* SIGada Conference @ 2003-12-15 23:01 Chris Miller 2003-12-16 0:29 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Chris Miller @ 2003-12-15 23:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Anyone care to post a summary of what went on at this conference. Anything interesting ??? Chris Miller ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-15 23:01 SIGada Conference Chris Miller @ 2003-12-16 0:29 ` Stephen Leake 2003-12-16 11:19 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-12-16 13:10 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2003-12-16 0:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Miller; +Cc: comp.lang.ada chrismiller677@hotmail.com (Chris Miller) writes: > Anyone care to post a summary of what went on at this conference. > > Anything interesting ??? The most interesting thing was that there are several companies making money using Ada, and they are all growing :). I've been more inspired to look into using SPARK to write solid code. The Ada 200Y features sound fun, too; aggregates for limited types, a solution for mutually recursive types, Java-style interfaces, no more silent overloading when overriding was meant. If you subscribe to Ada Letters, the proceedings should appear in a few months :). -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-16 0:29 ` Stephen Leake @ 2003-12-16 11:19 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-12-17 0:58 ` Stephen Leake 2003-12-16 13:10 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-12-16 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote: : : The Ada 200Y features sound fun, too; aggregates for limited types, a : solution for mutually recursive types, Java-style interfaces, no more : silent overloading when overriding was meant. Anything new about pre/post conditions? -- Georg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-16 11:19 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-12-17 0:58 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2003-12-17 0:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Georg Bauhaus; +Cc: comp.lang.ada Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> writes: > Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote: > : > : The Ada 200Y features sound fun, too; aggregates for limited types, a > : solution for mutually recursive types, Java-style interfaces, no more > : silent overloading when overriding was meant. > > Anything new about pre/post conditions? Nope. I think 'pragma Assert' will be standardized, but that's about it. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-16 0:29 ` Stephen Leake 2003-12-16 11:19 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-12-16 13:10 ` Marin David Condic 2003-12-16 18:27 ` Ada Job Market, Was: " Simon Clubley 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2003-12-16 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) That can easily be misleading. Its possible that some companies are growing by getting a larger share of a shrinking pie. As some companies abandon Ada as a business venture, others pick up whatever share they may have had and show signs of "Growth" - but it doesn't imply Ada is necessarily doing well. I'd like to see Ada get somewhere, but there needs to be a better metric than the business growth of some few companies. Jobs in Ada, new project starts in Ada, classes taught in Ada, etc. Any of those would be a beter metric - unless you could get total revenues for all companies doing Ada business (and even that would miss use of Ada in internal work by big companies like Boeing, Lockheed, etc.) In any event, its tough to get those metrics so we're still left with perceptions and best guesses. My perception is that Ada has been in general on the decline and had better do something to excite the world if it wants to be around with any real strength in another ten years. MDC Stephen Leake wrote: > > The most interesting thing was that there are several companies making > money using Ada, and they are all growing :). > -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm Send Replies To: m o d c @ a m o g c n i c . r "Trying is the first step towards failure." -- Homer Simpson ====================================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-16 13:10 ` Marin David Condic @ 2003-12-16 18:27 ` Simon Clubley 2003-12-17 13:35 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Simon Clubley @ 2003-12-16 18:27 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <3FDF0457.70601@noplace.com>, Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com> writes: > > I'd like to see Ada get somewhere, but there needs to be a better metric > than the business growth of some few companies. Jobs in Ada, new project > starts in Ada, classes taught in Ada, etc. > If you have a copy of Dr Dobb's Journal for October 2003, have a look at page 52. The author has done an analysis of job offers for the period July 2002 to June 2003 that specified programming language requirements. I won't post the table (because I'm not sure what the copyright issues are, and anyway it's a detailed table), but the author's table claims[1] that Ada is running around the 5% mark (+/- 1%) for much of that period. It was interesting to note however that it increased a couple of percent in May/June 2003. For comparison C++ is running at around the 50% (+/- several %) mark, and Pascal is running at around 0.2%. Simon. [1] I use "claims" because I am finding it hard to believe that 5% of all programming jobs specify Ada, however nice that would be. My viewpoint here may be tainted by the fact that I am in the UK, and closer to 0% appears to be a more accurate figure here. [Fortunately, my interest in Ada is more of a personal interest...] -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP SCO: Proudly pushing Microsoft down to #2 on the list of most disliked companies ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-16 18:27 ` Ada Job Market, Was: " Simon Clubley @ 2003-12-17 13:35 ` Marin David Condic 2003-12-17 19:16 ` tmoran 2003-12-18 4:49 ` Steve 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2003-12-17 13:35 UTC (permalink / raw) My gut reaction based on prior searches of Monster, et alia, would make 5% sound optimistic. It would also likely be *very* location sensitive since Ada has traditionally been employed largely with defense contractors and they're not spread across the U.S. evenly like peanut butter. But assume for a moment that this is true. C++ gets 50% and Ada gets 5%. Students exiting college are going to be looking for jobs. What skill set will they likely want to have in order to face that market? When companies start development of software related tools, will they be looking to satisfy the 5% market or the 50% market? This has the potential to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, so one should not look at it as doom and gloom, but rather as a warning. Unless Ada starts getting bigger numbers, all the incentives are to go with something else. People will go with a niche language if they think it is on the way *UP*, but not if it appears to be on the way *DOWN*. Hence, Ada needs to do something to excite the potential user community and create the impression of going somewhere *new* so it starts