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From: eachus@spectre.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus)
Subject: Software Engineering is not a hoax... (was Re: Any research putting c above ada?)
Date: 1997/05/22
Date: 1997-05-22T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <EACHUS.97May22113850@spectre.mitre.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 5lsjb3$bqc@bcrkh13.bnr.ca



In article <5lsjb3$bqc@bcrkh13.bnr.ca> kaz@vision.crest.nt.com (Kaz Kylheku) writes:

  > I would go as far as saying that ``software engineering'' is a hoax.

    Huh?

  > Developing a correct program is much more akin to theorem proving than
  > engineering activity...

    Ah, programming is not software engineering.  Software engineering
is all that other stuff which successful projects do that results in
projects being successful.

    We had an interesting case a few weeks ago here.  A project
manager wanted to know if switching from X to Y at this point in the
project made sense.  (X and Y here are irrelevant to the discussion.)
He ended up talking to five people who really are software engineers.

    The first person gave him a lot of advice that basically amounted
to do NOTHING to change the specifications for build one, but start a
small scoping activity to make sure that all functions of the current
system are scheduled for build two, and anything else that can be
moved to build three, is.  Then once build two is complete come back
and discuss X vs. Y.

    The project manager thought that this was good advice, but didn't
really answer his X vs. Y question, so he called someone else.  Got
the same answer.  Tried a third person, got the same answer, called
me.  I went over to his office, looked at his schedule charts, and
gave the same answer.  At this point he was suspecting a conspiracy,
because the answers were almost identical and didn't address his
question.  I suggested a fifth person who had been in meetings all
morning, but was familar with the project.   The project manager used
his speaker phone and after asking a few questions got basically this
reply:

    "The thing you have to understand is that even asking the design
team to look at this at this point will cause at least a three month
slip, and you can't afford that, because you are tied to the (system
Z) deployment schedule.  In fact, it is not clear that build three
will be ready by then in any case, so you should make sure that any
functionality provided by the current system is provided in build two.
If it looks like build two will meet your current schedule, then you
can evaluate this question in that context."

    PM: "But is this BETTER in the long run?  That is what I want to
know."

    In chorus: "Trying to answer that now will kill the project."

    All of this had NOTHING to do with actual programming, but
everything to do with software engineering.  Software engineering is
all about knowing the difference between want and need, and keeping
the focus on meeting requirements, whether they relate to cost,
schedule, maintainability, or even to actual product functionality.
The usual stock in trade of the software engineer is managing
complexity, because we know that the project staff can only deal with
so much at a time, and any attempt to exceed that real world limit can
result in disaster.
--

					Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...




