Standards - on the net or for sale?

Standards - on the net or for sale?

[Michael Feldman]

We had a recent thread on this group regarding various ISO standards
including the one for Ada 95. In sorting through some unread (paper!)
mail this morning, I discovered Communications of the ACM, Feb. 1995,
in which appears an excellent article on this subject by Roy Rada and
a co-author. They do not mention language standards specifically, but
point to all kinds of computing standards, some of which are put up on
the net and others of which are copyrighted for sale.

Both these writers have been very active in standards work; I know Roy 
has been a player in the ACM standards committee. The important point 
they make in their article is that inaccessibility and high price of
standards inhibits their active use, and this flies in the face of
all the zillions of hours of (mostly) volunteer work that goes into
making a good standard, in the hope that the standard will be used.

This article comes down very strongly on the side of free distribution
of standards, advocating that the various standards-making organizations
increase their membership fees to compensate for the (high) lost
income. The authors are particularly galled by IEEE's recently stated
intention to copyright _draft_ standards, so that even these would 
come under a "monopolistic" distribution.

The authors argue strongly for Internet distribution of standards -
in the Ada community we can rejoice in being "ahead of the curve"
(for once). Too bad this article didn't point that out. Oh well.

Anyway, this article makes good reading.

Mike Feldman

Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?

[CONDIC]

From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
Subject: Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?
Original_To:  PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
Original_cc:  CONDIC



Michael Feldman <mfeldman@SEAS.GWU.EDU> Writes:
>Both these writers have been very active in standards work; I know Roy
>has been a player in the ACM standards committee. The important point
>they make in their article is that inaccessibility and high price of
>standards inhibits their active use, and this flies in the face of
>all the zillions of hours of (mostly) volunteer work that goes into
>making a good standard, in the hope that the standard will be used.
>
    I'd have to most vehemently agree with this view. Certainly,
    private organizations (IEEE, et alia) are perfectly free to charge
    whatever they want for their standards, but it contributes to
    cutting their own throats. If they're free and easy to get,
    they'll get used and hence become _REAL_ standards, not just
    "paper" standards.

    What does tend to gall me is when the _GOVERNMENT_ doesn't make
    this stuff available on the Internet for free and easy access by
    all of us who must use the standards they define. After all, we've
    already paid for this stuff in the form of taxes, most of these
    things would almost certainly be in machine readable form already
    and it would save the government money by having industry pay to
    murder all those trees to print out the standards as they need
    them.

    Should we start lobbying Congress? I hear lots of Congressmen now
    have Internet addresses...

    (BTW: If the opposite of "pro" is "con" - what is the opposite of
    "progress"? :-))

    Pax,
    Marin

Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer    ATT:        407.796.8997
M/S 731-93                                      Technet:    796.8997
Pratt & Whitney, GESP                           Internet:   CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
P.O. Box 109600                                 Internet:   MDCONDIC@AOL.COM
West Palm Beach, FL 33410-9600
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Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?

[Robert Dewar]

Saying that standards should be free is not reasonable if you consider
it in isolation. Everyone wants everything to be free, but in fact
almost nothing is free.

The proper way of saying things is "I think xxx should pay for the
dissemination of standards". Standards organizations require a paid
professional staff, who will pay them is a question that cannot be ignored.

So if this thread continues, I would like to see some candidates for
xxx. After all there are a lot of people who take the not completely
unreasonable view that those who use something should pay for it!

Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?

[CONDIC]

From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
Subject: Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?
Original_To:  PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
Original_cc:  CONDIC



Robert Dewar <dewar@CS.NYU.EDU> writes:
>The proper way of saying things is "I think xxx should pay for the
>dissemination of standards". Standards organizations require a paid
>professional staff, who will pay them is a question that cannot be ignored.
>
A touch! A touch! I do confess!

However, WRT government established standards the issue of who
pays is already clear. I did when the government confiscated part
of my paycheck under threat of legal unpleasantness.

>
>So if this thread continues, I would like to see some candidates for
>xxx. After all there are a lot of people who take the not completely
>unreasonable view that those who use something should pay for it!
>
IEEE is a private organization funded by its membership dues. I
think if it wants to be in the standards establishing business,
it can decide for itself how best to recoup the cost. I have no
objection to the notion of charging the folks who actually use
the standard for the cost of it's production.

