* LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application)
@ 1996-11-07 0:00 F. Britt Snodgrass
1996-11-07 0:00 ` Dale Pontius
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: F. Britt Snodgrass @ 1996-11-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: britt
Samuel Tardieu <sam@hacker.org> wrote:
>>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Maffei <ramaffei@cedar-rapids.net> writes:
>
>Richard> A non-GNAT solution is preferred to avoid any potential
>Richard> restrictions/requirements associated with the commercial
>Richard> release of software containing GNU libraries.
>
>Richard,
>
>I really cannot understand this sentence: the GNU licence does concern
>you *only* if you want to redistribute a modified *compiler*, that is
>if your project is to produce and give away (sell ?) an Ada compiler
>(which I guess isn't, since you mention real-time) and choose to
>modify GNAT, then you have to distribute the sources as well and
>respect the licence.
>
>But if you use GNAT for development as a compiler, then it doesn't add
>any restriction or requirement compared to other compilers! I think
>you should take some time and read the General Public Licence which is
>distributed with GNAT.
>
>I know of several companies that use GNAT for developping commercial
>applications and sell these applications without any restriction.
>
> Sam, happy user of GNAT
>--
> Samuel Tardieu -- sam@hacker.org
Perhaps Richard's comment was made precisely because he has read the
GNU Library General Public License (LGPL) that covers GNAT's libraries.
The LGPL makes no distinction between compilers and any other type of
executable program that has LGPL'd libraries linked in. I assume that
the bodies of GNAT's standard Ada packages contain such library code.
As I read it, the LGPL says I have to either (1) provide all my object
code to my customers so that they may relink my program with a
newer/modified version of the LGPL'd libraries or (2) explictly allow
them to reverse engineer my program for the purpose of modifying it.
The complete LGPL is in the copying.lib file distributed with GNAT
or may be obtained from http://www.delorie.com/dl/prep/COPYING-LIB-2.0.
For reference, I quote Section 6 here:
LGPL> "6. As an exception to the Sections above, you may also compile or
LGPL> link a "work that uses the Library" with the Library to produce a
LGPL> work containing portions of the Library, and distribute that work
LGPL> under terms of your choice, provided that the terms permit
LGPL> modification of the work for the customer's own use and reverse
LGPL> engineering for debugging such modifications.
LGPL>
LGPL> You must give prominent notice with each copy of the work that the
LGPL> Library is used in it and that the Library and its use are covered by
LGPL> this License. You must supply a copy of this License. If the work
LGPL> during execution displays copyright notices, you must include the
LGPL> copyright notice for the Library among them, as well as a reference
LGPL> directing the user to the copy of this License. Also, you must do one
LGPL> of these things:
LGPL>
LGPL> a) Accompany the work with the complete corresponding
LGPL> machine-readable source code for the Library including whatever
LGPL> changes were used in the work (which must be distributed under
LGPL> Sections 1 and 2 aboveArticle Unavailable
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-07 0:00 LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) F. Britt Snodgrass @ 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Dale Pontius 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Samuel Tardieu 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Dale Pontius @ 1996-11-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <55rs5t$2a3@nw101.infi.net>, "F. Britt Snodgrass" <ada95@fyiowa.infi.net> writes: >... >Perhaps Richard's comment was made precisely because he has read the >GNU Library General Public License (LGPL) that covers GNAT's libraries. >The LGPL makes no distinction between compilers and any other type of >executable program that has LGPL'd libraries linked in. I assume that >the bodies of GNAT's standard Ada packages contain such library code. >As I read it, the LGPL says I have to either (1) provide all my object >code to my customers so that they may relink my program with a >newer/modified version of the LGPL'd libraries or (2) explictly allow >them to reverse engineer my program for the purpose of modifying it. >... >Now if it is my business to write embedded software for video games machines >and/or nuclear reactor control systems, I could reasonably view the LGPL >requirements as both an annoyance and as a product safety risk. While I >understand and appreciate the spirit of free software, I may not want my >customers to have the ability to reverse engineer and modify software embedded >in the products I sell. > >I would be happy to have someone convince me I'm reading too much into the LGPL >but it seems pretty clear to me. As much as I like GNAT, using it to develop >embedded software for a non-free commercial product seems to levy additional >requirements compared to using a non-free Ada compiler. Am I wrong? > Would this be solved if dynamic linking were used? The GNAT runtime could be kept in a completely separate file which could be replaced at will without touching your code. That way there would be no need to reverse engineer your code. In practice this would end up looking like DOS4GW programs. The main program becomes DOS4GW.EXE, and it dynamically loads and executes your program. Otherwise you would need to have the dynamic loading part of GNAT embedded in your code, and the same problems come back. If you're concerned about 'one file', use binary concatenation. The GNAT loader/ library program looks 'after itself' to find the start of your code. You could supply a simple strip/combine utility and you're done. Dale Pontius (NOT speaking for IBM) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Dale Pontius @ 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Dale Pontius says "Would this be solved if dynamic linking were used? The GNAT runtime could be kept in a completely separate file which could be replaced at will without touching your code. That way there would be no need to reverse engineer your code." No, this would not solve anything, but then as I trust previous posts have made clear there was no problem that needed a solution in the first place! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-07 0:00 LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) F. Britt Snodgrass 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Dale Pontius @ 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Samuel Tardieu 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Samuel Tardieu @ 1996-11-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: F. Britt Snodgrass >>>>> "F" == F Britt Snodgrass <ada95@fyiowa.infi.net> writes: F> Perhaps Richard's comment was made precisely because he has read F> the GNU Library General Public License (LGPL) that covers GNAT's F> libraries. GNAT's libraries covered by the LGPL ? Where did you read this ? F> I would be happy to have someone convince me I'm reading too much F> into the LGPL but it seems pretty clear to me. As much as I like F> GNAT, using it to develop embedded software for a non-free F> commercial product seems to levy additional requirements compared F> to using a non-free Ada compiler. Am I wrong? Well, let's take a GNAT library file: Ada.Text_IO (body) for example. The copyright that is written in it reads: -- GNAT is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under -- -- terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Soft- -- -- ware Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option) any later ver- -- -- sion. GNAT is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITH- -- -- OUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY -- -- or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License -- -- for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General -- -- Public License distributed with GNAT; see file COPYING. If not, write -- -- to the Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, -- -- MA 02111-1307, USA. -- -- -- -- As a special exception, if other files instantiate generics from this -- -- unit, or you link this unit with other files to produce an executable, -- -- this unit does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be -- -- covered by the GNU General Public License. This exception does not -- -- however invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be -- -- covered by the GNU Public License. -- Note the "As a special exception ..." paragraph ! Also note that the LGPL isn't mentionned anywhere in this notice ! Sam -- Samuel Tardieu -- sam@ada.eu.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-07 0:00 LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) F. Britt Snodgrass 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Dale Pontius 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Samuel Tardieu @ 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 1996-11-08 0:00 ` F. Britt Snodgrass 2 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) F. Britt Snodgrass says >Perhaps Richard's comment was made precisely because he has read the >GNU Library General Public License (LGPL) that covers GNAT's libraries. This is confused, that is not the way GNAT's libraries are distributed. It always amazes me that people run off on such irrelevant arguments without even bothering to look! >The LGPL makes no distinction between compilers and any other type of All discussion of the LGPL is irrelevant to GNAT! >I would be happy to have someone convince me I'm reading too much into >the LGPL but it seems pretty clear to me. As much as I like GNAT, using >it to develop embedded software for a non-free commercial product seems >to levy additional requirements compared to using a non-free Ada compiler. >Am I wrong? Yes, completely wrong. You are in fact also misreading the LGPL, but since it is irrelevant to GNAT, there is no point in persuing it. For reference, here is the license used on GNAT runtime components: -- GNAT is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under -- -- terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Soft- -- -- ware Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option) any later ver- -- -- sion. GNAT is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITH- -- -- OUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY -- -- or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License -- -- for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General -- -- Public License distributed with GNAT; see file COPYING. If not, write -- -- to the Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, -- -- MA 02111-1307, USA. -- -- -- -- As a special exception, if other files instantiate generics from this -- -- unit, or you link this unit with other files to produce an executable, -- -- this unit does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be -- -- covered by the GNU General Public License. This exception does not -- -- however invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be -- -- covered by the GNU Public License. -- As you can see from this there are no additional requirements compared to using a non-free Ada compiler. You can build proprietary products, embedded gizmos, or classified software using GNAT with no problems whatsoever in this department. A lot of people have an interest in spreading FUD on this point, so let's try to keep things clear here. In particular, please READ the licenses that apply, not ones that don't! