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From: "Mark Lundquist" <up.yerz@nospam.com>
Subject: Re: Ada The Best Language?
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:31:49 GMT
Date: 2001-07-21T15:31:49+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <Ffh67.385473$p33.7760243@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 5be89e2f.0107170838.c71ad61@posting.google.com


"codesavvy" <codesavvy@aol.com> wrote in message
news:5be89e2f.0107170838.c71ad61@posting.google.com...
> How come it is not more widely accepted?

That is a very good question.

The simple answer -- a truism really -- is that for most decision-makers,
the perceived costs are not overcome by the perceived benefits.

So if we suppose for the sake of argument that the Ada advocates are right,
then Ada is not more widely accepted because (a) the marginal cost of
choosing Ada over the alternatives are supposed to be higher than the true
marginal cost; and/or (b) the benefits of using Ada are not sufficiently
understood or appreciated.

The way this actually plays out is pretty complex and gets into a lot of
history.  But I think at the core, it's a "critical mass" phenomenon (of
which "self-fulfilling prophecies" represent a case).  For a thorough
treatment of thos concept, I highly recommend Thomas C. Schelling's book,
"Micromotives and Macrobehavior", and especially chapter 3, "Thermostats,
lemons, and other families of models".

If I perceive that few others are choosing Language X, then I will tend to
believe that choosing Language X will place me at a disadvantage.  Everyone
else is thinking the same way.  As a result, adoption and retention of
Language X declines.  It takes a high level of perceived value to overcome
this (as indeed it has done for those who are choosing Ada).

> The stuff I read here states
> that it is because the rest of the world is stupid.

You might see that here sometimes.  Mostly it's hyperbole, and some posters
here are more given to that than others.  You'll also see it in combination
with anti-Microsuck^H^H^Hoft ranting (sorry! :-).

I think most participants in this ng would say that "the rest of the world"
is simply wrong, not necessarily stupid.

Incidentally, the level of one-true-languagism expressed on this ng seems to
have gone down over the past year or two.  Here you can find Ada fans who
are also fans of Eiffel, OCAML, Haskell, Ruby, and other languages.

>  From what I can
> tell there is plenty of crappy code written in Ada.

Definitely true.  There's plenty of crap written in every language, and will
be in every language that has yet to be invented.  But this is hardly
relevant, don't you think?  I've never seen anyone say that code written in
any particular language can be considered good, solely by virtue of its
having been written in that language.

>  I think many who
> share the view that Ada is the best programming language offering
> significant advantages over other programming language might want to
> re-think their positions.

OK, I think Ada's the best, but I'm willing to re-think my position.  But
since it's a thoughtfully held position in the first place, I will probably
need some help -- are you willing to provide it?

