Who uses Ada??

Who uses Ada??

[olivea!charnel!csusac!usenet]

	I am a DOD civillian engineer who is obviously affected by the
Ada mandate.  I was having a conversation with a co-worker and we came
up with a question.  Who (companies, and individuals, and schools) use
Ada AND, are not associated with the US federal government or government
contracting.  In other words, who uses Ada because they want to, not
because they were told to?

Thanks,

Kevin Metcalfe
metcalfeke@allin1.dnet@c3po.sm-alc.af.mil

p.s.  Remember, use C, go to jail.

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Larry Maturo]

In article <1992Nov3.191829.22803@csusac.csus.edu> cs13517@athena.ecs.csus.edu 
writes:
>
>	I am a DOD civillian engineer who is obviously affected by the
>Ada mandate.  I was having a conversation with a co-worker and we came
>up with a question.  Who (companies, and individuals, and schools) use
>Ada AND, are not associated with the US federal government or government
>contracting.  In other words, who uses Ada because they want to, not
>because they were told to?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Kevin Metcalfe
>metcalfeke@allin1.dnet@c3po.sm-alc.af.mil
>
>p.s.  Remember, use C, go to jail.


You left out the important and growing group of those who must use Ada and afte
r
having had to use would not switch even if they could.  Try it, you'll like it.

+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
|                                   |                                        |
| Larry Maturo                      | Opinions expressed herein must be      |
| Tactical Simulation Division      | yours, neither I nor my employer have  |
| Applied Research Laboratories     | any.                                   |
| University of Texas at Austin     |                                        |
| P.O. Box 8029                     +----------------------------------------+
| Austin, Texas 78713-8029          |                                        |
|                                   | When you're as great as I am it's hard |
| larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu  | to be modest, but I succeed where      |
|                                   | others fail.                           |
+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1992Nov3.191829.22803@csusac.csus.edu> cs13517@athena.ecs.csus.edu 
writes:
>
>	I am a DOD civillian engineer who is obviously affected by the
>Ada mandate.  I was having a conversation with a co-worker and we came
>up with a question.  Who (companies, and individuals, and schools) use
>Ada AND, are not associated with the US federal government or government
>contracting.  In other words, who uses Ada because they want to, not
>because they were told to?
>
This list hasn't been updated for a while, but it's a start.

Mike Feldman
(list follows sig)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"Americans wants the fruits of patience -- and they want them now."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some Non-Governmental Ada Applications

sources: Commercial Ada Users Working Group (CAUWG), 
AdaStrategies, Ada Anthology, published reports, 
vendor newsletters, etc., 

summarized by
Michael B. Feldman
Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052
202-994-5253
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu

Here is a list of non-governmental Ada projects of which I am 
aware. Readers are invited to correct or add entries 
and send them to me. The CAUWG chair, Ben Brosgol, can be 
reached at brosgol@ajpo.sei.cmu.edu or (617) 270-0030; Ralph 
Crafts, the editor of Ada Strategies, a commercial Ada-
oriented newsletter, and Ada Anthology, a summary of 
newsletter articles, can be reached at (304) 725-6542.

USA	Boeing: 747-400 subsystem components of cockpit 
        displays, on-board maintenance systems, secondary 
        flight controls

USA     Boeing: almost all new software for 777 project

USA	Boneck Printing: job costing system, Janus/Ada

USA	Coulter: medical electronics, including hematology analysis  

USA	Design Aids: commercial frame-by-frame videotape 
        editing system, 11,000 lines, Janus/Ada

USA	Dimensional Media Systems: Doorway, hypertext 
        "information manager," MS-DOS, Meridian

USA	Dowell-Schlumberger: oil exploration simulation 
        software, 20,000 lines, DEC

USA	General Electric/Weirton Steel: hot steel rolling 
        mill, >600,000 lines, multiple MicroVax-en, DEC Ada

USA	Genesis Software, Inc.: complete bill paying system, 
        250,000 lines, Wang VS, Alsys; ported easily to VAX

USA	HP: hardware CAD system for internal use in chip development

USA	LDS Hospital: medical decision support system, 
        40,000 lines, DOS, Alsys (for NASA, but appears to 
        be commercial-type application)

USA	MAN Truck and Bus Company: multi-state payroll 
        system, Janus/Ada (1982!)

USA	Motorola: cellular phone switch testing system, 
        >100,000 lines, Alsys and TeleSoft.

