Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Is there a texinfo version of the Ada 2005 Reference Manual?  I have
it on paper (courtesy of Ada-Europe) but I'd like to be able to search
it from within Emacs :)

If no such version exists, is anyone working on one, or considering
working on one?

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Randy Brukardt]

"Ludovic Brenta" <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote in message
news:87sldpo83w.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org...
> Is there a texinfo version of the Ada 2005 Reference Manual?  I have
> it on paper (courtesy of Ada-Europe) but I'd like to be able to search
> it from within Emacs :)
>
> If no such version exists, is anyone working on one, or considering
> working on one?

Stephen Leake did the module for converting the RM source to Texinfo as an
add-in the processing program for the RM+Corrigendum version. I didn't try
to maintain that module while working on Ada 2005, because I don't know
anything about Texinfo. I did talk to Stephen about it at one point, and we
agreed it would be best to wait until the RM was finished. Of course that
has happened; I don't know if he is still planning to update his Texinfo
module.

In the mean time, you'll have to live with the HTML version and its search
engine. I just leave a browser page open to it at all times (saves reloading
it repeatedly).

                                 Randy.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Robert A Duff]

"Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:

> "Ludovic Brenta" <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote in message
> news:87sldpo83w.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org...
>> Is there a texinfo version of the Ada 2005 Reference Manual?  I have
>> it on paper (courtesy of Ada-Europe) but I'd like to be able to search
>> it from within Emacs :)
>>
>> If no such version exists, is anyone working on one, or considering
>> working on one?
>
> Stephen Leake did the module for converting the RM source to Texinfo as an
> add-in the processing program for the RM+Corrigendum version. I didn't try
> to maintain that module while working on Ada 2005, because I don't know
> anything about Texinfo. I did talk to Stephen about it at one point, and we
> agreed it would be best to wait until the RM was finished. Of course that
> has happened; I don't know if he is still planning to update his Texinfo
> module.
>
> In the mean time, you'll have to live with the HTML version and its search
> engine. I just leave a browser page open to it at all times (saves reloading
> it repeatedly).

Why not use the plain text version?  I use that to search within emacs.

- Bob

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Robert A Duff writes:
> Randy Brukardt writes:
>
>> Ludovic Brenta wrote in message
>> news:87sldpo83w.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org...
>>> Is there a texinfo version of the Ada 2005 Reference Manual?  I have
>>> it on paper (courtesy of Ada-Europe) but I'd like to be able to search
>>> it from within Emacs :)
>>>
>>> If no such version exists, is anyone working on one, or considering
>>> working on one?
>>
>> Stephen Leake did the module for converting the RM source to Texinfo as an
>> add-in the processing program for the RM+Corrigendum version. I didn't try
>> to maintain that module while working on Ada 2005, because I don't know
>> anything about Texinfo. I did talk to Stephen about it at one point, and we
>> agreed it would be best to wait until the RM was finished. Of course that
>> has happened; I don't know if he is still planning to update his Texinfo
>> module.
>>
>> In the mean time, you'll have to live with the HTML version and its search
>> engine. I just leave a browser page open to it at all times (saves reloading
>> it repeatedly).

Unless I'm mistaken, the search engine requires the www.adaic.com
server, so cannot work off-line.  This is a no go...

> Why not use the plain text version?  I use that to search within emacs.

Yes, that's a stop-gap measure but the Info version features
hyperlinks. Also, I would really like to update the
ada-reference-manual package in Debian.  This package currently
provides the ARM95 with TC1 in Info, HTML, and plain text, and the
AARM in HTML.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Randy Brukardt]

"Ludovic Brenta" <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote in message
news:87ododnetn.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org...
> >> In the mean time, you'll have to live with the HTML version and its
search
> >> engine. I just leave a browser page open to it at all times (saves
reloading
> >> it repeatedly).
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, the search engine requires the www.adaic.com
> server, so cannot work off-line.  This is a no go...

That's true, but I didn't know anyone worked off-line anymore.

