Soviet Union and Ada are similar

Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[Alexy V. Khrabrov]

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    From: ichbiah@jdi.tiac.net (Jean D. Ichbiah)
    Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
    Subject: Re: Ada 95 is the name
    Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 17:34:44 GMT
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    In article <3cho0b$k4f@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com> l107353@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com (Garlington KE) writes:

    >If this is so, shouldn't Ada mean The Latest Ada (at least as of 1995), and
    >Ada 95 and Ada 87 be the preferred form when referring to the current version
    >and the previous version in the same context?

    Now that the Soviet Union has ceased to exist, we have noticed
    a significant decrease in the practice of rewriting history.
    But, well, perhaps it could be tried again.

    Jean D. Ichbiah
--
[climbed the soapbox]

It's a powerful and  metaphoric analogy.  However, the history is
rewritten all the time by all--that's the way the Time works.  I guess
the Soviet Union came to mind because it is a quite recent example of
revelations and discoveries about the past.  There was even a saying,
``Soviet Union is a country with an unpredictable past.''  However,
the most recent example is the D-day's 50th anniversary, when one in
the US could thought the States made the war.  But the fact is, they
came in 1944 to the arena prepared, eventually, by 30,000,000 Soviet
lives.  The total of the US, I remember, is about several hundred
thousand.  The civilian American killed numbered 6 (from a rogue Japanese
balloon with explosive).  Actually, the guys came when all the work was
done.  And used an overkill, nuclear bobming, when the Soviet Army
succeeded in a really helpful invasion, defeting 1,000,000 Kwantun army
and invading the islands.  It's just good to keep in mind, since the
military issues created computers in the WW][ for decyphering needs,
then large-scale military competition with the Soviet Union created the
control systems, which eventually asked for Ada.  The latter I do like,
though the arms race undermined the Soviet Union, and without it it's not
so easy to get Ada money!  Actually, without the Soviet Union, there
would be no Ada.  Namely:

--The Soviet Union largely won the infantry war with Germany, saved
Britain and France and enabled the US to sell weapons to all the allies
and get the money for computers.

--Attracting main German armies (> 100 divisions), the SU enabled the
Brits to finish their 1st computer on which Alan Turing worked.
Instead of bombing all of it, the German main airforces were on the East
front, 4,000 kilometers long, from the Polar Ocean to the Med.

--The US had time, money, and application area to employ computers.
The motivation was ballistics, cryptography, and other areas, where
Germans excelled in the fear of the Soviet Union!

--The lessons of logistics, maintaining a vast armies' conglomerates on
the Eastern front called for the logistics support systems, leading to
the DoD's ones

--Soviet Victory gave Fau-2 and Von Brawn to the allies.  Running away
from the main testbed at Penemunde, taken by the Soviet Army, Von Brawn
surrendered intentionally to the Western allies, who didn't punish him
for his Nazi crimes (caused death of 40,000 Londoners.)  The Cold War
needed rockets, and, my friends, everybodywho heard of using Ada heard
about some embedded systems on this toys.

--The Soviet Union kept the world balance of power, and was the only rival
to the US in the modern warfare.  It stimulated the both countries to
excel in military technology, with civilian benefit.

--The DoD explioted it to get funding from the US taxpayers,
threatening'em with the ``Russian Bear''

--Having got the money, DoD should do something with them, which
couldn't be understood by the congressmen and those alike

--Thus, the computer area emerged

--Thus the Babel emerged there

--Hence Ada was called to existence!

--And the latter thing is great, and better still!

Thus, I believe Ada community actually lost from the loss of the Soviet
Union, not to say about the Ada works stopped in the new republics.  I
think Jean can't be  happy that the country which established
Normandia-Neman airforce squadron, and helped to free France,
disappeared.  The big, well-organized (modular) and united thing is
always better than small fighting components.  The US vs EC is an
example.  The Soviet Union vs CIS is another one.  And Ada is the final
one.

[left the soapbox]

	Alexy V. Khrabrov <khrabrov@cccc.com> 
	``Age Quod Agis'' (Do what you're doing.)

