Re: What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?]

[eachus@spectre.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus)]

    (I don't usually post this wide and not restrict followups, but
this seems to be a very general discussion of interest to all sorts of
software professionals.)

In article <503bq0$js@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> ok@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes:

  > You don't even BEGIN to know what world I want.
  > I can tell you for certain sure that we don't even begin to approach
  > hailing distance of the shadow of the world I want.
  > To start with, I would like students at entry...

  > I'm sorry, but it is FARCICAL to argue about whether students
  > should learn assembly code early on or not when I get students who
  > cannot divide 1000 by 10 without a calculator (this really
  > happened) and cannot spell their own name (this happened too).
  > And we don't get the worst university entrants here either, far
  > from it.

   We have all seen it happening and the slide is getting faster and
faster.  The world is rapidly dividing into those who try to
understand math, science, and technology, and those who have given up,
often at an early age.

   We joke about "McJobs" and read Dilbert, but the best reality we
can hope for is one where those who are willing to confront technology
on the terms it requires are allowed and encouraged to do so.

   Back to Richard for a second:

   > - to have a really thorough grasp of their native language
   >   (I could count the number of 1st year students here who can tell me
   >    the difference between a count noun and a mass noun on the fingers
   >    of one ear)

   > - to have an adequate grasp of English if that is not their
       native language 

   > - to take *pleasure* in reading

   I always used to complain about Snow's "Two Cultures" that he got
it fundamentally wrong.  The two classes are those who understand
logic and enjoy literature, and those who don't.  Science is a side
issue.  If you can't use your "mother tongue" as a tool, you can't
succeed at many things, including science, mathemathics, history,
medicine, literature, the performing arts, and politics.

   When I was in high school (in the early 60's), the National Science
Foundation had a number of summer programs for bright students.  I
went to one for Mathematics.  The real treat was that most of the
participants, from all sorts of backgrounds, could argue.  It didn't
matter what we were discussing, students framed their arguments
cogently, avoided ad hominem attacks, and graciously accepted facts
when introduced.

   My brother later took a college course which used one of the
textbooks from that summer.  (Absract Algebra by Andre'.)  After one
semester, the college moved it to from a lower-level (freshman) course
to an upper-level (Junior or Senior).  The reason? the students needed
much more exposure to non-mathmatical courses (read English and
Philosophy) as prerequisites.

   Can we fix the problem?  No, but we can do a lot to ameliorate it.
Human society is changing way to fast for human evolution (genetic and
social) to keep up.  We first have to reach the point where every
child and adult who has the intelligence and inclination to master the
"three R's" is given every bit of assistance and encouragement to do
so.  Then we can worry about the arrangement of courses when they
reach college, but we won't have to.  Once bright students have
mastered the three Rs, they will usually have dined on such an
eclectic smorgasbord of self selected material, that we can't pretend
to dictate an order of approach.  We have all run into (and been) such
students.  We desparately need to create more.

   If you can't think of anything else you can do to help.  Found, if
necessary, a debating club/team at your child's school, and help run
it.  Those kids may love computers, but they won't make it through
college and out into the workplace unless they learn to use language
as a tool. 

   I now take you back to your regularly scheduled newsgroup.
--

					Robert I. Eachus

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