From: bobduff@world.std.com (Robert A Duff)
Subject: Re: Hungarian notation
Date: 1996/05/24
Date: 1996-05-24T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <DrxAqA.92z@world.std.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: dewar.832897378@schonberg
In article <dewar.832897378@schonberg>, Robert Dewar <dewar@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>IWell, I guess they just don't want to comment the code and don't come to ask
>you question anymore. I'm a student in CS, and I know what the students feel.
> When the project is dued soon and don't get the program works, do you still
>have time to comment to code?"
>
>On the contrary, my students know that working code is useless to hand in
>if it is not commented, so they *have* to comment the code. In fact a
>well-commented and well-designed but not quite working assignment gets
>much more credit than a fully working program which is poorly designed,
>or has incomplete or incomprehensible comments.
Well, I'm not an ivory-tower academic like Robert is (*), but I very
much agree with this strategy. The thing people have to learn is that
comments actually help you get the code to work right. Comments are not
just a chore that silly professors require. Somebody who says, "I don't
have time to write all those comments" is missing the point.
>In the case of Ada package specs, comments *are* part of the spec, they
>are as important as the code itself. It is remarkable how students react
>if they know that this is the ground rule. All my students this semester
>did a good job of commenting code!
Well, that's not too surprising, but it doesn't prove anything. My
first-grade teacher required that I put my name on the upper-left-hand
corner of the page. I didn't learn that "In civilized society, it's
right to put one's name on the upper-left-hand corner of the page." I
learned, "To satisfy this teacher, I need to put my name on the
upper-left-hand corner of the page." And I did it. But my second-grade
teacher demanded that I put my name on the upper-RIGHT-hand corner. How
do you convince students that comments are actually *useful*, and
actually make it *easier* to write programs? It's hard, since it's not
true for small programs.
I once read an article by some professor who had written a program that
judged the "style" of programs submitted for assignments. He judged
this program a success, because after some time, students' programs did
in fact get better style ratings, according to this style-judging
program. Circular reasoning. (The program counted the number of lines
of comments per line of code, the average length of identifiers, and so
forth.)
- Bob
P.S. (*) I hope Robert realizes I'm kidding about "ivory-tower
academics". ;-) He has, in fact, participated in professional
programming projects.
P.P.S. My take on comments is: Comment (only) where necessary. Whenever
you can express some fact in the programming language, it's better to do
that than to write a comment. Any time you feel the need to write a
comment, that's a failure of the programming language -- it can't
express what you need to say. Note that lower-level languages need more
comments than higher-level languages. But we're very far from having
programming languages that can express everything that needs to be said.
So we badly need comments.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1996-05-24 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 227+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <4adem2$b5s@mercury.IntNet.net>
[not found] ` <4ahka7$o9m@inrou.erno.de>
1996-05-13 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Roger Merritt
1996-05-14 0:00 ` David Priest
1996-05-14 0:00 ` The Right Reverend Colin James III
1996-05-15 0:00 ` Graham Perkins
1996-05-15 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-05-16 0:00 ` Pete Becker
1996-05-14 0:00 ` Keith Whittingham
1996-05-14 0:00 ` Dr S.J. Harris
1996-05-15 0:00 ` Gerolf Wendland
1996-05-16 0:00 ` mAg
1996-05-17 0:00 ` Arne W Flones
1996-05-21 0:00 ` Norman L. Reitzel
1996-05-21 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-22 0:00 ` Peter Moylan
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Andy Ho-Fan Chan
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Robert A Duff [this message]
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Janus
1996-05-29 0:00 ` Chris Kuan
1996-05-29 0:00 ` Bob Rodgers
1996-05-30 0:00 ` Chris Kuan
1996-05-29 0:00 ` Michael Furman
1996-05-31 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-31 0:00 ` Commenting (was Re: Hungarian notation) Alan Bowler
1996-05-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-03 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1996-06-01 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Warren Young
1996-06-01 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-06-03 0:00 ` Warren Young
1996-05-31 0:00 ` Will Rose
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-06-07 0:00 ` Michael Furman
1996-06-01 0:00 ` Heinz Hemken
1996-06-02 0:00 ` Matt Kennel
1996-06-02 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-06-06 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Bob Rodgers
1996-05-27 0:00 ` Peter Moylan
1996-05-27 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-05-27 0:00 ` The Amorphous Mass
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-05-28 0:00 ` The Amorphous Mass
1996-05-29 0:00 ` Comments was: " Bob Lang 3P21 x3172
1996-05-30 0:00 ` Kevin Cline
[not found] ` <4odgjh$6o@carrera.intergate.bc.ca>
1996-05-28 0:00 ` try to run this! - try_me.exe [3/4] Otmar Conradus