I've toyed with making a search program using the indexes for the search
engine (it's all Ada code after all), but since I only know how to do that
in Windows, I didn't think it was worth the effort. (There was such a
program that was used for testing the search engine in the early going, but
it is clunky to use the results, as you get a bunch of URLs which you have
to manually paste into your browser. I know how to fix that on Windows, I'm
not aware of any similar capabilities on Linux.)

> > Why not use the plain text version?  I use that to search within emacs.
>
> Yes, that's a stop-gap measure but the Info version features
> hyperlinks. Also, I would really like to update the
> ada-reference-manual package in Debian.  This package currently
> provides the ARM95 with TC1 in Info, HTML, and plain text, and the
> AARM in HTML.

I should add that I'll be happy to assist anyone that wants to update the
TexInfo module. I don't think it would be that hard, as Stephen has already
done much of the heavy lifting.

                                     Randy.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Stephen Leake]

"Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:

> "Ludovic Brenta" <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote in message
> news:87sldpo83w.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org...
>> Is there a texinfo version of the Ada 2005 Reference Manual?  I have
>> it on paper (courtesy of Ada-Europe) but I'd like to be able to search
>> it from within Emacs :)
>>
>> If no such version exists, is anyone working on one, or considering
>> working on one?
>
> Stephen Leake did the module for converting the RM source to Texinfo as an
> add-in the processing program for the RM+Corrigendum version. I didn't try
> to maintain that module while working on Ada 2005, because I don't know
> anything about Texinfo. I did talk to Stephen about it at one point, and we
> agreed it would be best to wait until the RM was finished. Of course that
> has happened; I don't know if he is still planning to update his Texinfo
> module.

Actually, I was waiting for an Official Announcement that it was
Finished :). I guess this counts. So I could start working on it now.
My real job is easing up, so I even have time :).

Last time around, I got the ARM sources from the CVS web viewer. Is
that still there? Let's take this off-line for more discussion.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Stephen Leake]

Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> So I could start working on it now.
> My real job is easing up, so I even have time :).

I found the sources, at http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html

I've downloaded them, and got an initial compile. Running it on the
ARM sources dies with an error in my info code. There are several new
dispatching functions I need to implement, so it will be a while. But
I'll work on it.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Stephen Leake writes:
> Stephen Leake writes:
>
>> So I could start working on it now.
>> My real job is easing up, so I even have time :).
>
> I found the sources, at http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html
>
> I've downloaded them, and got an initial compile. Running it on the
> ARM sources dies with an error in my info code. There are several new
> dispatching functions I need to implement, so it will be a while. But
> I'll work on it.

Thanks!  Do you keep your sources public somewhere?

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Robert A Duff]

Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
>> So I could start working on it now.
>> My real job is easing up, so I even have time :).
>
> I found the sources, at http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html
>
> I've downloaded them, and got an initial compile. Running it on the
> ARM sources dies with an error in my info code. There are several new
> dispatching functions I need to implement, so it will be a while. But
> I'll work on it.

Thank you!  That's a great service to the Ada community.

- Bob

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

Randy Brukardt a �crit :
>> Unless I'm mistaken, the search engine requires the www.adaic.com
>> server, so cannot work off-line.  This is a no go...
> 
> That's true, but I didn't know anyone worked off-line anymore.
> 
Never work in a train, airplane, even public transportation?

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
            J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Stephen Leake]

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:

> Stephen Leake writes:
>> Stephen Leake writes:
>>
>>> So I could start working on it now.
>>> My real job is easing up, so I even have time :).
>>
>> I found the sources, at http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html
>>
>> I've downloaded them, and got an initial compile. Running it on the
>> ARM sources dies with an error in my info code. There are several new
>> dispatching functions I need to implement, so it will be a while. But
>> I'll work on it.
>
> Thanks!  Do you keep your sources public somewhere?

Randy's source, for both the RM itself, and the Ada code that
processes, is available at the above website. The RM source is in a
zip file, the Ada via a CVS web interface. The Ada code currently does
not include support for info output. The Ada code has changed
significantly since the Ada95 manual was released, and Randy (rightly)
did not keep the info producing files current.

I'm updating the two Ada files to produce Texinfo output, which is
then further processed by makeinfo to produce the final info file.
I'll post the resulting info file on my website, and I assume Randy
will also post it on AdaIC, as he did for Ada95.

