Re: "That's the way the market is going"

Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Peter Hermann]

Marc A. Criley (mcriley@keystonenet.com) wrote:

: But Ada is not where the market is going...

Look at our live/society the Monty Python way:
Why should there be any reason that mankind should make progress?
Don't worry, be happy  :-)

--
Peter Hermann  Tel:+49-711-685-3611 Fax:3758 ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
Pfaffenwaldring 27, 70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <5j12pb$ck6$1@venus.keystonenet.com>, mcriley@keystonenet.com (Marc A. Criley) writes:

> But Ada is not where the market is going...

Doing anything other than what your competitors do is called
"differentiation" and provided it makes your products better
while it makes them stand out from the crowd, it is considered
"good" in management circles.

> Marc A. Criley
> Chief Software Architect
> Rather Significant Aerospace Company, Inc.

...although in your industry using Ada might not be a
significant differentiator.

> But Ada is not where the market is going...

Ask them which is more important:

	o Using exactly the same tools as the rest of "the market"

	o Avoiding defects

If the former, I hope you don't make commercial airliners.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Devon Prichard]

Marc A. Criley wrote:
> 
> Advocates of dropping Ada and moving to C++ often cite "That's the way the
> market is going" as sufficient reason to do so, at least where I'm working.

before you follow the crowd, check yourself in the mirror to make
sure you're not a lemming...

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | Devon Prichard                 The first 90% of the work takes 90% of
the|
 | Lockheed Eng. & Sciences Co.   time.  The last 10% of the work takes
the |
 | prichard@rotari.larc.nasa.gov  other 90% of the
time.                    |

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Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Robert Dewar]

i<<Advocates of dropping Ada and moving to C++ often cite "That's the way the
market is going" as sufficient reason to do so, at least where I'm working.
How does one effectively rebut that?  These individuals concede the technical
superiority of Ada, and that there are life cycle benefits to Ada, especially
on weapon control systems, i.e., warfighting systems.  Yet, because the market
is going to C++, that is sufficient cause for us to now do the same.>>

Hmm! better move fast, if following the market is what motivates you, you
have to move fast, if you don't jump on the C++ bandwagon fast, you might
find that it is empty when you get there and everyone has jumped ship to
the Java bandwagon.

Of course if the market direction were really what calls the shots, you
should be writing all your software using Visual Basic, which far overwhelms
C in the market place!

Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Ed Falis]

 Marc A. Criley wrote in article <5j12pb$ck6$1@venus.keystonenet.com>...
>Advocates of dropping Ada and moving to C++ often cite "That's the way
the
>market is going" as sufficient reason to do so, at least where I'm
working.
>How does one effectively rebut that?  These individuals concede the
technical
>superiority of Ada, and that there are life cycle benefits to Ada,
especially
>on weapon control systems, i.e., warfighting systems.  Yet, because the
market
>is going to C++, that is sufficient cause for us to now do the same.
>
>It's very frustrating, especially as the project I'm leading is quite
>effectively demonstrating the capability, productivity, and effectiveness
>of Ada (and this is still Ada 83!).
>
>But Ada is not where the market is going...


Except that it seems that a fair part of the market is jumping off the C++
wagon to the more Ada-like Java wagon even as these guys are trying to go
to C++.

Ah the emporer's new clothes!

Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Jon S Anthony]

In article <dewar.861231283@merv> dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar) writes:

> John said
> 
> <<<<Contrary to the lemming hearted hoards,  C++ is out, Java is in.  These
>...
> expertice.  Often the choice of language is more a matter of psychology
> than technology.>>
> 
> If this is true, it just goes to show, in a rather dramatic manner, tha
> the issue of what language is "in" or "out" has very little to do with
> what language is usable or desirable in what situation.

Absolutely.  I would have thought that this is general knowledge.


> The fact of the matter is that we still do not have a clear
> demonstration that it is possible to write large scale software in
> Java with the available tools. The Corel demo is hardly convincing!

I can vouch for this from both first hand experience and direct second
hand information...  Things are very unstable in Java land at the
moment.  What with the AWT maybe being junked and redone altogether,
among other things, the situation is like tring to get a grip on a
handful of mercury.

/Jon

-- 
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com

Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Robert Dewar]

Tom Moran said

<<In terms of number of applications, surely 'the market' is going to
spreadsheet programming. ;) Or were you thinking of a different market?>>

Well that answer seems facetious. Surely the guy was only interested in
serious applications programming, so he must have been thinking of Visual
Basic!

:-) :-)

Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Nick Roberts]

Jon S Anthony <jsa@alexandria> wrote in article
<JSA.97Apr17145341@alexandria>...
> I can vouch for this from both first hand experience and direct second
> hand information...  Things are very unstable in Java land at the
> moment.  What with the AWT maybe being junked and redone altogether,
> among other things, the situation is like tring to get a grip on a
> handful of mercury.


And then when Java starts settling down and getting stable, the 'in' thing
will be ActiveX (or whatever) and Java will be 'out'. As stated in
different ways in this thread, successful companies don't get to be
successful by "going the way the market's going".

Nick.

Re: "That's the way the market is going"

[Richard Riehle]

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Marc A. Criley wrote:

> Advocates of dropping Ada and moving to C++ often cite "That's the way the
> market is going" as sufficient reason to do so, at least where I'm working.
> How does one effectively rebut that?  These individuals concede the technical
> superiority of Ada, and that there are life cycle benefits to Ada, especially
> on weapon control systems, i.e., warfighting systems.  Yet, because the market
> is going to C++, that is sufficient cause for us to now do the same.

  I attend a few computer conferences each year.  Recently, I hear more
  and more grumbling about the vagaries of C++.  The growing discontent
  with C++ is one reason for the rush to Java.  

  Those in the warfighting software business who believe they can do
  better with C++ simply do not understand C++.  Usually they are more
  swayed by the seeming popularity of C++ rather than by its technical
  merits.  

  The one good argument in favor of C++ is the availability of development
  and debugging tools for the language.  Software publishers see the
  popularity of the language so that is where they put their own
  development dollars.  However, even this is misleading.  C++ is
  the peanut brittle of programming languages, and just as peanut
  brittle tastes sweet but rots your teeth, so does C++ feel good, but
  introduces future decay into your software. For that reason, most of
  the tools for C++ are designed to prevent "tooth decay" from 
  run-away pointers, etc.  A smaller number are specifically designed
  to assist the software engineering process.

  C++ also looks good on the resume.  Managers of weapons development need
  to be vigilant about such things.  The mission is to produce the most
  effective warfighting software in the world, not to satisfy someone's
  need to spruce-up their resume.  So far, no language surpasses Ada in
  fulfilling that mission.  And C++ does not come close.

  Richard Riehle


       Ada!  When failure is not an option.