uses Linux because of all >the Windows viruses and all the problems he got using Windows. I >installed Windows for him as he had no computer experience. And later I >installed Linux. All he has to concern himself with is to use the >computer for that he wants to do. He doesn't have to bother with the >underlaying drivers etc... And he has no problem with Linux compared to >Windows. I do not claim that Linux is unusable for non-cs people, but there was my observation. What I saw is, if they had no "click-click-do-all-for-me -graphical-wizard", they fell lost/are too lazy(?)/want more convenience in using system. It reminds me some post we had on CLA concerning GUIs - "click-click-do-all-for-me-graphical-environment". Well... Cheers, Mike "In the world of machines, virtual machines, dominated by software ... ... a new culture is born" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) 2002-05-27 9:23 ` Michal Nowak @ 2002-06-11 6:30 ` Adrian Hoe 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Adrian Hoe @ 2002-06-11 6:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Michal Nowak wrote: > On 2002-05-26 at 09:37 Preben Randhol wrote: > > >>The point is that the Linux developers have to figure out for themselves >>how a device works unless the company developing this device wants to >>share their documentation. Now device drivers are made for Windows by >>the companies producing them so installing some brand new hardware can >>be much easier on Windows. >> > > Yes, I know that. That is real pain for Linux users. I signed a petition > some months ago directed to hardware manufacturers. It was a request that > they notice growing Linux community and cooperate with Linux developers > to create device drivers. It was on http://www.libranet.com/petition.html > but it seems it is closed now. However Polish version still exists. > I hope they succeeded in collecting enough signatures to be noticed. > > >>When speaking about the ease of installation, on seem to forget that this >>may not be so important. Example: my father uses Linux because of all >>the Windows viruses and all the problems he got using Windows. I >>installed Windows for him as he had no computer experience. And later I >>installed Linux. All he has to concern himself with is to use the >>computer for that he wants to do. He doesn't have to bother with the >>underlaying drivers etc... And he has no problem with Linux compared to >>Windows. >> > > I do not claim that Linux is unusable for non-cs people, but there was > my observation. What I saw is, if they had no "click-click-do-all-for-me > -graphical-wizard", they fell lost/are too lazy(?)/want more convenience > in using system. It reminds me some post we had on CLA concerning GUIs > - "click-click-do-all-for-me-graphical-environment". Well... > > Cheers, > Mike > > "In the world of machines, virtual machines, > dominated by software ... > ... a new culture is born" > > I believe with UnitedLinux, things will get smoother... :-) -- Remove *nospam* to email. -- Adrian Hoe -- http://adrianhoe.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 15:24 Microsoft takes on ACT Ted Dennison 2002-05-23 16:09 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-23 18:01 ` Wes Groleau @ 2002-05-23 19:54 ` sk 2002-05-23 21:14 ` Michael Bode 2002-05-25 22:41 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-24 8:08 ` Dewi Daniels 3 siblings, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: sk @ 2002-05-23 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60050-2002May22.html >... >Microsoft also said open-source software is inherently less >secure because the code is available for the world to examine >for flaws, making it possible for hackers or criminals >to exploit them. Proprietary software, the company argued, >is more secure because of its closed nature. > Yet every day, it seems, people are finding holes in the security by obscurity of "closed nature" software ... ... and there are statements in the GPL which make it clear that one is only obliged to release the source if one releases the application. Does a "smart-bomb" hitting the target constitute a release of the application ? If so, ask the recipients to mail and request a copy :-) -- ------------------------------------- -- Merge vertically for real address ------------------------------------- s n p @ t . o k i e k c c m ------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 19:54 ` Microsoft takes on ACT sk @ 2002-05-23 21:14 ` Michael Bode 2002-05-25 22:41 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Michael Bode @ 2002-05-23 21:14 UTC (permalink / raw) sk <noname@myob.com> writes: > Does a "smart-bomb" hitting the target constitute a > release of the application ? > > If so, ask the recipients to mail and request a copy :-) Why wouldn't you want to include the source with the binary in that case? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 19:54 ` Microsoft takes on ACT sk 2002-05-23 21:14 ` Michael Bode @ 2002-05-25 22:41 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-26 20:19 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-28 16:34 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-25 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw) sk <noname@myob.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1022183821.28428.