I'll also post the Ada files that produce the Texinfo. But they are
not there at the moment.

If you are offering to help in this work, we could use email, or I
could post intermediate versions.

Mostly I will need help in reading the final info result, to make sure
I haven't gotten something badly wrong.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Stephen Leake]

Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
>> Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>>
>>> So I could start working on it now.
>>> My real job is easing up, so I even have time :).
>>
>> I found the sources, at http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html
>>
>> I've downloaded them, and got an initial compile. Running it on the
>> ARM sources dies with an error in my info code. There are several new
>> dispatching functions I need to implement, so it will be a while. But
>> I'll work on it.
>
> Thank you!  That's a great service to the Ada community.

You're welcome. It's nice to be appreciated :).

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

On Feb 5, 1:54 pm, Stephen Leake wrote:
> Randy's source, for both the RM itself, and the Ada code that
> processes, is available at the above website. The RM source is in a
> zip file, the Ada via a CVS web interface.

Actually the source files are also on http://www.ada-auth.org/cgi-bin/
cvsweb.cgi/

Randy, is there any chance you'd make a CVS pserver available, to
complement the web interface?

> The Ada code currently does
> not include support for info output. The Ada code has changed
> significantly since the Ada95 manual was released, and Randy (rightly)
> did not keep the info producing files current.
>
> I'm updating the two Ada files to produce Texinfo output, which is
> then further processed by makeinfo to produce the final info file.
> I'll post the resulting info file on my website, and I assume Randy
> will also post it on AdaIC, as he did for Ada95.

Did he? I don't see these files. Maybe I've overlooked them.

> I'll also post the Ada files that produce the Texinfo. But they are
> not there at the moment.

Fair enough.

> If you are offering to help in this work, we could use email, or I
> could post intermediate versions.

It would be better if Randy granted you write access to the CVS
repository. Randy, what do you think?

> Mostly I will need help in reading the final info result, to make sure
> I haven't gotten something badly wrong.

OK, I'll help with that. Also, if Randy allows, it would be nice to
put the final texinfo and info files in the CVS server, too.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

On Feb 5, 1:55 pm, Stephen Leake <stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org>
wrote:
> Robert A Duff <bobd...@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:
> > Thank you!  That's a great service to the Ada community.
>
> You're welcome. It's nice to be appreciated :).

I'd like to second Bob's kudos, not only for myself who uses the info
version of the ARM almost daily, but also on behalf of all users of
Debian who get it as part of the ada-reference-manual package (I'm not
the maintainer of that package; Florian Weimer deserves the credit for
that).

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Georg Bauhaus]

On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 05:16 -0800, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
> On Feb 5, 1:55 pm, Stephen Leake <stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org>
> wrote:
> > Robert A Duff <bobd...@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:
> > > Thank you!  That's a great service to the Ada community.
> >
> > You're welcome. It's nice to be appreciated :).
> 
> I'd like to second Bob's kudos, not only for myself who uses the info
> version of the ARM almost daily, but also on behalf of all users of
> Debian who get it as part of the ada-reference-manual package (I'm not
> the maintainer of that package; Florian Weimer deserves the credit for
> that).

Thanks on behalf of the users of Ubuntu GNU/Linux, too,
who also use the nice Debian packages.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Randy Brukardt]

"Stephen Leake" <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> wrote in message
news:u3b5ncbo5.fsf@stephe-leake.org...
...
> > Stephen Leake did the module for converting the RM source to Texinfo as
an
> > add-in the processing program for the RM+Corrigendum version. I didn't
try
> > to maintain that module while working on Ada 2005, because I don't know
> > anything about Texinfo. I did talk to Stephen about it at one point, and
we
> > agreed it would be best to wait until the RM was finished. Of course
that
> > has happened; I don't know if he is still planning to update his Texinfo
> > module.
>
> Actually, I was waiting for an Official Announcement that it was
> Finished :). I guess this counts. So I could start working on it now.
> My real job is easing up, so I even have time :).

It's been done for a number of months. I guess I should have dropped you a
line (I was just relieved to be done with it...)

> Last time around, I got the ARM sources from the CVS web viewer. Is
> that still there? Let's take this off-line for more discussion.

