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From: "Nick Roberts" <nickroberts@adaos.worldonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A case where Ada defaults to unsafe?
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:27:07 -0000
Date: 2002-01-08T23:27:07+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <a1g3kt$q2ehl$1@ID-25716.news.dfncis.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: x7vn0ztysj6.fsf@smaug.pushface.org

"Simon Wright" <simon@pushface.org> wrote in message
news:x7vn0ztysj6.fsf@smaug.pushface.org...

> I find it quite hard to imagine this scenario, I must say.
>
> We have a safety-related system where it is important that the
> extinguisher is set off as soon as possible and activating the gearbox
> alert takes sufficiently long that it can delay the extinguisher
> activation beyond tolerance[1]. And we are allowing a programmer to
> change this code without any process to ensure that the safety
> properties of the system aren't compromised?

You are probably quite right! This is a failure of my example, rather than
of the point it was intended to illustrate. For many kinds of less
safety-critical Ada software such an elaborate software process is not
warranted, and my argument would apply better.

> [1] If I'm wrong about why you think your example causes a problem,
> that (to my mind) reinforces the point that making subtle deductions
> about the intent of the designer from details of the implementation is
> a big mistake.

It does reinforce the point. You are wrong (you might have been right if the
changed version were the original and vice versa). The problem I was
assuming the original version might be percieved as suffering from was that,
in accordance with the principle 'make indications code precede actions',
the action code Activate_Extinguisher(...) might get stuck (if it has a
bug), and dangerously delay the indication code Display.Activate(...). This
idea does depend on the assumption that the indicator code (having much less
to do) is much less likely to have a bug that would cause it to get stuck.

In reality, one might well use ATC time-outs to protect vital code like this
from being baulked. Furthermore, I suspect indicator code would in reality
be very separate from emergency actions code (different tasks, or probably
different devices).

Perhaps I would have done better to present the example thus:


Original code:


   if A and B then -- L1
      P;
   end if;
   if B then -- L2
      Q;
   end if;


Supposing a programmer, for whatever reasons, would like to make the
following improvement:


   if B then -- L2
      Q;
   end if;
   if A and B then -- L1
      P;
   end if;


Based on the simple deduction that since the call to B could be made before
the call to A in line L1, she can assume that A does not need to be called
before B, and that it is therefore
safe to move the call the B in line L2 to precede the call to A in line L1.

If line L1 had contained "and then" instead of "and", she would not have
been able to make this deduction, and may have felt unable to make the
improvement to the code.