Re: Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[David Emery]

AH, this last posting was certainly in the spirit of 'rewriting
history'.

			dave
--
--The preceeding opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of
--The MITRE Corporation or its sponsors. 
-- "A good plan violently executed -NOW- is better than a perfect plan
--  next week"                                      George Patton
-- "Any damn fool can write a plan.  It's the execution that gets you
--  all screwed up"                              James Hollingsworth
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[Robert I. Eachus]

In article <3dqca1$dob@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> alexy@belknap.dartmouth.edu (Alexy V. Khrabrov) writes:

 > However, the most recent example is the D-day's 50th anniversary,
 > when one in the US could thought the States made the war.  But the
 > fact is, they came in 1944 to the arena prepared, eventually, by
 > 30,000,000 Soviet lives.  The total of the US, I remember, is about
 > several hundred thousand.  The civilian American killed numbered 6
 > (from a rogue Japanese balloon with explosive).

   There were a lot of brave French soldiers who died for their
country in 1940, there were also Free French troops who participated
in the African campaigns and D-Day.  But that does not mean that the
French were a significant factor in winning World War II.

   On the other hand, could the Russians have beaten the Germans
without help?  No.  Could all of the other allies have won without
American participation?  A much closer call, but I think I just have
to point to the Battle of the Atlantic to show that American
participation was required for the British and the Soviet Union to
survive.  Certainly, if the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom had
fallen the war would have lasted MUCH longer, but I can't conclude
that either event would have guaranteed an Axis victory.

   I could quote General Patton, but I'll restrain myself, and instead
point to the case of the USS Lexington.  The Japanese severely damaged
the Lady Lex during the Battle of the Coral Sea, but due to heroic
efforts by the crew and yard crews at two naval bases, she was not
only kept afloat, but was a major player in the Battle of Midway a few
days later.  Notice the use of the word heroic above.  In the American
way of looking at things, you don't have to die or fight to be a war
hero, just do the best you can and help win.  (Another good example,
and appropriate during the fiftieth anniversary of the Battle of the
Bulge, think about why Americans honor those who held out at Bastogne
and in the pocket.)

   Does this have anything to do with Ada?  Only indirectly.  It says
a lot about the American view of software engineering.  Anything which
is percieved as aiding in victory is honored, but one of the chief
benefits of Ada--that failure can be detected early--is ignored when
it is not belittled.  To sell Ada in the American market, we have to
point to contributions to victory, not to cases where Ada avoided
or ameliorated defeat.
--

					Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

Re: Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[Alexy Khrabrov]

In article <EACHUS.95Jan3162751@spectre.mitre.org> eachus@spectre.mitre.org (Rob
ert I. Eachus) writes:

           There were a lot of brave French soldiers who died for their
        country in 1940, there were also Free French troops who participated
        in the African campaigns and D-Day.  But that does not mean that the
        French were a significant factor in winning World War II.

           On the other hand, could the Russians have beaten the Germans
        without help?  No.  Could all of the other allies have won without
        American participation?  A much closer call, but I think I just have
        to point to the Battle of the Atlantic to show that American
        participation was required for the British and the Soviet Union to
        survive.  Certainly, if the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom had
        fallen the war would have lasted MUCH longer, but I can't conclude
        that either event would have guaranteed an Axis victory.