Yes, it is still there and has been updated. And further discussion can be
taken off-line.

                      Randy.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Randy Brukardt]

"Ludovic Brenta" <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote in message
news:1170681175.011450.167450@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
...
> It would be better if Randy granted you write access to the CVS
> repository. Randy, what do you think?

That probably wouldn't be a good idea, for a number of reasons. The obvious
one is that the current Perl scripts only support read access (adding
something else would be, umm, interesting). But the main one is that the
primary purpose of that repository is managing the ACATS. I need to keep
very tight control over that (can't have tests appearing there or getting
modified without tracking them and announcing the changes with careful
version control). That's true for the RM source, too, don't want any
surprise modifications to it, either.

                             Randy.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Randy Brukardt]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 922 bytes --]

"Jean-Pierre Rosen" <rosen@adalog.fr> wrote in message
news:68s6qe.3mt.ln@hunter.axlog.fr...
> Randy Brukardt a �crit :
> >> Unless I'm mistaken, the search engine requires the www.adaic.com
> >> server, so cannot work off-line.  This is a no go...
> >
> > That's true, but I didn't know anyone worked off-line anymore.
> >
> Never work in a train, airplane, even public transportation?

Almost never; I use travel time to relax as travel is stressful enough as it
is. (And I've never catch up on reading magazines if I didn't do it on
airplanes.)

The last time I tried that was on the train from York back to London
(because it had the cheapest Internet connection I found in the UK) -- but
the bouncing around in the cramped surroundings made it hard to accomplish
(even type) anything.

And I think it is best to leave work at work, else I would probably do
nothing else.

                                Randy.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

On Feb 6, 1:42 am, "Randy Brukardt" <r...@rrsoftware.com> wrote:
> "Ludovic Brenta" <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote in message
>
> news:1170681175.011450.167450@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ...
>
> > It would be better if Randy granted you write access to the CVS
> > repository. Randy, what do you think?
>
> That probably wouldn't be a good idea, for a number of reasons. The obvious
> one is that the current Perl scripts only support read access (adding
> something else would be, umm, interesting). But the main one is that the
> primary purpose of that repository is managing the ACATS. I need to keep
> very tight control over that (can't have tests appearing there or getting
> modified without tracking them and announcing the changes with careful
> version control). That's true for the RM source, too, don't want any
> surprise modifications to it, either.

Sounds reasonable.

In that case, Stephe, you can host your scripts on Ada-France's
monotone server if you like. Anything is better than email, IMHO :) If
you'd like that, drop me a line.

PS. Monotone has a nice feature called "trust". You can set up hooks
that will filter revisions based on who committed them (or other
arbitrary criteria), and make them invisible to "update" and other
commands if you don't trust these committers. A trusted committer can
then "approve" a revision to make it visible. What's nice about it is
that the "trust" feature is outside the database, and can be set up
differently in each working copy; the database always contains all
revisions, and each user can choose which revisions to trust.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Stephen Leake]

"Ludovic Brenta" <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:

> In that case, Stephe, you can host your scripts on Ada-France's
> monotone server if you like. Anything is better than email, IMHO :) 

In general, I agree that a real CM system is better than email. But
that's only if there is a requirement for sharing files in the first
place. I'm the only one working on these files at the moment. When I'm
done, I'll publish them, and you can copy them into the Debian
distribution.

They should _not_ need maintenance after that, but if they do, we'll
deal with it then. Again, it's only two files!

> PS. Monotone has a nice feature called "trust". You can set up hooks
> that will filter revisions based on who committed them (or other
> arbitrary criteria), and make them invisible to "update" and other
> commands if you don't trust these committers. A trusted committer can
> then "approve" a revision to make it visible. What's nice about it is
> that the "trust" feature is outside the database, and can be set up
> differently in each working copy; the database always contains all
> revisions, and each user can choose which revisions to trust.

I've finally decided I need to use a distributed CM system at work
(I've been using CVS). I'm looking into using 'git', mostly because
there is a Cygwin port for it, and the Linux kernel developers use it,
so I think it is well-supported. For a similar purpose (trusted vs
untrusted committers), they recommend using branches. Apparently it is
easy in git to synchronize two branches periodically.