But if you'd like to *really* make it a used and effective
standard, (as opposed to shelfware) then underwriting it at the
expense of the membership and disseminating it for free would be
a better strategy. It would probably also boost membership.

Q: How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a
lightbulb?

A: None Bill Gates declares darkness to be an industry standard.

Pax,
Marin

Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer    ATT:        407.796.8997
M/S 731-93                                      Technet:    796.8997
Pratt & Whitney, GESP                           Internet:   CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
P.O. Box 109600                                 Internet:   MDCONDIC@AOL.COM
West Palm Beach, FL 33410-9600
===============================================================================
    Please send responses to one of the addresses in this trailer.
    A "reply" to the address in the message header will bounce.
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    Glendower: "I can call spirits from the vasty deep."
    Hotspur: "Why so can I, or so can any man; but will they come when
    you do call for them?"

        -- Shakespeare, "Henry IV"
===============================================================================

Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?

[David Arno]

In article <INFO-ADA%95032012021548@VM1.NODAK.EDU>
           CONDIC@PSAVAX.PWFL.COM  writes:

:     What does tend to gall me is when the _GOVERNMENT_ doesn't make
:     this stuff available on the Internet for free and easy access by
:     all of us who must use the standards they define. After all, we've
:     already paid for this stuff in the form of taxes, most of these
:     things would almost certainly be in machine readable form already
:     and it would save the government money by having industry pay to
:     murder all those trees to print out the standards as they need
:     them.
: 
:     Should we start lobbying Congress? I hear lots of Congressmen now
:     have Internet addresses...
: 

Interesting point, but don't forget that standards should idealy be
international not just american (usa) standards. It's rather unfair for the
rest of us to expect you Americans to pay for these standards to be free to
us all due to you paying for them through your taxes. Though by doing so,
Congress (or whoever) do encourage them to become international standards,
since they are free to the whole world. (a case in point, the computing world
would be in a complete mess if all non american computer companies had
to pay to use the ASCII character set).

-- 
David Arno

Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?

[CONDIC]

From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
Subject: Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?
Original_To:  PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
Original_cc:  CONDIC



David Arno <davea@LINKMSD.COM> writes:
>
>Interesting point, but don't forget that standards should idealy be
>international not just american (usa) standards. It's rather unfair for the
>rest of us to expect you Americans to pay for these standards to be free to
>us all due to you paying for them through your taxes. Though by doing so,
>Congress (or whoever) do encourage them to become international standards,
>since they are free to the whole world. (a case in point, the computing world
>would be in a complete mess if all non american computer companies had
>to pay to use the ASCII character set).
>
    You make a valid case, sir. However, let me point out that just
    about any military standard is *already* available at basically
    the printing and shipping cost (plus some subsidy from Congress,
    no doubt) from the Government Printing Office or Navy Pubs or a
    number of other locations. So basically, anyone in any country can
    benefit from the standards produced by the government without
    having to pay the taxes to support the development. (Although why
    someone would want to voluntarily use *some* of these Mil
    Standards, I don't know!)

    I'd chalk this up to the "Oh Well" category and not worry too much
    about my tax dollars supporting someone's software development in
    Outer Mongolia, just because they could download the standard from
    the internet for free. It *still* saves me money (and time!) when
    us defense contractor types can glom onto a standard as we need
    it. Ultimately, the taxpayers will spend less.

    Pax Vobiscum,
    Marin


Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer    ATT:        407.796.8997
M/S 731-93                                      Technet:    796.8997
Pratt & Whitney, GESP                           Internet:   CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
P.O. Box 109600                                 Internet:   MDCONDIC@AOL.COM
West Palm Beach, FL 33410-9600
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Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?

[Doc Elliott]

In article <INFO-ADA%95032012021548@VM1.NODAK.EDU>, 
CONDIC@PSAVAX.PWFL.COM says...
>
>From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
>Subject: Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?
>Original_To:  PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
>Original_cc:  CONDIC
>
>
>
>Michael Feldman <mfeldman@SEAS.GWU.EDU> Writes:
>>Both these writers have been very active in standards work;

Sniperoo

>    What does tend to gall me is when the _GOVERNMENT_ doesn't make
>    this stuff available on the Internet for free and easy access by
>    all of us who must use the standards they define. After all, we've
>    already paid for this stuff in the form of taxes, most of these
>    things would almost certainly be in machine readable form already
>    and it would save the government money by having industry pay to
>    murder all those trees to print out the standards as they need
>    them.