I can add that Free French falcons organized an airforce squadron
in the Soviet Union, called `` Normandia-Neman,'' which was equipped
by the superb Soviet fighters, Yak-9s.  On the end of the war, the 
French were allowed to take the planes home as a present, and they
are preserved in perfect shape until now.  Quite real and different
from ``The Hunt for Red October,'' eh?
        I could argue the idea that without help the Soviet Union
couldn't win.  For instance, American military equipment was real
garbage--the Grant tanks worked on gas and were put on fire just like that.
Actually, the western allies didn't match German T VI H Tigers
(moreover T VI B KingTigers) and their 88mm 71-caliber guns till the
very end.  The Russian T-34 won the title of the ``best WW][ tank.''
When Germans caught one, Hitler realized that nothing better can be made
then, and ordered to copy it _literally_, without divergencies!  Alas,
the German manufacturers were unable to reproduce the unique aluminium
components, the engine, and armor technology.  When making T V Panter,
all possible designs were still copied from T 34.  The latter was
the most massively produced tank (more than 40,000).  When first 14 KingTigers
arrived for a battlefield test to the Eastern Front, they _ALL_ were
shot dead from aside by a single T 34.  In the head KingTiger, its
constructor was killed.  And this notwithstanding that T VI B's were
the first equipped with speed reload system, electric gun vent, and
could fire very fast; also their front armor was 180mm vs T 34 ~100
maximum.
        In the end of the war, the Soviet IS-122 tanks were used, with
a 122mm gun.  The Gereman order forbidded any engagement with them.
In fact, all military equipment on the Soviet side was Soviet, except
for the soldiers preferred to use captured German hand machine guns.
(Russian bullet was a bit less, thus it could be used in the German
rifle, while the German bullet didn't fit the Soviet one!)  The planes,
ships, submarines, artillery, communications--all was Soviet and was
much better than its _tested_ foreign counterparts.  However, the
Eastern front conditions were taken into account in these designs
--initially.
        Still there *is* an area were the US significantly helped.
A good deal of transport was American; and it was superb.  My granddad
was an artillery commander, fighting Japan in 1930s, then the whole
WW][ to Prague, then again Japan finally, then in Berlin, in the
joint effort of denazification and restoration.  Coincidentally,
while at Dartmouth, I met an American artillery major, who was in the
denazification commission on the US side!  And my granddad highly
valued the trucks and commanding cars he used in the final stage of
the war.  He even can put several cars, including his jeep, into
the studebecker truck and go West to pursue!
        The B 29 bombers were refueled under Poltava (the city
my granddad freed almost alone; the proofs in the Moscow museum
of the Soviet Army.)  Personally, I value the cooperation, and
I think it's not well known in the both countries.
        Unfortunately, I couldn't find out any confirmed facts
about the cooperation in Ada military development.  I had known
a member of the joint Politbureau-Government commission in the
former Soviet Union, responsible for the software insertion in
the military.  He admitted there was a SU-DoD program specifically
about Ada, but soon after it was approved ``perestroika'' (chaos)
began and the results are unknown (may be secret)?  I think,
in the light of the recent global partnetship between the US and
Russia, it would be interesting to see an Ada insertion in the
Russian military with competent American assistance.  It may
improve reliability and prevent equipment-provoked conflicts.
And also, though it's unthinkable for an US prog pro to assume
that could be anybody better, I'm sure there are gems in the world
of the secret Soviet software; up until know, many things are
revealed, but we didn't hear about _that_.  I realize that to
overcome some hardware deficiencies, there is a lot of ingenious
doubling, mirroring, and perfect speed optimization.  An example
from hydrodynamics: some advanced algorithms were developed
by Moscow physicist to run simulations on a 64K mainframe--faster
than crude force solutions ran on Cray at that time!


        Alexy V. Khrabrov <khrabrov@cccc.com> 
        ``Age Quod Agis'' (Do what you're doing.)

Re: Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[Norman H. Cohen]

There is a newsgroup named soc.history.war.world-war-ii, which sounds
like the appropriate place to continue this fascinating discussion,
despite the strained attempts to relate it to Ada.

In article <D1wo76.1LI@tigger.jvnc.net>, Alexy Khrabrov <khrabrov@cccc.com
(Alexy V. Khrabrov)> writes: 

|>         Unfortunately, I couldn't find out any confirmed facts
|> about the cooperation in Ada military development.  I had known
|> a member of the joint Politbureau-Government commission in the
|> former Soviet Union, responsible for the software insertion in
|> the military.  He admitted there was a SU-DoD program specifically
|> about Ada, but soon after it was approved ``perestroika'' (chaos)
|> began and the results are unknown (may be secret)?

The only Soviet Ada-related work I'm aware of was on the pragma to
suppress Czechs.

--
Norman H. Cohen    ncohen@watson.ibm.com

Re: Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[Alexy Khrabrov]

In article <3eh2uu$h66@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> ncohen@watson.ibm.com writes:
>The only Soviet Ada-related work I'm aware of was on the pragma to
>suppress Czechs.
>
>--
Probably not ``Czechs,'' but ``Checks?''--Yes, there
were annoying NATO checks, late by just _1_ day.  When
in the early morning, August 20th, 1968, NATO tanks
warmed up their motors to invade from their side, there
was a Soviet tank across the border against every NATO tank.
The armed ``tourists'' went home, and peace was kept.
The Warsaw pact, good or bad, 
was strictly observed, and most important,
the peace was firmly mainained until today.
(I'll restrain myself from political comments.  I don't know
anybody using the word ``politics'' who can explain
what does it mean.  Above are facts.)

_That_ time ``suppress all _checks_'' was a _working_
approach.  I'm not playing ``advocatus diaboli'' here,
but just provide the facts shortly FYI.  I can answer
futher questions in E-mail.

However, thanks for a (strained attempt to :-) rhyme
with an Ada term!  Is it Ada folklore or original?..

My question about the Soviet Ada works is really of
interest, and I ask those in Russia who read c.l.a.
(there are some 1-way connections) to send me E-mail
about relevant data.  

>Norman H. Cohen    ncohen@watson.ibm.com

        Alexy V. Khrabrov <khrabrov@cccc.com>
        ``Age Quod Agis'' (Do what you're doing.)

Re: Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[Alexy Khrabrov]

In article <3eh2uu$h66@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> ncohen@watson.ibm.com writes:
>The only Soviet Ada-related work I'm aware of was on the pragma to
>suppress Czechs.
>
>--
Probably not ``Czechs,'' but ``Checks?''--Yes, there
were annoying NATO checks, late by just _1_ day.  When
in the early morning, August 20th, 1968, NATO tanks
warmed up their motors to invade from their side, there
was a Soviet tank across the border against every NATO tank.
The armed ``tourists'' went home, and peace was kept.
The Warsaw pact, good or bad, 
was strictly observed, and most important,
the peace was firmly mainained until today.
(I'll restrain myself from political comments.  I don't know
anybody using the word ``politics'' who can explain
what does it mean.  Above are facts.)

_That_ time ``suppress all _checks_'' was a _working_
approach.  I'm not playing ``advocatus diaboli'' here,
but just provide the facts shortly FYI.  I can answer
futher questions in E-mail.

However, thanks for a (strained attempt to :-) rhyme
with an Ada term!  Is it Ada folklore or original?..

My question about the Soviet Ada works is really of
interest, and I ask those in Russia who read c.l.a.
(there are some 1-way connections) to send me E-mail
about relevant data.  

>Norman H. Cohen    ncohen@watson.ibm.com

        Alexy V. Khrabrov <khrabrov@cccc.com>
        ``Age Quod Agis'' (Do what you're doing.)

Re: Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[Thomas Vachuska]

Alexy Khrabrov (khrabrov@cccc.com(AlexyV.Khrabrov)) wrote:
: In article <3eh2uu$h66@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> ncohen@watson.ibm.com writes:
: >The only Soviet Ada-related work I'm aware of was on the pragma to
: >suppress Czechs.
: >

[politically loaded opinions deleted]

: (I'll restrain myself from political comments.  I don't know
: anybody using the word ``politics'' who can explain
: what does it mean.  Above are facts.)
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Alexy, Alexy... didn't you think that some formerly ``suppressed Czechs'' - I
like this one Norman ;) - would read this?

I believe that you should have said 'Above is what I've been told are facts.'
It is certainly not what I, my family, or any ``check'' ;) I know remembers.
What was that about rewriting history?

Sorry for contributing to noise pollution in this news group.

Thomas "originally a blank Czech :)" Vachuska  http://arctic.rose.hp.com/~tom/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tom@arctic.rose.hp.com                   (916)-785-4983  (Telnet & Voice Mail)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Soviet Union and Ada are similar

[Alexy V. Khrabrov]

Didn't want to delve into how check suppressions work and
the tradeoffs related, but there's a good Ada analogy :)
	In many systems, including social and program ones,
you don't see the whole picture while you're inside.  There
are ``local variables'' and ``global variables.''  Often, the
local variable hides the global one, and those in control have
to take special measures in order to maintain the whole system
security.  Some local hardship will prevent a global crash,
when the local unit will lose its role completely and worse.
	As for my information, it's from the first hands
of those outsiders who had to think globally--and
I can discuss it whenever, the distribution is ``world'' and
any hidden/explicit checks are welcome!  I sympathize with Czechs and 
Slovaks, but it's an Ada way--security first.  You may dislike
some ``artificial'' measures first, but will admit they worked
as intended later, and approve of them.  Agitated freedom
from anything gets you break-aparts,  all kinds of trouble.
Of course, the balance between external/internal checks ought to
be appropriate, trailing the eternal question about system
design of adapted units vs units reuse--but it's another story :)

--
        Alexy V. Khrabrov <khrabrov@cccc.com>
        ``Age Quod Agis'' (Do what you're doing.)