USA	PC-based programmer for embedded medical products.

USA	Reuters: transaction processing for Chicago 
        Mercantile Exchange, >250,000 lines, interfaces to 
        commercial DBMS

USA	Rockwell: Fokker F100 Multi-Function Display System, 
        33,000 lines, Irvine Compilers

USA	Rockwell: Advanced Railroad Electronic System (real-
        time tracking and communications with trains using GPS)

USA	Rollins Leasing (national leader in truck leasing 
        and vehicle management): integrated fuel management 
        system, Janus/Ada.

USA	Wells-Fargo Investment Advisors (WFNIA): real-time 
        investment database system, 50,000 lines, DEC/VAX.

Australia CSA: ground stations for an L-Band car-to-satellite telephone
        system in Australia.  Multiple sites, many processors linked in
        real-time; Sun SPARC, Sun SPARCengine; 100,000 SLOC;
        SunAda, VADSWorks.

Finland Nokia Information Systems: online banking systems, 
        2,000,000 lines, uses Ada as its standard 
        programming language.

France	CMG: turnkey signal processing, industrial automation.

France	Euristic Systems: expert system to manage continuous 
        data acquisition, ApolloDomain network, Alsys.

France	GEC Alsthom: fully-committed to Ada for railroad 
        subsystems including French high-speed train (TGV) 
        network and Channel Tunnel.

France	SEMA Group: software to control nuclear power plant.

France	Strategies: CADWIN, PC-based CAD/CAM product, 
        300,000 lines, Alsys.

France	Thomson-CSF: Air Traffic Control systems in 
        Copenhagen, Kenya, Pakistan, simulators in 
        Switzerland, Ireland, more ATC systems coming. 
        300,000 lines, DG/MV10000

France	TOTAL (oil company): computer-assisted extraction of 
        oil products, bare 68020, 300,000 lines, Alsys.

Germany	dSpace: tools to control fast systems such as hard 
        disks, vehicle suspensions, robots, Alsys.

Holland	Royal Dutch Post and Telecom: PC-based system for 
        control and monitoring of public telecommunication 
        service, 20,000 lines, Alsys.

Japan	Nippon Telephone and Telegraph: videotex 
        communication system, mobile communication system, 
        satellite communication system, database management 
        system; all commercially available; >2,000,000 lines.

Spain	Teice Control, SA: control system for 40 buildings 
        in industrial area of Madrid Airport (A/C, power 
        supply, fire: detection, etc.)

Sweden	ESAB: robotic welding stations for use in flexible 
        manufacturing systems, TeleSoft, Vax and 680x0

Sweden	Volvo: materials handling system (robotic parts 
        carts), TeleSoft.

Sweden	Color display element of hospital building control 
        and monitoring system: 1600 I/O channels, 200 
        dynamic color displays, lots of tasking, Meridian.

Sweden	Swedish Telecom: telephone switch controller (PABX), VAX.

UK	Avantek: Access Mac (lets MS DOS disk drives read, 
        write, format Macintosh disks), 16,000 lines, 1 man-year, Janus/Ada.

UK	CORAL: DACMAN, simulation and data monitoring system 
        for auto engines, IBM PC, 80,000 lines of code, Alsys, Meridian.

UK	GeoMatrix: PC demographics research system, 60,000 lines, Alsys.

UK	Orbitel Mobile Communications: cellular phone base station, Alsys.

UK	Process Plant and Chemicals: chemical process 
        control systems, >20,000 lines, PC compatibles, Alsys.

UK	Univ. of Southampton, modeling of deep: sea 
        ecosystem, IBM 3090, 2000 lines, Alsys.

Re: Who uses Ada??

[fred j mccall 575-3539]

In <1992Nov3.213837.6505@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> larry@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu
 (Larry Maturo) writes:

>In article <1992Nov3.191829.22803@csusac.csus.edu> cs13517@athena.ecs.csus.edu
 writes:
>>
>>	I am a DOD civillian engineer who is obviously affected by the
>>Ada mandate.  I was having a conversation with a co-worker and we came
>>up with a question.  Who (companies, and individuals, and schools) use
>>Ada AND, are not associated with the US federal government or government
>>contracting.  In other words, who uses Ada because they want to, not
>>because they were told to?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Kevin Metcalfe
>>metcalfeke@allin1.dnet@c3po.sm-alc.af.mil
>>
>>p.s.  Remember, use C, go to jail.