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>... > Does a "smart-bomb" hitting the target constitute a > release of the application ? I know there is an implicit smiley here, but still, just to answer this, of course such delivery systems would almost never be under the GPL so this is an (entertaining) rhetorical question ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-25 22:41 ` Robert Dewar @ 2002-05-26 20:19 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-26 21:04 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-27 23:37 ` Robert I. Eachus 2002-05-28 16:34 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2002-05-26 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw) dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) writes: >> Does a "smart-bomb" hitting the target constitute a >> release of the application ? > > I know there is an implicit smiley here, but still, just > to answer this, of course such delivery systems would almost never be > under the GPL so this is an (entertaining) > rhetorical question But they might contain technology which cannot otherwise legally exported from the US: "A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by the launching of such vehicle, be considered export for the purposes of this subchapter." (ITAR, 120.17) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-26 20:19 ` Florian Weimer @ 2002-05-26 21:04 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-27 6:46 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-27 6:46 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-27 23:37 ` Robert I. Eachus 1 sibling, 2 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-26 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 26 May 2002 22:19:04 +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: > > But they might contain technology which cannot otherwise legally > exported from the US: "A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by the > launching of such vehicle, be considered export for the purposes of > this subchapter." (ITAR, 120.17) So one can export some payload through the ISS? ;-) Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-26 21:04 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-27 6:46 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-27 6:46 ` Florian Weimer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2002-05-27 6:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> writes: > On Sun, 26 May 2002 22:19:04 +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: >> >> But they might contain technology which cannot otherwise legally >> exported from the US: "A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by the >> launching of such vehicle, be considered export for the purposes of >> this subchapter." (ITAR, 120.17) > > So one can export some payload through the ISS? ;-) Probably, but there are other restrictions which can prevent American citizens from distributing the information legally from there. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-26 21:04 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-27 6:46 ` Florian Weimer @ 2002-05-27 6:46 ` Florian Weimer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2002-05-27 6:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> writes: > On Sun, 26 May 2002 22:19:04 +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: >> >> But they might contain technology which cannot otherwise legally >> exported from the US: "A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by the >> launching of such vehicle, be considered export for the purposes of >> this subchapter." (ITAR, 120.17) > > So one can export some payload through the ISS? ;-) Probably, but there are other restrictions which can prevent American citizens from disseminating the information legally from there. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-26 20:19 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-26 21:04 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-27 23:37 ` Robert I. Eachus 2002-05-28 9:30 ` Preben Randhol 1 sibling, 1 reply; 96+ messages in thread From: Robert I. Eachus @ 2002-05-27 23:37 UTC (permalink / raw) dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) writes: > I know there is an implicit smiley here, but still, just > to answer this, of course such delivery systems would almost never be > under the GPL so this is an (entertaining) > rhetorical question Florian Weimer wrote: > But they might contain technology which cannot otherwise legally > exported from the US: "A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by the > launching of such vehicle, be considered export for the purposes of > this subchapter." (ITAR, 120.17) Gee, this gets very entertaining. So if some Space Shuttle flight carries encryption software to the International Space Station, that is explicitly not export. If an non-US Cosmonaut returns to Russia with that software, is it already outside of ITAR rules? I think so. Just don't be the astronaut that hands the software to the cosmonaut. That could lead to the sort of good legal case that results in bad law. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-27 23:37 ` Robert I. Eachus @ 2002-05-28 9:30 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-05-28 9:30 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 27 May 2002 23:37:08 GMT, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Gee, this gets very entertaining. So if some Space Shuttle flight > carries encryption software to the International Space Station, that is > explicitly not export. If an non-US Cosmonaut returns to Russia with > that software, is it already outside of ITAR rules? I think so. Just > don't be the astronaut that hands the software to the cosmonaut. That > could lead to the sort of good legal case that results in bad law. > Whose law apply on the ISS? Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-25 22:41 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-26 20:19 ` Florian Weimer @ 2002-05-28 16:34 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-05-28 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw) It could actually be an important question. Suppose there is GPL'ed code in a consumer electronic device? Does the GPL require delivery of the source code along with the device? Does it simply require that it be obtainable in some manner should the consumer want it? Or would you not have to deliver it at all? The answer to the "Smart Bomb" side is "Well, the folks who accept delivery of it are free to come pick up the source code if they want it..." :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote in message news:5ee5b646.0205251441.2e9489fb@posting.google.com... > sk <noname@myob.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1022183821.28428.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>... > > > Does a "smart-bomb" hitting the target constitute a > > release of the application ? > > I know there is an implicit smiley here, but still, just > to answer this, of course such delivery systems would almost never be > under the GPL so this is an (entertaining) > rhetorical question ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