That seems more straight-forward to me than the monotone trust
mechanism. But I'd have to actually use both on a real project to be
sure. Of course, I don't have the time for that :(.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Stephen Leake writes:
> I've finally decided I need to use a distributed CM system at work
> (I've been using CVS). I'm looking into using 'git', mostly because
> there is a Cygwin port for it, and the Linux kernel developers use
> it, so I think it is well-supported.

Yes, and X.org also uses it for the same reasons.

> For a similar purpose (trusted vs untrusted committers), they
> recommend using branches. Apparently it is easy in git to
> synchronize two branches periodically.

Yes.  All the new distributed VCSs handle and keep rack of merges
properly, so repeated merges are usually not a problem.  GIT also
allows you to crypto-sign revisions, but that's optional whereas in
Monotone it is mandatory.  How can you trust unsigned revisions?  The
only way is to review them manually.  How can you ascertain their
origin, if someone challenges your copyright?  You can't.

My other gripe with GIT is that it requires a new repository for each
working copy.

On the other hand, I like its append-only storage mechanism where you
can pack a repository on a CD-ROM and "append" to it in your working
copy.

Perhaps the biggest advantage GIT has over Monotone is its ability to
serve repositories from dumb HTTP/scp servers.

All in all I think that GIT is pretty good, but Monotone is even
better.  I even wrote a paper about this:

http://www.ada-france.org/debian/distributed-version-control-systems.html

> That seems more straight-forward to me than the monotone trust
> mechanism.

I'm not sure how straightforward that is; I think this model is
fundamentally flawed.  In a distributed VCS, anyone can commit to any
branch they please, since they control their own repositories.
Therefore, you don't trust "branches" but "revisions".

So, in GIT, you'd have to carefully merge from a published but
untrusted branch (i.e. one containing untrusted revisions) to your
unpublished and trusted branch, and manually apply your trust criteria
on each merge.  GIT does not allow you to keep track of which
revisions you chose to trust the last time you merged, so each time
you merge, you may see the same untrusted revisions again and again.

In Monotone you'll never see the untrusted revisions at all, if you
don't want to; and you can "approve" a revision to record the fact
that you trust it.  Granted, it seems more complicated but it is also
more correct, IMHO, than GIT's model.

> But I'd have to actually use both on a real project to be sure. Of
> course, I don't have the time for that :(.

In a few years, maybe there will be a clear winner between svk, GIT,
Monotone, Mercurial, Bazaar-NG, Arch and Darcs, but in the mean time,
I've come to terms with the notion that I'll use many VCSs
concurrently, perhaps a different one for each project.  I have no
problem using GIT to update Debian, if that's what you want.  (I do
have a problem with svk and Subversion, though).

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Robert A Duff]

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:

>...(I do
> have a problem with svk and Subversion, though).

What is the problem with subversion?  Just curious...

- Bob

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Robert A Duff writes:
> Ludovic Brenta writes:
>
>>...(I do
>> have a problem with svk and Subversion, though).
>
> What is the problem with subversion?  Just curious...

The working model, which is to say, the high-level design.  IOW,
Subversion is completely and utterly broken IMHO.  The reasons:

- centralised
- does not keep track of merges
- thinks a branch is a directory
- thinks a tag is a directory
- thinks there is only one project per repository
- makes it easy for one commit to mistakenly revert the previous
  commit (i.e. if you forget to merge into your working copy before
  you commit)

svk solves the first two problems, but if you work with svk and other
team members work with Subversion directly, you're in for trouble.
Not because of bugs, but because the very model is broken.  Been
there, done that (with the Debian packaging scripts for GCC).