>You left out the important and growing group of those who must use Ada and aft
er
>having had to use would not switch even if they could.  Try it, you'll like it
.

I have.  I would personally rather use C++, but this is all a matter
of personal choice.  I'm afraid I find some of the more religious
language bigots more than slightly silly at times (not intended to
point to anyone in particular -- I just don't think that this silly
'language bigotry' can be bashed too often; it's what keeps people
from using the appropriate tools for the job and automatically makes a
lot of people bristle against a language).

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Larry Maturo]

In article <1992Nov4.185521.2322@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (f
red j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1992Nov3.213837.6505@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> larry@tsd.arlut.utexas.ed
u (Larry Maturo) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Nov3.191829.22803@csusac.csus.edu> cs13517@athena.ecs.csus.ed
u writes:
>>>
>>>	I am a DOD civillian engineer who is obviously affected by the
>>>Ada mandate.  I was having a conversation with a co-worker and we came
>>>up with a question.  Who (companies, and individuals, and schools) use
>>>Ada AND, are not associated with the US federal government or government
>>>contracting.  In other words, who uses Ada because they want to, not
>>>because they were told to?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Kevin Metcalfe
>>>metcalfeke@allin1.dnet@c3po.sm-alc.af.mil
>>>
>>>p.s.  Remember, use C, go to jail.
>
>
>>You left out the important and growing group of those who must use Ada and af
ter
>>having had to use would not switch even if they could.  Try it, you'll like i
t.
>
>I have.  I would personally rather use C++, but this is all a matter
>of personal choice.  I'm afraid I find some of the more religious
>language bigots more than slightly silly at times (not intended to
>point to anyone in particular -- I just don't think that this silly
>'language bigotry' can be bashed too often; it's what keeps people
>from using the appropriate tools for the job and automatically makes a
>lot of people bristle against a language).
>
>-- 
>"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
> in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me
.

>
>
I couldn't agree more.  I prefer the languages Ada, Modula-2, Modula-3, Oberon,
and ICON.  I've used C, C++, and assembly and find them appropriate at times.  
Only
liking or being able to utilize one language is very limiting.
>
>
+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
|                                   |                                        |
| Larry Maturo                      | Opinions expressed herein must be      |
| Tactical Simulation Division      | yours, neither I nor my employer have  |
| Applied Research Laboratories     | any.                                   |
| University of Texas at Austin     |                                        |
| P.O. Box 8029                     +----------------------------------------+
| Austin, Texas 78713-8029          |                                        |
|                                   | When you're as great as I am it's hard |
| larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu  | to be modest, but I succeed where      |
|                                   | others fail.                           |
+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+

Re: Who uses Ada??

[sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!world!tne]

cs13517@athena.ecs.csus.edu writes:


>	I am a DOD civillian engineer who is obviously affected by the
>Ada mandate.  I was having a conversation with a co-worker and we came
>up with a question.  Who (companies, and individuals, and schools) use
>Ada AND, are not associated with the US federal government or government
>contracting.  In other words, who uses Ada because they want to, not
>because they were told to?


As an Ada vendor, I can list some of the non-mandated organizations using
Ada.  This list is very extensive, though, and any attempt I make would be
incomplete.  A more thorough list can be obtained from AJPO (the Ada Joint
Program Office) via the AJPO host (ajpo.sei.cmu.edu) or the Ada
Information Clearinghouse BBS (713)614-0215.

Some of the organizations (off the top of my head):

Wells Fargo Bank
Bell Northern Research
Nippon Telephone & Telegraph
Boeing
NASA
SNCF (the French Railroad)
Genesis Software (a software house who develops imaging systems)
Silicon Graphics
Nobeltech (Sweden)


and many others ...

The applications are principally focused on benefitting from Ada's re-use and
reliability advantages.



Tom Erickson

-- 
Tom Erickson
Alsys
tne@world.std.com

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Val Kartchner]

larry@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes:
: You left out the important and growing group of those who must use Ada and
: after having had to use would not switch even if they could.  Try it,
: you'll like it.

I've tried it.  (Assuming you call >28KSLOC/yr trying.)  I don't like it.
I prefer to use the right tool for the job.  If that's Ada, then I'll
use that.  However, many people only know one language and assume that
that language is best for everything.

