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From: jsa@alexandria (Jon S Anthony)
Subject: Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract
Date: 1997/03/28
Date: 1997-03-28T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <JSA.97Mar28141901@alexandria> (raw)
In-Reply-To: tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com


In article <slrn5jmbhv.7k9.kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> kennel@nospam.lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)) writes:

> :Ada _has_ assertions.  Their form is not of the same syntactical look
> :as Eiffel's.  So what?  They take the form of constraints, in
> :particular (wrt to the case at hand) subtype constraints.  They are
> :_not_ as flexible or full "featured" as Eiffel's but they are
> :certainly there and in the Ariane case, they are every bit as capable
> :as Eiffel's.  
> 
> Of course static type constraints are a form of 'precondition', namely
> "the object being referred to by this reference, or in this variable is
>  one of these types".
> 
> By that measure C++, C, and Pascal, and maybe even Fortran have assertions. 

Yes, I would agree with that.  Also note that while subtypes are
indeed "primitive" in comparison to Eiffel capabilities, their limits
can be (and often are) computed at runtime.  For example:

    subtype Current_Constraint is integer range Current_Min .. Current_Max;

where both Current_Min and Current_Max are functions.


> It is often useful and powerful to program in a style in a
> statically typed language where important information is encoded
> into types, but this is not a full substitute for Eiffel's
> additional capabilities.

Absolutely agreed.


> Whether or not it would have done so in the rocket crash is another
> story.

Check.  The main thing to note in regards to this point is that

  a) the sort of assertion capability called out in the M&J paper
which supposedly could have helped is nothing more (or less) than an
Ada subtype constraint.

  b) the practitioners knew all about this capability and even used
it in places.

  c) the particular case in point was _proven_ to be not possible
_within_ the contextual environment intended for the use of the
component.

  d) given c) there is no good reason (no reason even) to include such
an assertion and in fact very good reasons to _not_ include it.

  e) for those who think d) is dumb, please note that this sort of
thing is standard practice in _real_ engineering - lest nothing would
be buildable and/or useable.

To draw an analogy, someone who is designing a wing notes that the
context of its use will be that of standard A to B general aviation
flights.  The context also requires all sorts of practical things like
weight limits, cost limits, etc. for the sort of use it will have.
Now, such an environment does not require unlimited style acrobatic
flight or some such.  Nor does it assume that the pilots will
intentionally fly into category 6 thunderstorms.  The G loads of the
environment are will within limit loads of +3 and -1 (ultimate loads
of +4 and -2).

Now, under such circumstance why would the designer require that the
wing shall meet limit loads of +10/-10?  The attitude of some people
here seems to be "of course it should be built with such capability -
some fool _might_ try to fly acro with the plane it is on or maybe go
into such storms".  But that's not the context of use and in the
intended area of use, the cost of such a thing will be much more than
another perfectly suitable wing with the appropriate assumed limits.
It will likely be much heavier as well, and with less usable space for
fuel cells.  This would reduce practical useful load and range in any
airplane using it.  What's more, it is always possible that someone
would exceed +10/-10 as well.  So where do you stop?

Now, where is this sort of contextual information in such real
engineering designs?  In the "code" - i.e., actual example?  No way.
That's way to easy to miss.  It's in the associated specifications,
blueprints, and documentation - including all the way down to the user
(pilot operating handbook).