-- mark






  parent reply	other threads:[~2001-07-21 15:31 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 243+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2001-07-17 16:38 Ada The Best Language? codesavvy
2001-07-17 17:16 ` chris.danx
2001-07-17 21:35   ` JP
2001-07-18 12:04     ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-18 13:13       ` Colin Paul Gloster
2001-07-18 15:03         ` OO Zealotry horror stories (was Re: Ada the Best Language) Marc A. Criley
2001-07-17 17:53 ` Ada The Best Language? Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-17 18:01 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-18  2:10   ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 10:43     ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-18 14:27     ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-18 20:37       ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 21:11         ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-19 21:45           ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 22:02         ` Ed Falis
2001-07-19 21:50           ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 23:00         ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-19 21:55           ` codesavvy
2001-07-21  8:39             ` Martin Dowie
2001-07-22 14:18             ` John R. Strohm
2001-07-23  6:13               ` 
2001-07-23 11:16                 ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-23 12:27                 ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-24  2:07                 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-20  4:12         ` Adrian Hoe
2001-07-18 17:26     ` Darren New
2001-07-18 18:03       ` Pascal Obry
2001-07-18 20:51       ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 21:03         ` David C. Hoos
2001-07-20  4:00           ` Adrian Hoe
2001-07-18 21:22         ` Darren New
2001-07-19  4:12         ` James Rogers
2001-07-19  8:59           ` Michal Nowak
2001-07-19 10:40           ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-19 12:20           ` codesavvy
2001-07-21 18:20         ` Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-22  3:55           ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.
2001-07-18 21:08     ` Tucker Taft
2001-07-17 20:12 ` Jeffrey Carter
2001-07-17 21:15   ` Gerhard Häring
2001-07-17 21:38   ` Paul Storm
2001-07-18  2:03 ` Tomasz Wegrzanowski
2001-07-18  9:28   ` Gary Lisyansky
2001-07-18 10:42   ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-18  2:40 ` Beau
2001-07-18 10:35   ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 11:27     ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2001-07-18 18:28       ` Brian Rogoff
2001-07-18 21:00         ` codesavvy
2001-07-19 17:31           ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-19 21:36             ` codesavvy
2001-07-24  3:22               ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-25  0:11                 ` David Bolen
2001-07-25  3:09                   ` Recent Ada Information (was: zhttp://www.aceshardware.com/Spades/r Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-25  3:32                     ` David Bolen
2001-07-25  4:53                     ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-25 10:50                   ` Ada The Best Language? codesavvy
2001-07-25 16:04                     ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-25 21:49                       ` codesavvy
2001-07-26 17:24                         ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-26 18:48                           ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-26 20:21                             ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-26 20:52                               ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-26 17:26                         ` Pascal Obry
2001-07-25 19:39                     ` tmoran
2001-07-27  0:35                       ` David Bolen
2001-07-27  1:50                         ` Gary Scott
2001-07-27 14:05                         ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-28  6:42                         ` tmoran
2001-07-28 12:53                           ` When correct software meets illegal data (was: Ada The Best...) Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-28 18:42                             ` tmoran
2001-07-28 20:52                               ` Al Christians
2001-07-28 21:42                                 ` tmoran
2001-07-30  1:53                                 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-28  5:32                       ` Ada The Best Language? JM
2001-07-28  6:49                         ` Gerhard Häring
2001-07-28 12:04                           ` Matthew Woodcraft
2001-07-28 19:46                           ` tmoran
2001-07-29  1:01                             ` Gerhard Häring
2001-07-31  2:59                           ` Tom Moran
2001-07-31  9:40                             ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-31 10:10                               ` Preben Randhol
2001-07-26 13:22                   ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-20 11:20             ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 12:56               ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-20 13:18               ` Dmitry Kazakov
2001-07-20 17:27               ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-20 18:14                 ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 19:10                   ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-20 20:12                     ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 20:48                       ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-23 11:09                       ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-20 19:38                   ` David C. Hoos
2001-07-22 13:13                     ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-22 20:35                       ` David C. Hoos, Sr.
2001-07-22 21:12                         ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-22 22:34                           ` David C. Hoos, Sr.
2001-07-23  7:41                           ` Dmitry Kazakov
2001-07-23  8:27                             ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-23 11:51                               ` Dmitry Kazakov
2001-07-23 12:06                                 ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-24  1:57                                   ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-26 22:31                                   ` Larry Elmore
2001-07-24 14:08                           ` Pat Rogers
2001-07-24 14:29                             ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-24 14:49                               ` Pat Rogers
2001-07-24  1:51                   ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-18 18:29       ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 21:48         ` Hambut
2001-07-18 22:00           ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-19 21:43           ` codesavvy
2001-07-19  7:45         ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2001-07-18 11:55     ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-18 15:49     ` Alfred Hilscher
2001-07-18 20:48       ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 22:12         ` Pascal Obry
2001-07-18 23:22         ` chris.danx
2001-07-20 11:26           ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 12:11             ` chris.danx