Well, they kinda do.  Lots of the "Government" standards are available 
from various sites via FTP etc.  The real crux of the problem is that 
there is an overwhelming rush to abandon these standards!  We voted in a 
bunch who are determined to tear down anything that the government has 
done and put in place, whether its good or bad, and government standards 
seem to fall into both these categories.  In the rush to do away with 
government standards and take up the cross of commercial standards, we 
(yes you) seem to have forgotten that sometimes these kinds of paradigm 
shifts can have lotsa bugs.

There!  You didn't even have to pay $0.02 for it!
Doc Elliott
KE4KUZ
Internet: helliott@losat.redstone.army.mil
packet: ke4kuz@k4ry.#cenal.al.usa.noam
The opinions expressed herein are mine, and do not
reflect those of my employer or anyone else unless
specifically stated as such.

Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?

[Curtis]

Anyone know if this project is still active?

   NIST and the American National Standards Institute have signed a
   cooperative agreement to jointly lead the effort to develop the
   National Standards Systems Network. The NSSN eventually will link the
   databases of hundreds of U.S. organizations involved in the
   development, production, distribution and use of technical standards.
   When operational in five years, the NSSN will provide cataloging,
   indexing, searching and routing capabilities to end users allowing
   access to the entire range of regional, national and international
   standards. The NSSN is expected to reduce significantly standards
   development time and costs; minimize duplication between government
   and private-sector standards; increase dissemination of standards data
   to small businesses and increase involvement in national and
   international standards activities. Funding for the NSSN project is
   through a grant from the Technology Reinvestment Project. For more
   information, contact David Cranmer, B115 Polymer Bldg., NIST,
   Gaithersburg, Md. 20899-0001, (301) 975-5753, e-mail:
   cranmerd@micf.nist.gov (via Internet), or Dianne E. Kelley, ANSI, 11
   W. 42nd St., New York, N.Y. 10036, (212) 642-4911, e-mail:
   dianne.kelley@tlbbs.org (via Internet).

Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?

[CONDIC]

From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
Subject: Re: Standards - on the net or for sale?
Original_To:  PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
Original_cc:  CONDIC



Doc Elliott <helliott@LOSAT.REDSTONE.ARMY.MIL> Writes:
>
>Well, they kinda do.  Lots of the "Government" standards are available
>from various sites via FTP etc.  The real crux of the problem is that
>
I'd gladly send you a check for $0.02 if you'd tell me where I
can FTP a nice, clean Postscript version of Mil-Std-1750A,
Mil-Std-1553B, etc. I've asked in this venue before and nobody
seems to know.

>
>seem to fall into both these categories.  In the rush to do away with
>government standards and take up the cross of commercial standards, we
>(yes you) seem to have forgotten that sometimes these kinds of paradigm
>shifts can have lotsa bugs.
>
I assume you didn't mean 'me' personally. Some mil standards are
perfectly fine in my mind. Some are lousy in that they try to
apply a "one size fits all" inflexible solution on every possible
situation. In any case, I don't expect Mil-Std-1815A,
Mil-Std-1750A, Mil-Std-1553B, Mil-Std-2167A, et alia to go away
any time real soon and I'd still like to get copies as needed
without going to our tech-pubs people, filling out forms, waiting
for weeks and finally getting a fifth generation xerox of a
standard with a handfull of update pages to be dealt with
separately by the consumer. (_That's_ stuff that sucks!)

I reiterate my point - Government developed standards ought to be
at an anonymous FTP site where I can get at them easily. It would
save the government money, the DoD contractor money and the
American people money.

Pax,
Marin

Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer    ATT:        407.796.8997
M/S 731-93                                      Technet:    796.8997
Pratt & Whitney, GESP                           Internet:   CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
P.O. Box 109600                                 Internet:   MDCONDIC@AOL.COM
West Palm Beach, FL 33410-9600
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