* Re: Microsoft takes on ACT 2002-05-23 15:24 Microsoft takes on ACT Ted Dennison ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2002-05-23 19:54 ` Microsoft takes on ACT sk @ 2002-05-24 8:08 ` Dewi Daniels 3 siblings, 0 replies; 96+ messages in thread From: Dewi Daniels @ 2002-05-24 8:08 UTC (permalink / raw) I'm sure Robert Dewar will be surprised to learn that ACT is a "cancer" and un-American. GNAT customers will be even more surprised to learn that GNAT is insecure and bug-ridden. I'd never have known any of this unless Microsoft had pointed it out to me :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 96+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-06-11 6:30 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 96+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-05-23 15:24 Microsoft takes on ACT Ted Dennison 2002-05-23 16:09 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 13:31 ` Ted Dennison 2002-05-24 14:05 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 14:26 ` Ted Dennison 2002-05-28 15:42 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 14:52 ` Wes Groleau 2002-05-24 20:13 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-05-23 18:01 ` Wes Groleau 2002-05-23 18:30 ` tmoran 2002-05-23 21:21 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 14:02 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 14:31 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 5:48 ` OT: " tmoran 2002-05-28 15:50 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 7:58 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 18:45 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-24 19:05 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-24 19:51 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-25 8:12 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 10:31 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 12:16 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 15:40 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 17:08 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-06-07 22:14 ` Randy Brukardt 2002-05-25 20:09 ` Robert C. Leif 2002-05-24 19:57 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-24 20:35 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 0:41 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-28 16:14 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 16:18 ` Stephen Leake 2002-05-29 17:37 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 21:32 ` Dan Andreatta 2002-05-30 6:35 ` Robert C. Leif 2002-05-30 14:12 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-31 5:38 ` XML & Ada was " Robert C. Leif 2002-05-30 13:45 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-30 15:11 ` Stephen Leake 2002-05-29 20:34 ` John Doe 2002-05-24 20:54 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-05-24 20:26 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-28 16:20 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 19:34 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 20:29 ` OT: " David Marceau 2002-05-24 20:42 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-25 0:52 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 11:19 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-25 11:50 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 14:37 ` Steve Doiel 2002-05-25 16:46 ` ON Topic: Ada for CP/M Frank J. Lhota 2002-05-25 22:57 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-26 5:57 ` Adrian Hoe 2002-06-07 21:56 ` Randy Brukardt 2002-05-28 16:24 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-29 13:48 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-05-29 13:17 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-30 0:43 ` Darren New 2002-05-30 13:58 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-31 18:19 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-05-31 18:31 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-05 13:09 ` [OT] VMS, was: " Simon Clubley 2002-05-30 2:53 ` Robert Dewar 2002-06-07 22:10 ` OT: Microsoft takes on history Randy Brukardt 2002-05-25 15:41 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-23 18:43 ` Microsoft takes on ACT chris.danx 2002-05-24 2:19 ` Ted Dennison 2002-05-24 3:09 ` Adrian Hoe 2002-05-24 12:29 ` chris.danx 2002-05-24 13:39 ` Ingo Marks 2002-05-24 14:32 ` chris.danx 2002-05-24 17:59 ` OT: SuSE, Raid (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-25 0:15 ` chris.danx 2002-05-25 5:25 ` Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-25 23:45 ` chris.danx 2002-05-26 4:57 ` OT: " Wilhelm Spickermann 2002-05-26 9:52 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-26 10:40 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2002-05-25 9:36 ` OT: " Ingo Marks 2002-05-25 15:08 ` Microsoft takes on ACT Adrian Hoe 2002-05-24 14:56 ` [OT] Microsoft vs. Linux vs. Wes Groleau 2002-05-25 15:25 ` Adrian Hoe 2002-05-25 21:38 ` [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT) Michal Nowak 2002-05-26 9:37 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-27 9:23 ` Michal Nowak 2002-06-11 6:30 ` Adrian Hoe 2002-05-23 19:54 ` Microsoft takes on ACT sk 2002-05-23 21:14 ` Michael Bode 2002-05-25 22:41 ` Robert Dewar 2002-05-26 20:19 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-26 21:04 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-27 6:46 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-27 6:46 ` Florian Weimer 2002-05-27 23:37 ` Robert I. Eachus 2002-05-28 9:30 ` Preben Randhol 2002-05-28 16:34 ` Marin David Condic 2002-05-24 8:08 ` Dewi Daniels
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