I consider it telling that it is endorsed (by mandate) by an organization
which can't balance it's collective checkbook (and many individual ones).
--
|== with disclaimer; use disclaimer; == val@csulx.weber.edu ==///=============|
| "Ada and C++: A Business Case Analysis" -- Air Force Study /// Weber State  |
| "And what would you like this study to conclude, sir?" \\\///   University  |
|========== -- Mr. Richfield, "Dinosaurs" ================\///= Ogden UT USA =|

Re: Who uses Ada??

[sdd.hp.com!scd.hp.com!hpscdm!hplextra!hpcss01!hpwala!hpavla!hawk]

In article <1992Nov3.191829.22803@csusac.csus.edu> cs13517@athena.ecs.csus.edu 
writes:
>Who uses Ada because they want to, not
>because they were told to?
>
>Kevin Metcalfe

How about those of us that want to use Ada, but are told to use C?

Re: Who uses Ada??

[cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu]

In article <1992Nov5.015812.17210@fcom.cc.utah.edu> val@news.ccutah.edu (Val Ka
rtchner) writes:
>larry@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes:
>: You left out the important and growing group of those who must use Ada and
>: after having had to use would not switch even if they could.  Try it,
>: you'll like it.
>
>I've tried it.  (Assuming you call >28KSLOC/yr trying.)  I don't like it.
>I prefer to use the right tool for the job.  If that's Ada, then I'll
>use that.  However, many people only know one language and assume that
>that language is best for everything.
>
>I consider it telling that it is endorsed (by mandate) by an organization
>which can't balance it's collective checkbook (and many individual ones).
>--
>|== with disclaimer; use disclaimer; == val@csulx.weber.edu ==///=============
|
>| "Ada and C++: A Business Case Analysis" -- Air Force Study /// Weber State  
|
>| "And what would you like this study to conclude, sir?" \\\///   University  
|
>|========== -- Mr. Richfield, "Dinosaurs" ================\///= Ogden UT USA =
|


As I said in an earlier post I think it's silly to only know and/or use one
language.  Languages are tools, one size does not fit all.  On the other hand,
I find it hard to believe that there are people who don't find Ada the right
tool for any job.  I suspect the problem is with them more than with Ada.  Heck
,
I've even found problems best solved by assembly language at times.  And of
course, whatever language is the right tool for the job you should like while
you are doing that job since if it's the right tool it's saving you time and/or
effort better spent else where.

+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
|                                   |                                        |
| Larry Maturo                      | Opinions expressed herein must be      |
| Tactical Simulation Division      | yours, neither I nor my employer have  |
| Applied Research Laboratories     | any.                                   |
| University of Texas at Austin     |                                        |
| P.O. Box 8029                     +----------------------------------------+
| Austin, Texas 78713-8029          |                                        |
|                                   | When you're as great as I am it's hard |
| larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu  | to be modest, but I succeed where      |
|                                   | others fail.                           |
+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Bob Kitzberger]

val@news.ccutah.edu (Val Kartchner) writes:

>I prefer to use the right tool for the job.  If that's Ada, then I'll
>use that.  However, many people only know one language and assume that
>that language is best for everything.

This isn't directed at you, Val, but it's related to the sentiment
you express above:

The "right tool for the job" is not the same as "my personal preference".
If both "the right tool for the job" and "personal preference" point to
the same language/toolset, then great.  If not, then you have a decision
to make.  You can tell a hacker from an engineer in how that decision
is made.

The more tools you have experience with, the better equipped you are
to make that decision.  The more problem domains you have experience
with, the better equipped you are, as well.

	.Bob.
----------------
Bob Kitzberger          VisiCom Laboratories, Inc.
rlk@visicom.com         10052 Mesa Ridge Court, San Diego CA 92121 USA
                        +1 619 457 2111    FAX +1 619 457 0888

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1992Nov5.015812.17210@fcom.cc.utah.edu> val@news.ccutah.edu (Val Ka
rtchner) writes:

[stuff deleted]
>
>I consider it telling that it is endorsed (by mandate) by an organization
>which can't balance it's collective checkbook (and many individual ones).

Someday over a cup of coffee, we can talk about how stuff gets into law
in this town. It ain't what you learned in civics class, for sure.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"Americans wants the fruits of patience -- and they want them now."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Who uses Ada??

[cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!des]

In <9110003@hpavla.lf.hp.com> hawk@hpavla.lf.hp.com (Dave Hawk) writes:

>How about those of us that want to use Ada, but are told to use C?