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 1996-11-08 0:00 ` F. Britt Snodgrass 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Jon S Anthony @ 1996-11-08 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <55ufo9$2ar@nw101.infi.net> "F. Britt Snodgrass" <ada95@fyiowa.infi.net> writes: > or g77. While I now understand that GNAT may be used to produce > propriatary,for-profit executables, the last sentence of the special > exception warns me to do so very carefully. Not to worry. The last sentence merely means that if you are (would be) already covered by GPL (say you decide to use the SA of GNAT for some reason), and you include/link-in the library, the special exception does not mean that you now free of GPL. /Jon -- Jon Anthony Organon Motives, Inc. Belmont, MA 02178 617.484.3383 jsa@organon.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony @ 1996-11-08 0:00 ` F. Britt Snodgrass 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Richard Kenner 1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: F. Britt Snodgrass @ 1996-11-08 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar) wrote: > > [snip] > > All discussion of the LGPL is irrelevant to GNAT! > > [snip] >-- -- >-- As a special exception, if other files instantiate generics from this -- >-- unit, or you link this unit with other files to produce an executable, -- >-- this unit does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be -- >-- covered by the GNU General Public License. This exception does not -- >-- however invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be -- >-- covered by the GNU Public License. -- > >As you can see from this there are no additional requirements compared to >using a non-free Ada compiler. You can build proprietary products, embedded >gizmos, or classified software using GNAT with no problems whatsoever in >this department. > >A lot of people have an interest in spreading FUD on this point, so let's >try to keep things clear here. In particular, please READ the licenses that >apply, not ones that don't! > Thank you and others who have corrected my misunderstanding of GNAT's license. I had assumed that since the file "copying.lib" is distributed with GNAT, it's requirements must apply to GNAT's libraries. I did not think to look at the file headers because I wasn't aware that "special exceptions" to the GPL were permitted. I work for a large corporation which currently discourages the use of GNU software. The company lawyers have read the GPL and LGPL and are nervous that we might unknowingly incorporate GPL'd software into a product and then have customers requesting "our" software under the terms of the GPL. I am trying to get this no-GNU policy changed. I need to understand how GNAT's GPL license may or may not differ from that of plain gcc or g77. While I now understand that GNAT may be used to produce propriatary,for-profit executables, the last sentence of the special exception warns me to do so very carefully. Thanks, F. Britt Snodgrass (Team Ada, ada95@fyiowa.infi.net) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-08 0:00 ` F. Britt Snodgrass @ 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Richard Kenner 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-08 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Thank you and others who have corrected my misunderstanding of GNAT's license. I had assumed that since the file "copying.lib" is distributed with GNAT, it's requirements must apply to GNAT's libraries. I did not think to look at the file headers because I wasn't aware that "special exceptions" to the GPL were permitted. Again, a huge misunderstanding of the GPL. Anyone holding a copyright can license things however they please. For instance, someone could use a license that allowed anyone but Microsoft to use a product free. The GPL is simply a starting point that you can use or not as you please, and modify anyway you like. Now the FSF is interested in free availability, so for software copyrighted by the FSF, it is unlikely that you would see peculiar restrictive versions of the GPL. The idea of the special exceptions is to extend the utility rather than to restrict it. I work for a large corporation which currently discourages the use of GNU software. The company lawyers have read the GPL and LGPL and are nervous that we might unknowingly incorporate GPL'd software into a product and then have customers requesting "our" software under the terms of the GPL. Well you can't blame the lawyers if you give them the wrong information. They are right to worry about incorporating GPL'ed software and also, if you don't want to distribute object files, you should also avoid including anything that is copyrighted under the LGPL. In general, you have to be very careful about incorporating components into your software whose copyrights are held by others. This applies equally to any copyrighted software. For example, if you use a TSP compiler, then you are incorporating TSP copyrighted code into your application, and you should have your lawyers make sure that this does not cause you problems (I assume it does not, like ACT, TSP is interested