  parent reply	other threads:[~1997-05-22  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 185+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1997-05-15  0:00 Any research putting c above ada? Jon S Anthony
1997-05-15  0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-15  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
     [not found]   ` <01bc6189$b074f500$LocalHost@xhv46.dial.pipex.com>
1997-05-16  0:00     ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-16  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-18  0:00         ` Nick Roberts
1997-05-19  0:00           ` NOT about "c above ada" W. Wesley Groleau (Wes)
1997-05-19  0:00         ` Any research putting c above ada? Michael Norrish
1997-05-20  0:00           ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-20  0:00             ` Michael Norrish
1997-05-20  0:00               ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-20  0:00               ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-20  0:00                 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-21  0:00                   ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-21  0:00                 ` Craig Franck
1997-05-22  0:00                 ` Robert I. Eachus [this message]
1997-05-22  0:00                   ` Software Engineering and Dreamers Nick Roberts
1997-05-22  0:00                     ` Tom Moran
1997-05-25  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-26  0:00                         ` David Ray
1997-05-23  0:00                     ` Mark Allen Framness
1997-05-23  0:00                       ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-23  0:00                     ` Mark Allen Framness
1997-05-23  0:00                     ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-05-23  0:00                       ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-24  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-24  0:00                         ` jason hummel
1997-05-25  0:00                         ` Craig Franck
1997-05-26  0:00                           ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-26  0:00                             ` Craig Franck
1997-05-27  0:00                               ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-28  0:00                               ` Fritz W Feuerbacher
1997-05-29  0:00                                 ` Craig Franck
1997-05-29  0:00                                   ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-26  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-27  0:00                               ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-27  0:00                                 ` Dann Corbit
1997-05-26  0:00                         ` Fritz W Feuerbacher
1997-05-26  0:00                           ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-26  0:00                             ` tstcroix
1997-05-27  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-27  0:00                                 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-28  0:00                                   ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-31  0:00                                   ` Nick Roberts
1997-06-02  0:00                                     ` Jon S Anthony
1997-06-09  0:00                                   ` Ralph Silverman
1997-05-27  0:00                             ` system
1997-05-27  0:00                               ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-28  0:00                                 ` Rich Miller
1997-05-28  0:00                                   ` Bryce Bardin
1997-05-28  0:00                                     ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-28  0:00                                     ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-05-29  0:00                                       ` Nick Leaton
1997-05-29  0:00                                       ` Matthew S. Whiting
1997-05-27  0:00                             ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-28  0:00                               ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-05-28  0:00                             ` Fritz W Feuerbacher
1997-05-29  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-29  0:00                               ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-30  0:00                             ` Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats
1997-05-30  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-02  0:00                                 ` Nick Roberts
1997-06-07  0:00                                   ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-02  0:00                                 ` Mathew Hendry
1997-06-03  0:00                                   ` Craig Franck
1997-06-03  0:00                                   ` John Winters
1997-06-02  0:00                                     ` Mathew Hendry
1997-06-03  0:00                                       ` Martin C. Carlisle
1997-06-08  0:00                                         ` Joe Charlier
1997-06-09  0:00                                         ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-17  0:00                                           ` Nick Roberts
1997-06-04  0:00                                       ` John Winters
1997-06-06  0:00                                       ` Volker Hetzer
1997-06-06  0:00                                         ` Mathew Hendry
1997-06-08  0:00                                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-09  0:00                                             ` Jonathan Guthrie
1997-06-09  0:00                                               ` Mathew Hendry
1997-06-11  0:00                                                 ` Jonathan Guthrie
1997-06-11  0:00                                                   ` Mathew Hendry
1997-06-11  0:00                                                 ` Crocodiles [was: Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers] Anonymous
1997-06-11  0:00                                                   ` Off topic: Crocodiles Mukesh Prasad
1997-06-11  0:00                                                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-11  0:00                                                       ` Mukesh Prasad
1997-06-12  0:00                                                       ` Jon S Anthony
1997-06-11  0:00                                                   ` Crocodiles [was: Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers] Spam Hater
1997-06-12  0:00                                                     ` Anonymous
1997-06-17  0:00                                               ` Software Engineering and Dreamers Nick Roberts
1997-06-09  0:00                                             ` Craig Franck
1997-06-08  0:00                                               ` John G. Volan
1997-06-09  0:00                                                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-09  0:00                                                   ` John G. Volan
1997-06-10  0:00                                                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-09  0:00                                                   ` SE, Dreamers, and on and on and on W. Wesley Groleau (Wes)
1997-06-08  0:00                                               ` Software Engineering and Dreamers Jason Shankel