Amen to that. Would you believe that at one point, the estimated difference
in lifecycle cost (i.e. the total delta over the estimated 30-year
life of a particular system) was $45 million HIGHER if Ada was the
development language?

I didn't believe it either, but it's unfortunately true.

And of course I'm not speaking for NASA or New Technology, Inc.

-Paul
-- 
Paul Robichaux, KD4JZG              | May explode if disposed of improperly.
Mission Software Development Div.   | Printed on recycled phosphors.
New Technology, Inc.		    | ** PGP 2.0 key available on request **

Re: Who uses Ada??

[David Emery]

>the estimated difference in lifecycle cost (i.e. the total delta over
>the estimated 30-year life of a particular system) was $45 million
>HIGHER if Ada was the development language?

I'd very much like to see a reference/citation for this, as it flies
in the face of both deeply held religious beliefs and also most of the
available data (e.g.  Reifer studies, AFATDS preliminary data, etc).

				dave p.s.  I've seen some people come
up with higher start-up costs for Ada.  (In part due to retraining,
learning the language, etc, and in part due to front-loading the life
cycle by spending more time doing design.)  It's possible that someone
took the delta from start-up costs, and applied it into his favorite
old-fashioned cost model to obtain linear cost increases.  

Re: Who uses Ada??

[David Emery]

>the estimated difference in lifecycle cost (i.e. the total delta over
>the estimated 30-year life of a particular system) was $45 million
>HIGHER if Ada was the development language?

I'd very much like to see a reference/citation for this, as it flies
in the face of both deeply held religious beliefs and also most of the
available data (e.g.  Reifer studies, AFATDS preliminary data, etc).

				dave 

p.s.  I've seen some people come up with higher start-up costs for
Ada.  (In part due to retraining, learning the language, etc, and in
part due to front-loading the life cycle by spending more time doing
design.)  It's possible that someone took the delta from start-up
costs, and applied it into his favorite old-fashioned cost model to
obtain linear cost increases.

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Paul Robichaux]

In <EMERY.92Nov6111557@Dr_No.mitre.org> emery@Dr_No.mitre.org (David Emery) wri
tes:

>>the estimated difference in lifecycle cost (i.e. the total delta over
>>the estimated 30-year life of a particular system) was $45 million
>>HIGHER if Ada was the development language?

>I'd very much like to see a reference/citation for this, as it flies
>in the face of both deeply held religious beliefs and also most of the
>available data (e.g.  Reifer studies, AFATDS preliminary data, etc).

The prediction was for a somewhat higher startup cost (including
retraining, buying expensive Ada compilers (as though there were any
other kind), and so on), and I suspect what happened is what you
wrote: the higher startup cost was iterated over the program lifetime.

Of course, I'm sure there are/were other political, and possibly
financial, reasons for not using Ada on this particular project. None
of the ones I've heard make any more sense than the $45 million delta.

-Paul
 employed by, but not speaking for, New Technology, Inc.
 not _even_ employed by NASA
-- 
Paul Robichaux, KD4JZG              | May explode if disposed of improperly.
Mission Software Development Div.   | Printed on recycled phosphors.
New Technology, Inc.		    | ** PGP 2.0 key available on request **

Re: Who uses Ada??

[saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!ogi]

In article <9110003@hpavla.lf.hp.com>, hawk@hpavla.lf.hp.com (Dave Hawk) writes
:
|>Path: pnl-oracle!ogicse!emory!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!scd.hp.co
m!hpscdm!hplextra!hpcss01!hpwala!hpavla!hawk
|>From: hawk@hpavla.lf.hp.com (Dave Hawk)
|>Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
|>Subject: Re: Who uses Ada??
|>Message-ID: <9110003@hpavla.lf.hp.com>
|>Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 05:02:21 PST
|>Article-I.D.: hpavla.9110003
|>References: <1992Nov3.191829.22803@csusac.csus.edu>
|>Organization: Hewlett-Packard Little Falls Site
|>Lines: 7
|>
|>In article <1992Nov3.191829.22803@csusac.csus.edu> cs13517@athena.ecs.csus.ed
u writes:
|>>Who uses Ada because they want to, not
|>>because they were told to?
|>>
|>>Kevin Metcalfe
|>
|>How about those of us that want to use Ada, but are told to use C?
|>
--

	I second that, maybe when GNU-Ada comes I can overcome the Cost
	objection.

	"C is it's own virus..."
				ANON.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	To Thyne Own Self be true...
	                             myne opinions are.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Who uses Ada??

[pa.dec.com!rdg.dec.com!ljohub.enet.dec.com!jessop]

>	I am a DOD civillian engineer who is obviously affected by the
>Ada mandate.  I was having a conversation with a co-worker and we came
>up with a question.  Who (companies, and individuals, and schools) use
>Ada AND, are not associated with the US federal government or government
>contracting.  In other words, who uses Ada because they want to, not
>because they were told to?

I do, whenever I can, and whenever it fits the bill.  I taught myself Ada
several years ago and fell in love with it.  I think it is an excellent
language because it is very powerful, modular and strongly typed.  It's 
error handling features are a great bonus too.  

Admittedly, I don't always use it like it SHOULD be used because I like to
find any reason to use it... but hey...

Mike

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Pascal Obry]

I'am one of them, and I find this very mean. How could I write C program
when I know that Ada exist ? but I must, and I think we are not alone Dave !!

When you work in group there is always the MUBTB rule.
Of course MUBTB = 'Make Uniform By The Bottom'.
You can't escape !!

But it's also true in others area (for example) :

	In France we want that 80% of peoples get their baccalaureat.
	Ok, But do you think that we try to improve the cources or
	pay more the teacher to get better ones ... No, we lower the
	level of the exams. It's the easiest solution, and this solution
	is include into the MUBTB class.

Pascal.
--

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  Pascal OBRY								     --
--  Room 2D-337				e_mail : obry@bellcore.com  	     --
--  Bellcore								     --
--  445 South Street			voice : 1 - 201 829 4039	     --
--  Post Office Box 1910						     --
--  Morristown, New Jersey 07962-1910					     --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  `` inheritance is surely a good answer, but who knows the question ? ''

Re: Who uses Ada??

[sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff]

   With regard to Dr. Feldman's list of use of Ada in non-mandated areas,
his parody of comparative analysis was perfect.  ANyone familiar with the
demographics of software in the real world will realize that even a list of
the use of Lisp and Prolog commercial applications, and probably Forth also,
exceeds the list and LOC counts for the Ada list.  Cheers, cheers for such
a good parody !!!!

Greg Aharonian
-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Michael Feldman]

In article <SRCTRAN.92Nov8115517@world.std.com> srctran@world.std.com (Gregory 
Aharonian) writes:
>   With regard to Dr. Feldman's list of use of Ada in non-mandated areas,
>his parody of comparative analysis was perfect.  ANyone familiar with the
>demographics of software in the real world will realize that even a list of
>the use of Lisp and Prolog commercial applications, and probably Forth also,
>exceeds the list and LOC counts for the Ada list.  Cheers, cheers for such
>a good parody !!!!
>
Well, the LOC counts may be wrong, but the list of projects is - for better
or worse - pretty correct. I'm glad you find humor in it, Greg, but it was
unintended...

I have gotten some private mail with a few more projects, and will fix the
list up shortly. You'll like it even better then :-)

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"Americans wants the fruits of patience -- and they want them now."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Who uses Ada??

[david.c.willett]

>From article <SRCTRAN.92Nov8115517@world.std.com>, by srctran@world.std.com (G
regory Aharonian):
>    With regard to Dr. Feldman's list of use of Ada in non-mandated areas,
> his parody of comparative analysis was perfect.  ANyone familiar with the
> demographics of software in the real world will realize that even a list of
> the use of Lisp and Prolog commercial applications, and probably Forth also,
> exceeds the list and LOC counts for the Ada list.  Cheers, cheers for such
> a good parody !!!!
> 
> Greg Aharonian
> -- 
> **************************************************************************
> Greg Aharonian
> Source Translation & Optimiztion
> P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Well... Let's see how good I am at the assertion game.  Anyone who knows 
anything about software metrics in the real world, knows how faulty a measure
of project size and significance the LOC count is.  Cheers, cheers for such
a vaccuous observation!!

Dave

-- 
Dave Willett          AT&T Federal Systems Advanced Technologies
attmail!dwillett      (AT&T FSAT)
-- Some girls don't like boys like me.... Oh but some girls do!
	-- Sawyer Brown

Re: Who uses Ada??