in avoiding such problems). In the case of GNAT, you should also check carefully to make sure that the copyrighted units you include do not cause you trouble, but please give the right copyright statement to your lawyers, and not some entirely irrelevant stuff! I am trying to get this no-GNU policy changed. I need to understand how GNAT's GPL license may or may not differ from that of plain gcc or g77. While I now understand that GNAT may be used to produce propriatary,for-profit executables, the last sentence of the special exception warns me to do so very carefully. No, you are not a lawyer probably, so you overreact to the last sentence. All this says is that you can't go including units covered by the normal GPL, and say "Hey, that's OK, I've got a unit here from GNAT that says everything is OK". I have occasionally run into cases where lawyers do not understand the issues clearly, and indeed many people are confused and read all sorts of things into the GPL that are not there (for example, the adahome page says that GPL'ed software cannot be sold -- which is of course nonsense). However, in this case, it seems that your lawyers were giving you correct information about something that does not in fact apply to you. Note that the runtime code for other GNU compilers (e.g. g++) is also distributed under specialized versions of the GPL designed to eliminate problems with incorporation of runtime library code. The statement for GNAT is a specialized one, that specifically addresses the concern about generic instantiation. We are currently preparing a Web page that will attempt to clarify these issues in further detail. Meanwhile, a useful example to think about is NextStep. At this stage, the only property that this company has is its proprietary operating system software. This is entirely written using GCC. There are many other such examples. I also note that we have run into a number of situations where sales people from other Ada vendors have, shall we say, rather peculiar notions about GNU software and the GPL, and work hard to pass these peculiar notions on to their customers :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-08 0:00 ` F. Britt Snodgrass 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Richard Kenner 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert S. White 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Richard Kenner @ 1996-11-08 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <55ufo9$2ar@nw101.infi.net> "F. Britt Snodgrass" <ada95@fyiowa.infi.net> writes: >I did not think to look at the file headers because I >wasn't aware that "special exceptions" to the GPL were permitted. How could they *not* be permitted? The GPL itself isn't being changed here, it's just that the copyright is only including by reference a different set of conditions than referencing the whole GPL would produce. >I work for a large corporation which currently discourages the use >of GNU software. The company lawyers have read the GPL and LGPL and >are nervous that we might unknowingly incorporate GPL'd software >into a product and then have customers requesting "our" software >under the terms of the GPL. First of all, if you'd "unknowingly" incorporate GPL'ed software into a product, I'd be concerned you also might unknowingly incorporate some third-party licenced software into your product. Most companies carefully track what software is part of their products, so I'm confused why you don't. Secondly, your lawyers might want to consider NeXT. This is a company whose sole propriety asset is compiled using GPL'ed compilers and linked with GPL'ed libraries. >While I now understand that GNAT may be used to produce >propriatary,for-profit executables, the last sentence of the special >exception warns me to do so very carefully. What are you talking about? What's your concern here? All that sentence is saying is that if you have executable that would be covered by the GPL by virtue of including a GPL'ed file, the mere presence of that library file doesn't mean you can ignore that fact. In other words, that fact that GNAT itself contains that file does not mean that it no longer is covered by the GPL. Vague concerns can't be dealt with. You and your company's lawyers needs to come up with specific scenarios that you are concerned about. Then discuss them with RMS or people on this group who will be happy to explain why each of those scenarios can't happen. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Richard Kenner @ 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert S. White 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Robert S. White @ 1996-11-09 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <55v2eq$8qq@news.nyu.edu>, kenner@lab.ultra.nyu.edu says... ...snip... >>While I now understand that GNAT may be used to produce >>propriatary,for-profit executables, the last sentence of the special >>exception warns me to do so very carefully. > >What are you talking about? What's your concern here? > >All that sentence is saying is that if you have executable that would >be covered by the GPL by virtue of including a GPL'ed file, the mere >presence of that library file doesn't mean you can ignore that fact. >In other words, that fact that GNAT itself contains that file does not >mean that it no longer is covered by the GPL. Huh? What file? So the GPL still applies? > >Vague concerns can't be dealt with. You and your company's lawyers needs >to come up with specific scenarios that you are concerned about. Then >discuss them with RMS or people on this group who will be happy to explain >why each of those scenarios