1997-06-09  0:00                                                 ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                                         ` <19970606.49CA70..12B91@ae124.du.pipex.com>
1997-06-07  0:00                                           ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-06-09  0:00                                             ` W. Wesley Groleau (Wes)
1997-06-10  0:00                                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-10  0:00                                                 ` W. Wesley Groleau (Wes)
1997-06-07  0:00                                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-08  0:00                                         ` Mathew Hendry
1997-06-03  0:00                                     ` Ed Prochak - Woodland Consultants
1997-06-03  0:00                                   ` Matthew S. Whiting
1997-06-03  0:00                                     ` Spaceman Spiff
1997-06-02  0:00                                 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-06-02  0:00                               ` Jon S Anthony
     [not found]                                 ` <01bc7042$609289e0$cb61e426@DCorbit.solutionsiq.com>
1997-06-03  0:00                                   ` Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: " H. Blakely Williford
1997-06-04  0:00                                     ` Craig Franck
1997-06-03  0:00                                       ` Spaceman Spiff
1997-06-09  0:00                                         ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-09  0:00                                         ` Ceri Stagg
1997-06-12  0:00                                           ` Philip Brashear
1997-07-21  0:00                                             ` Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
1997-06-09  0:00                                         ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-06-10  0:00                                       ` Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats
1997-06-04  0:00                                   ` Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats
1997-06-04  0:00                                     ` �Stephen!
1997-06-05  0:00                                       ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-06-06  0:00                                         ` Volker Hetzer
     [not found]                                     ` <01bc7a5b$9ccdd900$21320f9b@mindlin>
     [not found]                                       ` <5o7ahj$oos$1@news12.gte.net>
1997-06-18  0:00                                         ` Spam Hater
1997-06-18  0:00                                           ` Spaceman Spiff
1997-06-19  0:00                                             ` Stephan Wilms
1997-06-20  0:00                                             ` Spam Hater
1997-06-19  0:00                                           ` Mukesh Prasad
1997-06-18  0:00                                         ` Philip Hindman
1997-06-19  0:00                                         ` Craig Franck
1997-06-18  0:00                                           ` Spaceman Spiff
1997-06-19  0:00                                             ` Steve Howard
1997-06-19  0:00                                               ` Anonymous
1997-06-20  0:00                                             ` Spam Hater
1997-06-21  0:00                                               ` Spaceman Spiff
1997-06-23  0:00                                               ` root
1997-06-22  0:00                                             ` Alicia Carla Longstreet
1997-06-19  0:00                                           ` Stephan Wilms
1997-06-24  0:00                                           ` David Thornley
1997-06-06  0:00                                 ` Fritz W Feuerbacher
1997-06-06  0:00                                   ` Joe Charlier
1997-06-04  0:00                             ` S. Norby
1997-05-30  0:00                         ` Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats
1997-05-24  0:00                     ` Bill Anderson
1997-05-23  0:00                   ` Software Engineering is not a hoax... (was Re: Any research putting c above ada?) Jeff Carter
1997-05-23  0:00                     ` William M.Gordon
1997-05-23  0:00                       ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-23  0:00                         ` John Bode
1997-05-25  0:00                           ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-25  0:00                           ` Craig Franck
1997-05-25  0:00                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-26  0:00                           ` Software Engineering is not a hoax Laurent Gasser
1997-05-26  0:00                             ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-27  0:00                             ` Scott Stanchfield
1997-05-27  0:00                               ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-27  0:00                                 ` Scott Stanchfield
1997-05-29  0:00                                 ` Dean Runzel
1997-05-29  0:00                                   ` Scott Stanchfield
1997-05-29  0:00                                   ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-30  0:00                                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-05-30  0:00                                       ` John G. Volan
1997-05-30  0:00                                   ` Lord Shaman
1997-05-27  0:00                               ` Dan Evens
1997-05-27  0:00                                 ` Scott Stanchfield
1997-05-28  0:00                             ` Alan Bowler
1997-05-29  0:00                               ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-23  0:00                         ` Software Engineering is not a hoax... (was Re: Any research putting c above ada?) Robert I. Eachus
1997-05-25  0:00                           ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-24  0:00                         ` Fritz W Feuerbacher
1997-05-24  0:00                         ` W. Wesley Groleau (Wes)
1997-05-24  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-06-12  0:00                         ` Software Engineering is not a hoax Keith Shillington
1997-06-12  0:00                           ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-06-17  0:00                           ` brucemo
1997-06-17  0:00                             ` Richard Turner
1997-06-17  0:00                               ` Spam Hater
1997-06-17  0:00                                 ` Richard Turner
1997-06-12  0:00                   ` Ralph Silverman
     [not found]                   ` <33859489.7FB8@spam.inno <5nplh1$276@nntp.seflin.org>
1997-06-13  0:00                     ` Michael Tippach
1997-06-13  0:00                     ` Paul Mesken
1997-05-20  0:00             ` Any research putting c above ada? Kaz Kylheku
1997-05-20  0:00               ` Jon S Anthony
1997-05-20  0:00   ` Les Hazlewood
1997-05-20  0:00     ` Newsthread integrity Nick Roberts
1997-05-20  0:00     ` Any research putting c above ada? Jason A Cunningham
1997-05-21  0:00       ` Stephan Wilms
1997-05-21  0:00         ` Jason A Cunningham
1997-05-16  0:00 ` T Wheeley
1997-05-16  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
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