2001-07-20 12:43               ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 17:37                 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-24 16:52                   ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-24 16:59                     ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-24 18:25                       ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-25 10:19                         ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-25 18:53                           ` Teergrubing (was: Ada The Best Language?) Ted Dennison
2001-07-24 20:14                     ` Ada The Best Language? Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-24 21:11                     ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-24 22:52                       ` tmoran
2001-07-25  7:08                         ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-25  7:45                           ` tmoran
2001-07-25 15:44                       ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-25 20:39                         ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-26 17:13                           ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-26 21:08                             ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-25  4:03                     ` Tomasz Wegrzanowski
2001-07-24 17:23                 ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-20 12:14             ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-20 12:32               ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 12:39                 ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-20 13:28                   ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 14:19                     ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-20 15:39                       ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 15:47                         ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-20 16:55                           ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-23 11:05                             ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-23 19:42             ` Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-19 10:43         ` Alfred Hilscher
2001-07-19 12:47         ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-19 17:01           ` codesavvy
2001-07-21 12:53             ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-23 19:26         ` Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-18 15:05 ` McDoobie
2001-07-18 20:42   ` codesavvy
2001-07-21 15:38   ` Device drivers in Ada (was Re: Ada The Best Language?) Mark Lundquist
2001-07-21 19:09     ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-21 15:31 ` Mark Lundquist [this message]
2001-07-23  4:15   ` Ada The Best Language? codesavvy
2001-07-23  7:26     ` Martin Dowie
2001-07-23 14:18   ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-24  2:13   ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2001-07-18  8:32 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-18 12:25 ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-19  1:03   ` Mike Silva
2001-07-20 11:30   ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 12:58     ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-20 13:48       ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 14:56         ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-20 16:41           ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-20 17:47           ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-20 19:33             ` David C. Hoos
2001-07-20 17:19         ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-20 18:18           ` Bertrand Augereau
2001-08-06  8:13   ` stoog
2001-07-19 17:10 ` Tomasz Wegrzanowski
2001-07-20 13:31   ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-20 16:46     ` Tomasz Wegrzanowski
2001-07-20 17:00       ` David C. Hoos
2001-08-04  6:04         ` David Thompson
2001-08-05  2:22           ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-23 10:12       ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-18  8:43 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-18  9:22 ` Gerhard Häring
2001-07-18  8:58   ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2001-07-18 14:06 ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 15:27   ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-18 20:31     ` codesavvy
2001-07-18 21:29       ` Darren New
2001-07-18 21:56         ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-19  3:37           ` Larry Hazel
2001-07-19 18:19             ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-21 15:33             ` Mark Lundquist
2001-07-23 13:50               ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-24  4:52                 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.
2001-07-24  6:47                   ` tmoran
2001-07-24 11:47                   ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-24 14:10                   ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-27 11:29                     ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2001-07-19 21:47         ` codesavvy
2001-07-21  2:51           ` DuckE
2001-07-21  3:46           ` Darren New
2001-07-26  1:39           ` Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-19 13:12       ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-19 17:11         ` codesavvy
2001-07-21 14:10           ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-19 14:12       ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2001-07-19 16:58         ` codesavvy
2001-07-19 18:29         ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-19 17:11 ` Tomasz Wegrzanowski
2001-07-19 18:33   ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-19 20:49     ` Tomasz Wegrzanowski
2001-07-19 21:01       ` Darren New
2001-07-19 21:20       ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-19 22:31         ` Tomasz Wegrzanowski
2001-07-19 23:04           ` Darren New
2001-07-19 23:36             ` Tomasz Wegrzanowski
2001-07-20 16:14             ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-20 17:51               ` Darren New
2001-07-20 17:54               ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-20 20:16                 ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-25  9:01           ` Colin Paul Gloster
2001-07-19 22:31       ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-18 14:40 Re[2]: " ANH_VO
2001-07-26  1:53 ` Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-19  0:15 Beard, Frank
2001-07-19 12:24 ` codesavvy
2001-07-19  5:42 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-19  6:32 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-19  6:35 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-19 11:34 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-19 15:24 ` Alfred Hilscher
2001-07-19 15:38   ` nicolas
2001-07-19 17:28 ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-24 13:53   ` Colin Paul Gloster
2001-07-19 16:10 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-20  6:05 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-20  6:08 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-20 17:31 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-21 16:27   ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2001-07-24  2:02     ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-20  6:23 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-20  6:56 Vinzent Hoefler
2001-07-27 20:22 Beard, Frank
2001-07-27 21:28 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-30  2:23 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-27 22:46 Beard, Frank
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