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:
> - centralised
> - does not keep track of merges
> - thinks a branch is a directory
> - thinks a tag is a directory
> - thinks there is only one project per repository
> - makes it easy for one commit to mistakenly revert the previous
>   commit (i.e. if you forget to merge into your working copy before
>   you commit)

Oh, and also:

- does not allow crypto signatures on commits
- does not guarantee data integrity by means of strong hashes
- does not allow DAGgy fixes [1]

and then there are shortcomings of "just" the implementation:

- ridiculously inefficient storage [2]
- working copies contain two copies of every file (one hidden)

[1] http://www.venge.net/monotone/wiki/DaggyFixes
[2] GCC in CVS: 3.5 Gb; GCC in Subversion: 8.5 Gb and growing.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Pascal Obry]

Ludovic Brenta a �crit :

> [1] http://www.venge.net/monotone/wiki/DaggyFixes
> [2] GCC in CVS: 3.5 Gb; GCC in Subversion: 8.5 Gb and growing.

Is that with Subversion 1.4 ? When switching to 1.4 from 1.3 my
repository became 40%-50% smaller.

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|              http://www.obry.net
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Pascal Obry writes:
> Ludovic Brenta a écrit :
>
>> [1] http://www.venge.net/monotone/wiki/DaggyFixes
>> [2] GCC in CVS: 3.5 Gb; GCC in Subversion: 8.5 Gb and growing.
>
> Is that with Subversion 1.4 ? When switching to 1.4 from 1.3 my
> repository became 40%-50% smaller.

That was when they switched to Subversion, so the sizes can be
compared meaningfully.  If memory serves, that was just a little
before the release of 1.3, and they had some special patches on the
both the server and the clients.  Even assuming 50% improvement, the
repository would be 4.25 Gb which is still 21% worse than CVS.  In
comparison, Monotone uses 65% *less* space than CVS.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: version control systems

[Stephen Leake]

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:

> Stephen Leake writes:
>> I've finally decided I need to use a distributed CM system at work
>> (I've been using CVS). I'm looking into using 'git', mostly because
>> there is a Cygwin port for it, and the Linux kernel developers use
>> it, so I think it is well-supported.
>
> Yes, and X.org also uses it for the same reasons.

Although now I see there is also a Cygwin package for monotone.

>> For a similar purpose (trusted vs untrusted committers), they
>> recommend using branches. Apparently it is easy in git to
>> synchronize two branches periodically.
>
> Yes.  All the new distributed VCSs handle and keep rack of merges
> properly, so repeated merges are usually not a problem.  GIT also
> allows you to crypto-sign revisions, but that's optional whereas in
> Monotone it is mandatory.  How can you trust unsigned revisions?  The
> only way is to review them manually.  How can you ascertain their
> origin, if someone challenges your copyright?  You can't.

That is an interesting point.

> All in all I think that GIT is pretty good, but Monotone is even
> better.  I even wrote a paper about this:
>
> http://www.ada-france.org/debian/distributed-version-control-systems.html

Thanks for that. I did wonder about the storage efficiency of git. I
could not believe they actually stored a whole new file for each
revision! The "pack" option was not mentioned in the git manual I
read.

>> That seems more straight-forward to me than the monotone trust
>> mechanism.
>
> I'm not sure how straightforward that is; I think this model is
> fundamentally flawed.  In a distributed VCS, anyone can commit to any
> branch they please, since they control their own repositories.
> Therefore, you don't trust "branches" but "revisions".
>
> So, in GIT, you'd have to carefully merge from a published but
> untrusted branch (i.e. one containing untrusted revisions) to your
> unpublished and trusted branch, and manually apply your trust criteria
> on each merge.  GIT does not allow you to keep track of which
> revisions you chose to trust the last time you merged, so each time
> you merge, you may see the same untrusted revisions again and again.

That's true.

> In Monotone you'll never see the untrusted revisions at all, if you
> don't want to; and you can "approve" a revision to record the fact
> that you trust it.  Granted, it seems more complicated but it is also
> more correct, IMHO, than GIT's model.
>
>> But I'd have to actually use both on a real project to be sure. Of
>> course, I don't have the time for that :(.
>
> In a few years, maybe there will be a clear winner between svk, GIT,
> Monotone, Mercurial, Bazaar-NG, Arch and Darcs, but in the mean time,
> I've come to terms with the notion that I'll use many VCSs
> concurrently, perhaps a different one for each project.  I have no
> problem using GIT to update Debian, if that's what you want.  (I do
> have a problem with svk and Subversion, though).