/Jon
-- 
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com





  parent reply	other threads:[~1997-03-28  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 254+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1997-03-15  0:00 Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18  0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Chris Brand
1997-03-23  0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
     [not found] ` <tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-16  0:00   ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Richard Irvine
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-21  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-25  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Trust but verify " Robert S. White
1997-03-25  0:00                   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-26  0:00                     ` Robb Nebbe
1997-03-27  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-28  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-07  0:00                           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-03-31  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` the one and only real true kibo
     [not found]         ` <199703190839.JAA02652@stormbringer.irisa.fr>
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Please do not start a language war " Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Roger T.
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Robert S. White
1997-03-20  0:00               ` John L. Ahrens
1997-03-20  0:00               ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Wolfgang Gellerich
     [not found]       ` <tz8913l930b.fsf_-_@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Gavin Collings
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war Roedy Green
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Please do not start a language war (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Kent Tong
1997-03-20  0:00       ` Ranan Fraer
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-18  0:00         ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24  0:00           ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31  0:00               ` Jan Galkowski
1997-03-31  0:00               ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-02  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Jonathan Egre'
1997-04-06  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-06  0:00                       ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Derek Clarke
1997-03-31  0:00             ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-01  0:00             ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-02  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00         ` John the Hamster
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00             ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Fergus Henderson
     [not found]     ` <tz8g1xtzx9y.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18  0:00           ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00           ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-19  0:00             ` Programming language fanaticism! Louis Bastarache
1997-03-20  0:00               ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24  0:00               ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-29  0:00                   ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-27  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` Nick S Bensema
1997-03-30  0:00                       ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-21  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-21  0:00               ` William Clodius
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` William Clodius
1997-03-22  0:00               ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-22  0:00                 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23  0:00                     ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24  0:00                   ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24  0:00                   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23  0:00               ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Anders Pytte
     [not found]                 ` <3335BC24.13728473@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-01  0:00                         ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00               ` John Hogg
1997-03-24  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-26  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]                     ` <E7ox17.MKx@syd.csa.com.au>
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Laurent Moussault
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18  0:00     ` John McCabe
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Ray McVay
1997-03-27  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-29  0:00           ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-30  0:00             ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-06  0:00             ` Doctorb
1997-04-08  0:00         ` Ron Crocker
1997-04-11  0:00           ` Richard Riehle
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Enrico Facchin - Sartori E.T.
1997-03-19  0:00       ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-17  0:00   ` John McCabe
     [not found]     ` <tz8n2s1hrdc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-20  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-20  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-20  0:00           ` John McCabe
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Niall Cooling
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Gavin Collings
1997-03-27  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04  0:00                       ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-06  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-07  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-09  0:00                           ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Chris Beer
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03  0:00                 ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00           ` Thomas Beale
1997-03-26  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-21  0:00       ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-22  0:00     ` Nigel Tzeng
1997-03-23  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00     ` Eric M. Boyd
1997-03-19  0:00       ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
     [not found]       ` <3345cd60.2092398@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
1997-04-03  0:00         ` Ariane-5 crash , Eiffel and Ada Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-04-03  0:00         ` Nick Leaton
1997-04-08  0:00         ` AdaWorks
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Tarjei Jensen
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00     ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-21  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-22  0:00         ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21  0:00       ` Frank Manning
1997-03-21  0:00         ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-23  0:00           ` Frank Manning
1997-03-25  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00         ` Design by Contract in C++ (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Anders Pytte
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23  0:00     ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
     [not found]   ` <tz8sp1qiywm.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-21  0:00     ` ae59
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Stuart Yeates
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28  0:00     ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00     ` Dale Stanbrough
     [not found]       ` <3335E18E.33590565@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23  0:00         ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00           ` William Grosso
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Brad Appleton
1997-03-24  0:00             ` William Clodius
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00     ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert Dewar
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Manners (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25  0:00         ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-22  0:00     ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-23  0:00       ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-24  0:00         ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24  0:00           ` Simulating Eiffel-style assertions (was: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-25  0:00               ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-25  0:00                 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-31  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-26  0:00             ` Alan Brain
1997-03-26  0:00               ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-29  0:00                 ` How old time languages survive EJon
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Robb Nebbe
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) William Clodius
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-27  0:00     ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-31  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-06  0:00         ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-25  0:00   ` David Starr
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-27  0:00   ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony [this message]
1997-03-28  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-31  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1997-03-17  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-20  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-25  0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-03-24  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-27  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-04-03  0:00 Adrian B.Y. Hoe
1997-04-05  0:00 ` Nick Roberts
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