[mcsun!news.funet.fi!network.jyu.fi!sakkinen]

In article <1992Nov6.182444.28936@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> robichau@lambda.msfc.na
sa.gov writes:
>In <EMERY.92Nov6111557@Dr_No.mitre.org> emery@Dr_No.mitre.org (David Emery) wr
ites:
>
>>>the estimated difference in lifecycle cost (i.e. the total delta over
>>>the estimated 30-year life of a particular system) was $45 million
>>>HIGHER if Ada was the development language?
>
>>I'd very much like to see a reference/citation for this, as it flies
>>in the face of both deeply held religious beliefs and also most of the
>>available data (e.g.  Reifer studies, AFATDS preliminary data, etc).
>
>The prediction was for a somewhat higher startup cost (including
>retraining, buying expensive Ada compilers (as though there were any
>other kind), and so on), and I suspect what happened is what you
>wrote: the higher startup cost was iterated over the program lifetime.
> ...

Thus the whole estimate was bogus!
I.e. the people who made it did not understand (or believe) at all
that investing in better tools at the beginning will save costs
at later stages, not increase them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Markku Sakkinen (sakkinen@jytko.jyu.fi)
       SAKKINEN@FINJYU.bitnet (alternative network address)
Department of Computer Science and Information Systems
University of Jyvaskyla (a's with umlauts)
PL 35
SF-40351 Jyvaskyla (umlauts again)
Finland
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Benjamin Ketteridge]

I'm one of those people who was taught Ada as a first language, and have since
tried other languages, finding that I much prefer Ada to other languages, (I've
tried Basic (ick!!), Pascal, C (who hasn't!), M68000 assembly, ML, POP11, and
various Robotic languages (VAL II, RAPT, and AL).

I'm now a postgraduate student at UCW Aberystwyth, Wales, where I also did my
first degree (Comp Sci). Ada is the taught language of this department, but the
re
are moves to incorporate some C into the second year, to give a broader experie
nce
of programming languages! >8->

ciao

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|    _|--|_    | Disclaimer: I know nothing! Do you really know anything?  |
|     (\/)     +-------------------------------+---------------------------+
|      vv      | We've a Gremlin in the works! |      btk@aber.ac.uk       |
+--------------+-------------------------------+---------------------------+

Re: Who uses Ada??

[cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!]

>>  Well.. Let's see how good I am at the assertion game.  Anyone who knows
>> anything about software metrics in the real world, knows how faulty a
>> measure of project size and significance the LOC count is.  Cheers, cheers
>> for such a vaccuous observation!!

Cheers, cheers for this parody of a stinging rebuke.  Which observation is
vaccous?  Dr. Feldman's (and other postings on comp.lang.ada) of Ada projects
with LOC count prominently displayed, or my rebuttal with real world measures.

In case it was me, let me generalize:  for all voluntary decisions regarding
the choice of a computer language, any measurable demographic (money spent,
people hired, lines of code, tools used, reusable software used or bought),
for Ada is exceeded by most older languages (Cobol, Fortran), most newer
languages (C/C++), or parity for niche languages (Lisp, Forth, Basic).

And just think, I was about to say something nice about ATT's success with
the use and reuse of its birthed language, C++.

In fact, how about finding out how much C/C++ code that all of ATT has.
I don't think I have ever seen such a summary anywhere.

Greg Aharonian

-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Dag Bruck]

In <comp.lang.ada> srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian) writes:
>
>In fact, how about finding out how much C/C++ code that all of ATT has.
>I don't think I have ever seen such a summary anywhere.

That would indeed be interesting; I guess it is much less than people
in general think.  For example, I don't think your local telephone
switch has any C++ in it.

For whatever it is worth, I recently saw an estimate that there are
some 500.000 users of C++.  I recall that the Moseman report indicates
something similar in the summary of the number of sold C++ compilers.

			-- Dag

Re: Who uses Ada??

[cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.e]

In article 25481@seas.gwu.edu, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
>In article <SRCTRAN.92Nov8115517@world.std.com> srctran@world.std.com (Gregory
 Aharonian) writes:
>I have gotten some private mail with a few more projects, and will fix the
>list up shortly. You'll like it even better then :-)

Hmm... yes, I'd be interested to see who uses Ada by choice. I've
been trying to use it for months now and really trying to keep an
open mind about it, but I really, honestly haven't been able to
see any merit in the language whatsoever. I'm more familiar with
functional and interpreted languages than imperative compiled ones
so maybe I'm just looking for the wrong things. Is there an FAQ
that might give some clues as to what aspects of Ada provide
programmers with a sense of freedom, or even with a sense that
the language has some .... no...   a   redeeming quality.

