From: jsa@alexandria (Jon S Anthony)
Subject: Re: Please do not start a language war (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract
Date: 1997/03/17
Date: 1997-03-17T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <JSA.97Mar17180249@alexandria> (raw)
In-Reply-To: tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com
In article <5giu3p$beb$1@news.irisa.fr> jezequel@irisa.fr (Jean-Marc Jezequel) writes:
> In article <dewar.858568071@merv>, dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar) writes:
> >Thomas says
> >
> ><<In that note you essentially argue that if only the Ariane 5 software
> >had used Eiffel preconditions, the rocket would not have crashed.
> >You suggest a precondition of the form:>>
> >
> >Indeed .. anyone can argue that their favorite language, if used properly,
> >would have avoided the Ariane 5 bug. That's true even for assembly language.
> >
> >The fact of the matter is that this bug was a result of the approach
> >used, and had nothing to do with the particular language chosen. Indeed
> >the Ariane 5 crash serves as a useful reminder that Ada is not some magic
> >panacea that prevents incompetent design and implementation!
>
> I agree with Robert Dewar. Please do not start a language war! It
Agreed. That sort of moronicy is the _last_ thing we need.
> is made crystal clear in the paper that
> *THIS IS NOT A LANGUAGE PROBLEM*
> let me repeat it in case it is not clear:
> *THIS IS NOT A LANGUAGE PROBLEM*
Exactly. And this has been discussed to death and the same
conclusions reached several times.
> The all point of the paper is that Design by Contract helps in the
> precise specification of components: signatures (a la CORBA) are not
> enough to specify a behavior, pre- and post conditions are needed to
> give more details.
Yes, CORBA style interface specifications are no help here whatsoever.
None. Zero. The problem revolves around explicitly capturing the
semantic context of the "components" so that (re)usage of them will
not go beyond that prescribed scope. This is non trivial and NO,
repeat NO, programming language currently has more than the most
primitive support for even the most rudimentary aspects required for
this. While certainly better than nothing, pre and post conditions
should be seen as merely an example of such rudimentary capability.
> I'm willing to discuss this last point, but I will not answer any
> language issue in this thread.
Seems reasonable to me.
/Jon
--
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1997-03-17 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 247+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1997-03-15 0:00 Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Chris Brand
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
[not found] ` <tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-16 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Trust but verify " Robert S. White
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robb Nebbe
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-07 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
[not found] ` <199703190839.JAA02652@stormbringer.irisa.fr>
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war " Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John L. Ahrens
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Wolfgang Gellerich
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Roger T.
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <tz8913l930b.fsf_-_@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Gavin Collings
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war Roedy Green
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Richard Irvine
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Enrico Facchin - Sartori E.T.
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-17 0:00 ` John McCabe
[not found] ` <tz8n2s1hrdc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Niall Cooling
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-07 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-09 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Chris Beer
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Thomas Beale
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Nigel Tzeng
1997-03-23 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony [this message]
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Kent Tong
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Ranan Fraer
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ray McVay
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-30 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Doctorb
1997-04-08 0:00 ` Ron Crocker
1997-04-11 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
[not found] ` <tz8g1xtzx9y.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Programming language fanaticism! Louis Bastarache
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-27 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Nick S Bensema
1997-03-30 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-21 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24 0:00 ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Anders Pytte
[not found] ` <3335BC24.13728473@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-01 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <E7ox17.MKx@syd.csa.com.au>
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` John Hogg
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Laurent Moussault
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-18 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Jan Galkowski
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Jonathan Egre'
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-01 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-02 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John the Hamster
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Eric M. Boyd
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
[not found] ` <3345cd60.2092398@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Ariane-5 crash , Eiffel and Ada Nick Leaton
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-04-08 0:00 ` AdaWorks
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Tarjei Jensen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Design by Contract in C++ (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Anders Pytte
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
[not found] ` <tz8sp1qiywm.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-21 0:00 ` ae59
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough
[not found] ` <3335E18E.33590565@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23 0:00 ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` William Grosso
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Brad Appleton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert Dewar
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Manners (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Simulating Eiffel-style assertions (was: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Alan Brain
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-29 0:00 ` How old time languages survive EJon
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Stuart Yeates
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robb Nebbe
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-25 0:00 ` David Starr
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
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