Well, I have not actually started using git. In fact, there's a
problem compiling it on Lynx (the real-time OS that is my main
application's target). So I'll give monotone a try.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: version control systems

[Ludovic Brenta]

Stephen Leake writes:
> So I'll give monotone a try.

Great.  The main disadvantage of monotone is that it requires a
dedicated server and there are few public hosting services.
Ada-France solves that for Ada programmers.  If you wish to make your
development public, just ask for write permission.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Stephen Leake]

Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> I found the sources, at http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html
>
> I've downloaded them, and got an initial compile. Running it on the
> ARM sources dies with an error in my info code. There are several new
> dispatching functions I need to implement, so it will be a while. But
> I'll work on it.

Well, it turned out to be easier than I thought. I've posted an
initial draft of the ARM and AARM in Info format on my website;
http://stephe-leake.org/ada/arm.html

I looked at the places where I needed to add new code, and
spot-checked a few other things. But I have _not_ read the whole info
output. 

I'd like people to compare a couple sections to the other formats, or
just read some sections, and see if there are any obvious problems.

-- 
-- Stephe

RE: Ada Reference Manual in texinfo format?

[Randy Brukardt]

> Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
> > I found the sources, at http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html
> >
> > I've downloaded them, and got an initial compile. Running it on the
> > ARM sources dies with an error in my info code. There are several new
> > dispatching functions I need to implement, so it will be a while. But
> > I'll work on it.
>
> Well, it turned out to be easier than I thought.

I'm not too surprised. Many of the new capabilities are used in the
Rationale, or the ASIS Standard, or in RR's manuals (that is, not in the
RM). For instance, I don't think there are any pictures (images) in the RM,
while there are some in all of the other documents.

                   Randy.

Re: version control systems

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> Stephen Leake writes:
>> So I'll give monotone a try.
> 
> Great.  The main disadvantage of monotone is that it requires a
> dedicated server and there are few public hosting services.

No, it doesn't. However, it's good to have one.

Bye... 

        Dirk
-- 
Dirk Heinrichs          | Tel:  +49 (0)162 234 3408
Configuration Manager   | Fax:  +49 (0)211 47068 111
Capgemini Deutschland   | Mail: dirk.heinrichs@capgemini.com
Hambornerstraße 55      | Web:  http://www.capgemini.com
D-40472 Düsseldorf      | ICQ#: 110037733
GPG Public Key C2E467BB | Keyserver: www.keyserver.net

Re: version control systems

[Ludovic Brenta]

Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>
>> The main disadvantage of monotone is that it requires a
>> dedicated server and there are few public hosting services.
>
> No, it doesn't. However, it's good to have one.

OK, to give more details on what Dirk implied: monotone can "serve"
over SSH by starting a new mtn process on the server, in the user's
SSH session. This process locks the database, so only one user can
sync with it at any one time. The process exits when the sync is
complete. With the dedicated server on port 4691, several users can
use the database concurrently, and do not require SSH access.

And of course, a central database is not always required in the first
place.

Still, hosting may be a problem, and Ada-France solves it.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: version control systems

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
>> Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>>
>>> The main disadvantage of monotone is that it requires a
>>> dedicated server and there are few public hosting services.
>>
>> No, it doesn't. However, it's good to have one.
> 
> OK, to give more details on what Dirk implied: monotone can "serve"
> over SSH by starting a new mtn process on the server, in the user's
> SSH session. This process locks the database, so only one user can
> sync with it at any one time. The process exits when the sync is
> complete. With the dedicated server on port 4691, several users can
> use the database concurrently, and do not require SSH access.

What I really implied was that one can sync with anybody who has a copy of
the database. Thus, there is no strong need for a dedicated server.
However, having one makes sure you have at least one place to sync with.

Didn't know about the SSH thing at all :-)

Bye...

        Dirk
-- 
Dirk Heinrichs          | Tel:  +49 (0)162 234 3408
Configuration Manager   | Fax:  +49 (0)211 47068 111
Capgemini Deutschland   | Mail: dirk.heinrichs@capgemini.com
Hambornerstraße 55      | Web:  http://www.capgemini.com
D-40472 Düsseldorf      | ICQ#: 110037733
GPG Public Key C2E467BB | Keyserver: www.keyserver.net