-michaeln

Re: Who uses Ada??

[cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!uwm.edu!ogicse!u]

Various people write various things about using or choosing Ada,
to which michaeln replied:

!Hmm... yes, I'd be interested to see who uses Ada by choice. I've
!been trying to use it for months now and really trying to keep an
!open mind about it, but I really, honestly haven't been able to
!see any merit in the language whatsoever. 
   [stuff deleted]

I am using Ada to write a subset Fortran-90 compiler.  Why Ada?

For me, there are a couple of factors:  economics and performance.

Economics.  I'm writing a compiler.  I'd like it to be correct, and I'd
like to spend as little time (money) as I can to make it.  It's true
that correct code can be written in any language, but where I have
found Ada shines, is the amount of 'built-in' correctness Ada requires
just to get the program to COMPILE.  The other distant option [for
choice implementation language] is one of the Modula family.  Although
I'm only just beginning to learn about Ada's ability to re-use generic
procedures, I can see already that this will help me crank out a decent
product faster.  (I have done only a few KSLOC of Modula-2, and
generics in Modula strike me as being of the "cross-your-fingers"
variety.  :-)

[ no, gcc -Wall -ansi -pedantic  + lint doesn't give you the 
  same level of rigor as Ada, in my limited experience. ]

Performance.  In the best of all possible worlds, I'd be using a pure
functional language [eg Hope, Haskell]... Unfortunately, I don't know
the functional idiom well enough to use it for major projects, and
compilers for functional languages are relatively rare [an interpreted
F90 compiler would be a bit slow, I'd think].  Someday, I'd like to
learn either Haskell, Hope, or ML, and be able to use these languages
(and the functional programming paradigm) to produce compilers... but
I'm not there yet.

I'm only a student; my experience pales by comparison with most others
who read and post to this group.  Still, I'd like to think my rationale
for choosing Ada is as sound as it is simple:  "Life is too short for
programming reliable applications in C." :-)

[for what it's worth, I'd written small programs (<5KSLOC each) in
 Common Lisp, Scheme, Modula-2, Fortran77, C, J, and Pascal.  Ergo,
 my choice of Ada for the project at hand is based on some (small)
 knowledge of the alternatives.]

Lou.

-- 
Lou Glassy (uesu03@giac1.oscs.montana.edu)   Watch the field behind the plow
Earth Sciences Department                    Turn to straight, dark rows
Montana State University                     Put another season's promise
Bozeman, Montana 59715 USA                   In the ground...  --Stan Rogers

Re: Who uses Ada??

[Bob Kitzberger]

michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au (michaeln) writes:

> Is there an FAQ that might give some clues as to what aspects of Ada
> provide programmers with a sense of freedom

Sorry, folks, software isn't here solely for your mental gymnastics
and personal fulfillment.  I know it sometimes seems that way at
school...

If you want reasons why Ada helps you build reliable, large, nay,
_huge_ software systems, then crack open Booch's Software Engineering
with Ada, or Shumate's Developing Large Real-Time Systems in Ada.

	.Bob.

p.s. Does painting on oil and canvas limit an artist's expressive power,
     or does it provide focus for their expression?  Michaelangelo's
     Sistine Chapel and Chagall's ceiling of the Paris Opera show what
     genius can do when constrained by his medium (i.e. painting on a
     ceiling).  Various works by uncsonstrained contemporary artists
     show what kind of horrid stuff can result when you impose no 
     limitations at all.
     

----------------
Bob Kitzberger          VisiCom Laboratories, Inc.
rlk@visicom.com         10052 Mesa Ridge Court, San Diego CA 92121 USA
                        +1 619 457 2111    FAX +1 619 457 0888

Re: Who uses Ada??

[eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!mcsun!ub4b!sunbim!usenet]

In article 9110003@hpavla.lf.hp.com, hawk@hpavla.lf.hp.com (Dave Hawk) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.191829.22803@csusac.csus.edu> cs13517@athena.ecs.csus.edu
 writes:
>>Who uses Ada because they want to, not
>>because they were told to?
>>
>>Kevin Metcalfe
>
>How about those of us that want to use Ada, but are told to use C?


Or the ones which want to use Ada but they can get only C/C++ for their AMIGA.
Is there any Ada Compiler for AMIGAs ?

Frank