a "get on board" trend. MDC Simon Clubley wrote: > > > If you have a copy of Dr Dobb's Journal for October 2003, have a look at > page 52. > > The author has done an analysis of job offers for the period July 2002 to > June 2003 that specified programming language requirements. > > I won't post the table (because I'm not sure what the copyright issues are, > and anyway it's a detailed table), but the author's table claims[1] that Ada > is running around the 5% mark (+/- 1%) for much of that period. > > It was interesting to note however that it increased a couple of percent > in May/June 2003. > > For comparison C++ is running at around the 50% (+/- several %) mark, and > Pascal is running at around 0.2%. > > Simon. > > [1] I use "claims" because I am finding it hard to believe that 5% of all > programming jobs specify Ada, however nice that would be. My viewpoint here > may be tainted by the fact that I am in the UK, and closer to 0% appears to > be a more accurate figure here. [Fortunately, my interest in Ada is more of > a personal interest...] > -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm Send Replies To: m o d c @ a m o g c n i c . r "Trying is the first step towards failure." -- Homer Simpson ====================================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-17 13:35 ` Marin David Condic @ 2003-12-17 19:16 ` tmoran 2003-12-18 4:49 ` Steve 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2003-12-17 19:16 UTC (permalink / raw) > But assume for a moment that this is true. C++ gets 50% and Ada gets 5%. > Students exiting college are going to be looking for jobs. What skill > set will they likely want to have in order to face that market? When all C++ work is done in Bangalore, Ada could inherit the US programming market. ;) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-17 13:35 ` Marin David Condic 2003-12-17 19:16 ` tmoran @ 2003-12-18 4:49 ` Steve 2003-12-18 13:10 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Steve @ 2003-12-18 4:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Do you realize you're trashing the language with your statements? Taking news that might be encouraging to Ada enthusiasts (the people you're likely to find on this group) and saying it's garbage. It doesn't help. Steve (The Duck) "Marin David Condic" <nobody@noplace.com> wrote in message news:3FE05B88.1070701@noplace.com... > My gut reaction based on prior searches of Monster, et alia, would make > 5% sound optimistic. It would also likely be *very* location sensitive > since Ada has traditionally been employed largely with defense > contractors and they're not spread across the U.S. evenly like peanut > butter. > > But assume for a moment that this is true. C++ gets 50% and Ada gets 5%. > Students exiting college are going to be looking for jobs. What skill > set will they likely want to have in order to face that market? When > companies start development of software related tools, will they be > looking to satisfy the 5% market or the 50% market? > > This has the potential to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, so one should > not look at it as doom and gloom, but rather as a warning. Unless Ada > starts getting bigger numbers, all the incentives are to go with > something else. People will go with a niche language if they think it is > on the way *UP*, but not if it appears to be on the way *DOWN*. Hence, > Ada needs to do something to excite the potential user community and > create the impression of going somewhere *new* so it starts a "get on > board" trend. > > MDC > > Simon Clubley wrote: > > > > > > If you have a copy of Dr Dobb's Journal for October 2003, have a look at > > page 52. > > > > The author has done an analysis of job offers for the period July 2002 to > > June 2003 that specified programming language requirements. > > > > I won't post the table (because I'm not sure what the copyright issues are, > > and anyway it's a detailed table), but the author's table claims[1] that Ada > > is running around the 5% mark (+/- 1%) for much of that period. > > > > It was interesting to note however that it increased a couple of percent > > in May/June 2003. > > > > For comparison C++ is running at around the 50% (+/- several %) mark, and > > Pascal is running at around 0.2%. > > > > Simon. > > > > [1] I use "claims" because I am finding it hard to believe that 5% of all > > programming jobs specify Ada, however nice that would be. My viewpoint here > > may be tainted by the fact that I am in the UK, and closer to 0% appears to > > be a more accurate figure here. [Fortunately, my interest in Ada is more of > > a personal interest...] > > > > > -- > ====================================================================== > Marin David Condic > I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ > My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm > > Send Replies To: m o d c @ a m o g > c n i c . r > > "Trying is the first step towards failure." > -- Homer Simpson > > ====================================================================== > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference 2003-12-18 4:49 ` Steve @ 2003-12-18 13:10 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2003-12-18 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) We will not help Ada by deluding ourselves into thinking everything is just fine. Seeing a handful of companies experiencing some growth - while good for those companies - doesn't imply that Ada is on a nice, healthy, upward spiral. If we want to live in a rainbow, gumdrop, pastel unicorn, sugar-sweet, fairy-story land, then we can believe that Ada is doing just great and will be around and growing for years to come and nothing really needs to be done. OTOH, we could get serious about what is happening in industry and understand that the bulk of the software population sees Ada as something old and beyond its useful life and not to be taken seriously for the future. Given that understanding of reality, we might want to *save* Ada by doing something that would create a "New and Revitalized" impression of the language. Give Ada some major new capabilities that might actually reverse that impression people have of it being over the hill. MDC Steve wrote: > Do you realize you're trashing the language with your statements? > Taking news that might be encouraging to Ada enthusiasts (the people you're > likely to find on this group) and saying it's garbage. It doesn't help. > > Steve > (The Duck) > -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm Send Replies To: m o d c @ a m o g c n i c . r "Trying is the first step towards failure." -- Homer Simpson ====================================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-12-18 13:10 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2003-12-15 23:01 SIGada Conference Chris Miller 2003-12-16 0:29 ` Stephen Leake 2003-12-16 11:19 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-12-17 0:58 ` Stephen Leake 2003-12-16 13:10 ` Marin David Condic 2003-12-16 18:27 ` Ada Job Market, Was: " Simon Clubley 2003-12-17 13:35 ` Marin David Condic 2003-12-17 19:16 ` tmoran 2003-12-18 4:49 ` Steve 2003-12-18 13:10 ` Marin David Condic
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox