Re: Ada UK web pages

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Mark Bennison]

brian.orpin@gecm.com (Brian Orpin) wrote:
>Having just come across the Ada UK pages ( http:\\www.adauk.org.uk ) I
>was dismayed to find that they used Frames.

However, if you go to http:\\www.adauk.org.uk\noframe.htm you can access 
the pages ( but I guess you knew that already! ).

>
>I would urge Ada UK to use the standard of the web.
>

Couldn't agree more.

--
Mark Bennison,
Technical Consultant,
EASAMS Software Systems.

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Robert Dewar]

Brian says

<<Ada's strength lies in the fact that it is a standardised language and
that compilers must be validated against that standard.  The Web has a
standard in HTML3.2.  Frames are not part of that standard>>

I was unaware that HTML3.2 was standardized. Can someone give the proper
reference to either the BSI or ISO standard that is referred to here?

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Robert Dewar]

Is there indeed a standard for the Web? If so, can someone quote the BSI
or ISO document numbers. I was not aware things had moved that fast.
Or were you using standard in an informal sense (I assumed not, because
the original thread was referring to the fact that Ada is formally
standardized).

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Kevin Rigotti]

Brian Orpin wrote:
> 
> Having just come across the Ada UK pages ( http:\\www.adauk.org.uk ) I
> was dismayed to find that they used Frames.
Try http://www.adauk.org.uk/noframe.htm

To be honest I didn't find the site particularly wonderful, but I guess
everything has to start somewhere.

Kevin

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Robert I. Eachus]

In article <dewar.861547370@merv> dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar) writes:

  > Is there indeed a standard for the Web? If so, can someone quote
  > the BSI or ISO document numbers. I was not aware things had moved
  > that fast.  Or were you using standard in an informal sense (I
  > assumed not, because the original thread was referring to the fact
  > that Ada is formally standardized).

   Actually, the Web like most of the Internet depends on RFCs.  I'll
look up the RFC for HTML 3.2 if you are interested.

   Now to the hard question are RFCs more or less standard than ISO
standards?  The RFC process results in many RFCs that are superceded
or ignored. (RFC stands for request for comment.)  But there are
others like SMTP (Simple Mail Transport Protocol), MIME (Multimedia
Internet Mail Extensions), and TCP/IP transmission control
protocol/Internet protocol, which are the basis for all of the
Internet and lots of stuff beyond it.
--

					Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Keith Thompson]

In <335b3f24.8679026@news.geccs.gecm.com> brian.orpin@gecm.com (Brian Orpin) writes:
> Having just come across the Ada UK pages ( http:\\www.adauk.org.uk ) I
> was dismayed to find that they used Frames.

I agree.  (Speaking of standards, the "\\" should be "//".)

However, they do provide a non-frames version of their web
page.  Just click on the "Browse with no frames" icon or go to
<http://www.adauk.org.uk/noframe.htm>.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@sd.aonix.com <http://www.aonix.com> <*>
TeleSo^H^H^H^H^H^H Alsy^H^H^H^H Thomson Softw^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Aonix
5040 Shoreham Place, San Diego, CA, USA, 92122-5989
"Humor is such a subjective thing." -- Cartagia

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Keith Thompson]

In <dewar.861370127@merv> dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar) writes:
> I was unaware that HTML3.2 was standardized. Can someone give the proper
> reference to either the BSI or ISO standard that is referred to here?

HTML 3.2 has been endorsed ("as a W3C Recommendation") by the World
Wide Web Consortium.  For more information, see <http://www.w3.org>,
particularly <http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/Press/HTML32-REC-PR.html>.

It's not written in stone the way ISO standards are (8-)}), but W3C's
membership does include most or all of the major web server and browser
vendors.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@sd.aonix.com <http://www.aonix.com> <*>
TeleSo^H^H^H^H^H^H Alsy^H^H^H^H Thomson Softw^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Aonix
5040 Shoreham Place, San Diego, CA, USA, 92122-5989
"Humor is such a subjective thing." -- Cartagia

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Robert Dewar]

Brian said

<<HTML 3.2 reference document as released on the 14 Jan 97 may be found
at http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/TR/REC-html32.html .  This is not ISO or
BSI but it is produced by the standards group of the Web.>>

OK, fine, that's what I thought (that there is no standard in the legal
sense for the Web, this is just an "industry" standard). The distinction
is a significant one, especially since the original message was trying
to draw a connection between the Ada "standard" and the Web "standard",
but in fact they are standardized in quite a different meaning of the
word -- and what is important is that Ada has a legal standard. I am
not saying that industry "standards" are not important, they are often
quite important, just that we have two very different meanings of the
word, which should not be confused.

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Keith Thompson]

Robert Dewar <dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> Brian said
>  
> <<HTML 3.2 reference document as released on the 14 Jan 97 may be found
> at http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/TR/REC-html32.html .  This is not ISO or
> BSI but it is produced by the standards group of the Web.>>
>  
> OK, fine, that's what I thought (that there is no standard in the legal
> sense for the Web, this is just an "industry" standard). The distinction
> is a significant one, especially since the original message was trying
> to draw a connection between the Ada "standard" and the Web "standard",
> but in fact they are standardized in quite a different meaning of the
> word -- and what is important is that Ada has a legal standard. I am
> not saying that industry "standards" are not important, they are often
> quite important, just that we have two very different meanings of the
> word, which should not be confused.

But ISO, ANSI, and BSI are all non-governmental organizations.  I'm not
100% sure about BSI, but the ISO and ANSI web sites state this very
clearly.  See:

    <http://www.iso.ch>
    <http://www.ansi.org>
    <http://www.bsi.org.uk>

ISO is admittedly more widely recognized as a standards body than, say,
W3C or even IEEE, but I don't see any *fundamental* sense in which an
ISO standard is more "legal" than a industry standard from some other
organization.  Ada 83 was also a U.S. military standard as well as an
ANSI/ISO standard, but I don't think Ada 95 is.

(On the other hand, even W3C refers to HTML 3.2 as a "Recommendation"
rather than a standard.)

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@sd.aonix.com <http://www.aonix.com> <*>
TeleSo^H^H^H^H^H^H Alsy^H^H^H^H Thomson Softw^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Aonix
5040 Shoreham Place, San Diego, CA, USA, 92122-5989
"Humor is such a subjective thing." -- Cartagia

Re: Ada UK web pages

[Robert Dewar]

Brian says

<<What exactly is the 'legal standard' of Ada?  AFAIK it is just a fact
of getting a compiler approved.  There is no restriction on a vendor
producing a non-compliant compiler as long as he doesn't say it is.

That is semantics and squirming out of the issue to which you haven't
addressed.  One of the strengths of Ada is its portability.  The use
of FRAMES on the Ada UK site is a very non-portable construct.  So it
smacks of 'do as I say not as I do'.>>

There are at least two legal standards for Ada, the ANSI standard and
the ISO standard, and these have special legal standing in a number of
situations, e.g. in the preference rules for DoD technologies.

There is a big difference between legal standards of this type, and the
informal use of the word standard in the way you used it in connection
with the Web. I have no interest in what the Ada UK site does, and regad
that particular issue as a tempest in a teapot, but I do think the
distinction between the two meanings of the word "standard" is important.