can't happen. All of the above still has me very confused. You need to make it crystal clear to lawyers that there is not a problem. I do not think that you and Robert Dewar have completely re-assured Richard, Britt and me that there is not a problem. We need to get the lawyers to clear it. We do not want to spread FUD. We want to tell upper management that this is NOT a barrier. In the meantime, other companies have a competitive advantage over ACT for our business. _______________________________________________________________________ Robert S. White -- an embedded sys software engineer WhiteR@CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US --long/cheap alternate I-net address ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert S. White @ 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Richard Kenner 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-08 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert White says "All of the above still has me very confused. You need to make it crystal clear to lawyers that there is not a problem. I do not think that you and Robert Dewar have completely re-assured Richard, Britt and me that there is not a problem. We need to get the lawyers to clear it." It *is* quite clear to lawyers, but you need to give them the right material to look at. Remember this thread started with an incorrect uniformed guess that GNAT used the LGPL, and a comment that some lawyers did not like the LGPL. The latter may be true, but given that GNAT does NOT use the LGPL, not relevant By all means have your lawyers read the GPL, and then read the exception clause that is used in the license for GNAT components, as indeed you should have them read ALL copyright and license provisions for ANY components you intend to include in your software. If your lawyer has a question, then, as Richard noted, have him get in touch with RMS, or with us, and we will explain. In particular, if you or your lawyer have some idea of a scenario which is worrisome, then explain it to us, and we will explain to you why your worry is groundless. We can't react to vague unarticulated concerns. Such concerns without specific questions are indeed in the FUD category :-) Lots of major companies, including Silicon Graphics, Lockheed, Boeing, and many others are creating proprietary and/or classified Ada codes using GNAT. Furthermore, in the past, many companies have used GNU C or G++ to create proprietary software. I gave the example of Nextstep, but there are several other companies that use only GNU software to create their proprietary software. There is no problem here. Why you think there might be is unclear to us, since you have not articulated any specific concern that can be addressed. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert S. White 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Richard Kenner 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Fergus Henderson @ 1996-11-09 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) WhiteR@CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US (Robert S. White) writes: ]In article <55v2eq$8qq@news.nyu.edu>, kenner@lab.ultra.nyu.edu says... ]>>While I now understand that GNAT may be used to produce ]>>propriatary,for-profit executables, the last sentence of the special ]>>exception warns me to do so very carefully. ]> ]>What are you talking about? What's your concern here? ]> ]>All that sentence is saying is that if you have executable that would ]>be covered by the GPL by virtue of including a GPL'ed file, the mere ]>presence of that library file doesn't mean you can ignore that fact. ] ]>In other words, that fact that GNAT itself contains that file does not ]>mean that it no longer is covered by the GPL. ] ] Huh? What file? So the GPL still applies? Let me clarify: All that sentence [the last sentence of the special exception to the GLP in the copying conditions of a GNAT library file] is saying is that if you have an executable that would be covered by the GPL by virtue of including a GPL'ed file [some *other* GPL'd file], the mere presence of that library file [the GNAT library file] doesn't mean you can ignore that fact [the fact that your executable is covered by the GPL, since it includes that *other* GPL'd file]. For example, the fact that GNAT itself contains that file [the GNAT library file] does not mean that it [the GNAT executable] no longer is covered by the GPL. [The GNAT executable is covered by the GPL because the non-library files in GNAT are covered by the GLP.] If your executable is produced by linking only your own proprietry code and the GNAT libraries, then it is NOT covered by the GPL. ] All of the above still has me very confused. You need to make it ]crystal clear to lawyers that there is not a problem. I do not think that ]you and Robert Dewar have completely re-assured Richard, Britt and me that ]there is not a problem. If your executable is produced by linking only your own proprietry code and the GNAT libraries, then it is NOT covered by the GPL. I'm sure that Rober Dewar, Richard Kenner, or Richard Stallman will confirm this for you if you ask them. -- Fergus Henderson <fjh@cs.mu.oz.au> | "I have always known that the pursuit WWW: <http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~fjh> | of excellence is a lethal habit" PGP: finger fjh@128.250.37.3 | -- the last words of T. S. Garp. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson @ 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar [not found] ` <562p07$cf8@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-09 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Fergus says "If your executable is produced by linking only your own proprietry code and the GNAT libraries, then it is NOT covered by the GPL. I'm sure that Rober Dewar, Richard Kenner, or Richard Stallman will confirm this for you if you ask them." Right, more accurately, the provision in the GPL that requires availability of source, and transfer of the right to redistribute does not apply (these are the only two items that would be worrisome if you want to create a non-redistribtable program where you retain trade secret rights to the sources). Robert White is still confused it would appear. My advice to him is to have his lawyer explain the situation, that's what lawyers are for. If you are in the business of including other people's code in your own, then no matter what the source, you have to be very careful of the legal situation (we are sure to be careful in the GNU world when we include code that comes from other sources!) If your lawyer is confused, or thinks that there is a problem, then the lawyer should contact us, and we will be happy to explain in more detail. Robert Dewar Ada Core Technologies ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <562p07$cf8@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>]
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) [not found] ` <562p07$cf8@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> @ 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1996-11-09 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) iRobert White said "it. But it is not easy to straighten out corperate lawyers after they make broad based pronouncments about GNU software. This will be interesting to see if we can make them modify their position." It hardly seems fair to talk about "straightening out" the lawyers here. They made pronouncements on certain contractual instruments, namely the GPL and LGPL, and deemed that neither was accceptable for your purposes. Well that's not surprising, it is because of such problems that we have a different set of license conditoins for the GNAT runtime sources. If you want useful output from lawyers, you have to give them relevant input! Give your lawyers specifically the license agreement in question, i.e. a copy of the GPL, with the additional paragraphs, and then ask them if there is a problem. If they think there is a problem, then have them get in touch with us, just as you would do with any vendor if you have a problem with the licesnse conditions on their runtime. As Richard notes, the GNAT runtime is the least restrictive it could be, so it is least likely to cause you trouble! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert S. White 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson @ 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Richard Kenner 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Richard Kenner @ 1996-11-09 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <560nst$bnu@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> WhiteR@CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US (Robert S. White) writes: > Huh? What file? So the GPL still applies? In general, no. Let me try again. Consider two files: R, which is in the GNAT RTL and covered by the "special exception" and X, some GPL'ed file not part of GNAT and which does not have this exception. If you make an executable containing X, but not R, clearly the GPL applies to that executable. If you make an executable containing R, but not X, the special exception means that the GPL does *not* apply to that executable. The last sentence is there for the case of an executable containing *both* X and R. It is making it clear that if you had an executable containing X which is subject to the GPL, you cannot avoid having the GPL apply to that executable by *adding* R. Clear now? >All of the above still has me very confused. You need to make it >crystal clear to lawyers that there is not a problem. It's logically impossible to prove a negative. Sorry. >We do not want to spread FUD. We want to tell upper management that this >is NOT a barrier. In the meantime, other companies have a competitive >advantage over ACT for our business. Why is that? Do you know any compiler whose run-time libraries are *not* copyrighted and licensed? In *all* cases, you need to carefully read the applicable terms and conditions to make sure you can legally use them in your executables and what, if any, restrictions they impose on redistribution of your product. Be sure your lawyers review these as well. By that measure, GNAT cannot possibly be worse than any other compiler because it imposes *no* restrictions whatsoever. But you need to decide what compiler is best for you using whatever criteria you find important and make your choice on that basis. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1996-11-09 0:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1996-11-07 0:00 LGPL Requirements (was: Selecting Ada95 compiler for MSDOS realtime application) F. Britt Snodgrass 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Dale Pontius 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Samuel Tardieu 1996-11-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 1996-11-08 0:00 ` F. Britt Snodgrass 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Richard Kenner 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert S. White 1996-11-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar [not found] ` <562p07$cf8@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-11-09 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
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