--
Best wishes,
Nick Roberts






  reply	other threads:[~2002-01-08 23:27 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 127+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2002-01-03 20:29 A case where Ada defaults to unsafe? Hyman Rosen
2002-01-03 20:38 ` Darren New
2002-01-03 21:36   ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-04 14:29     ` Wes Groleau
2002-01-03 21:27 ` James Rogers
2002-01-03 21:32 ` Frank J. Lhota
2002-01-03 21:51   ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-03 22:22     ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-03 23:07       ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-03 23:38         ` Nick Williams
2002-01-04  0:15         ` Florian Weimer
2002-01-04  7:40         ` Preben Randhol
2002-01-04 14:39         ` Wes Groleau
2002-01-04 15:16         ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04  3:35       ` Eric Merritt
2002-01-04 14:39         ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-04 14:27     ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-04 15:39       ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-01-04 15:57       ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04 16:05       ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-10 21:22         ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-11  9:14           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2002-01-04 16:19       ` Brian Rogoff
2002-01-04 16:31         ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-08 20:55         ` Mark Lundquist
2002-01-16  0:14           ` Matthew Heaney
2002-01-16 20:19             ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-10 21:29         ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-11  9:25           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2002-01-19  0:35           ` Brian Rogoff
2002-01-19 14:15             ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-19 23:10               ` Brian Rogoff
2002-01-04 16:29     ` Robert Dewar
2002-01-04 17:32       ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-04 18:50         ` Matthew Heaney
2002-01-04 18:56           ` Darren New
2002-01-04 19:10           ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-04 20:08             ` Matthew Heaney
2002-01-04 20:14               ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04 20:20               ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-04 21:16                 ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-01-04 21:33                 ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-07 15:39                   ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-07 16:06                     ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-07 16:50                     ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-01-07 17:18                       ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-07 17:26                         ` Pat Rogers
2002-01-07 18:12                           ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-07 18:40                             ` FGD
2002-01-07 20:04                             ` Pat Rogers
2002-01-05  0:08             ` Nick Roberts
2002-01-05 10:57               ` Simon Wright
2002-01-08 23:27                 ` Nick Roberts [this message]
2002-01-09  9:58                   ` Stuart Palin
2002-01-09 11:11                     ` Nick Roberts
2002-01-10 20:32                     ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-11  9:45                       ` Stuart Palin
2002-01-11 13:32                         ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-11 20:26                           ` Literate Programming [was: A case where ...] Nick Roberts
2002-01-12 16:37                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2002-01-13 14:46                               ` Nick Roberts
2002-01-14 14:17                             ` Eric Merritt
2002-01-14 23:20                               ` Nick Roberts
2002-01-15 18:54                                 ` Eric Merritt
2002-01-14 14:34                             ` Stephen Leake
2002-01-14 13:14                           ` A case where Ada defaults to unsafe? Stuart Palin
2002-01-14 14:38                             ` Preben Randhol
2002-01-16  6:00                             ` Simon Wright
2002-01-17  3:04                               ` David Starner
2002-01-17 15:08                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2002-01-17 20:25                                   ` Simon Wright
2002-01-17  9:56                               ` Stuart Palin
     [not found]                           ` <3 <3C469FE6.B2C67ED6@baesystems.com>
2002-01-17 20:32                             ` Simon Wright
2002-01-14 14:35                         ` Preben Randhol
2002-01-14 16:36                         ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-12 12:27                   ` Simon Wright
2002-01-05  0:32         ` Robert Dewar
2002-01-14 16:09     ` Matthieu Moy
2002-01-20  8:59       ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-20 19:13         ` Jim Rogers
2002-01-20 21:19           ` Ray Blaak
2002-01-03 22:07 ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04 17:12   ` Preben Randhol
2002-01-04 17:21     ` Jean-Marc Bourguet
2002-01-04 18:54     ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04  3:17 ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-01-04  8:27 ` Thierry Lelegard
2002-01-04  8:39   ` tmoran
2002-01-04  9:03     ` Thierry Lelegard
2002-01-04 14:43       ` Wes Groleau
2002-01-04 15:45       ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04 16:37         ` Wes Groleau
2002-01-04 16:56           ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04 11:51   ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-01-04 12:41   ` M. A. Alves
2002-01-04 15:42   ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04 17:16     ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-04 19:12       ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-04 23:36   ` Matthew Woodcraft
2002-01-05 15:00 ` Steve Doiel
2002-01-10 20:49   ` Robert A Duff
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2002-01-03 23:18 Gautier Write-only-address
2002-01-03 23:26 Gautier Write-only-address
2002-01-03 23:54 ` Larry Hazel
2002-01-04 14:33   ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-05 12:47 Gautier Write-only-address
2002-01-07 16:24 ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-07 18:17   ` FGD
2002-01-07 18:21     ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-07 20:26       ` Matthew Woodcraft
2002-01-07 21:16         ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-13  8:23           ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-13  9:06             ` Preben Randhol
2002-01-13 10:41             ` Larry Kilgallen
2002-01-14  5:47               ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-14 12:41               ` Georg Bauhaus
2002-01-13 18:21             ` Michal Nowak
2002-01-14  1:29               ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-14 14:36                 ` Ted Dennison
2002-01-14 22:43                 ` Michal Nowak
2002-01-10 20:47         ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-10 23:37           ` Preben Randhol
2002-01-11  1:31             ` Robert A Duff
2002-01-11 20:32               ` Nick Roberts
2002-01-11 16:47           ` Hyman Rosen
2002-01-07 16:45 Gautier Write-only-address
2002-01-07 19:33 ` Ted Dennison
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