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-31 0:00 ` The Last Word on Comments (was Re: Hungarian notation) Clark L. Coleman
1996-06-03 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
1996-06-13 0:00 ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-06-13 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
1996-06-15 0:00 ` Train
1996-06-18 0:00 ` Sandy McPherson
1996-06-18 0:00 ` David Zink
1996-06-19 0:00 ` Michael Furman
1996-06-20 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-23 0:00 ` David Zink
1996-06-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-28 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-06-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-11 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-11 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-12 0:00 ` steidl
1996-07-12 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-07-12 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-29 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-06-29 0:00 ` steidl
1996-06-20 0:00 ` The Last Word on Comments (was Re: Hun Ian Ward
1996-06-05 0:00 ` The Last Word on Comments (was Re: Hungarian notation) Peter Moylan
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Mike Fulton
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Steve Howard
1996-06-06 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Shane Badham
1996-06-13 0:00 ` Steve Sobol
1996-06-14 0:00 ` Re-designing CS (long) (Was: Re: The Last Word on Comments) Warren Young
1996-06-21 0:00 ` Re-designing CS (long) Warren Young
1996-06-24 0:00 ` Brian J. Quandt
1996-06-06 0:00 ` The Last Word on Comments (was Re: Hungarian notation) Bob Lang 3P21 x3172
1996-06-08 0:00 ` Bill Hay
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Derek Lee Beatty
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Darius Blasbans
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Darius Blasbans
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Darius Blasbans
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Darius Blasbans
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Darius Blasbans
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Kevin J. Weise
1996-06-13 0:00 ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-06-13 0:00 ` Kevin Cline
1996-06-12 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-17 0:00 ` James McKim
1996-06-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-06 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Ralph Silverman
1996-06-06 0:00 ` David Hopkins
1996-06-07 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-06-07 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-06-10 0:00 ` Michael Furman
1996-06-12 0:00 ` Warren Young
1996-06-07 0:00 ` Hungarian notation (an aside) Bob Lang 3P21 x3172
1996-06-06 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Sam Hunting
1996-06-11 0:00 ` I wish it was "The Last Word on Comments (was Re: Hungarian notation)" Blair MacIntyre
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Robert Dewar
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-29 0:00 ` Kevin Cline
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Kevin Cline
1996-05-25 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-05-25 0:00 ` Hungarian notation: the thread of choice for consummate boors The Right Reverend Colin James III
1996-05-27 0:00 ` Ken Nicolson
[not found] ` <HFsHoD96w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Jon Hornstein
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Ralph Silverman
1996-06-06 0:00 ` James McKim
1996-06-07 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-06-06 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-05-26 0:00 ` Warren Young
1996-06-03 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen
1996-05-21 0:00 ` Bob Rodgers
1996-05-22 0:00 ` Matt Kennel
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Bob Rodgers
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-05-22 0:00 ` Slander (was: Hungarian notation) Graham Perkins
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Tucker Taft
1996-05-22 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Michael Furman
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Peter Moylan
1996-06-10 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-05-18 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Laurent Guerby
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Please keep Hungarian notation thread OUT of comp.lang.modula3 Tim Mann
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Hungarian notation Robert I. Eachus
1996-05-23 0:00 ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Paul J. Kossick
1996-05-25 0:00 ` Raoul De Kezel
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-06-05 0:00 ` jthorpe
1996-06-06 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-06-07 0:00 ` Chris Kuan
1996-06-07 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-06-07 0:00 ` The Amorphous Mass
1996-06-10 0:00 ` Michael Furman
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Kevin Cline
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Chris Engebretson
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-06-12 0:00 ` Bob Rodgers
1996-06-12 0:00 ` Matt Kennel
1996-06-13 0:00 ` Giuliano Carlini
1996-06-13 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-06-22 0:00 ` Richard Green
1996-06-11 0:00 ` Will Rose
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-05-14 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-05-14 0:00 ` Pete Becker
[not found] ` <4ndb2j$1p0q@uni.library.ucla.edu>
1996-05-16 0:00 ` Mark Chu-Carroll
1996-05-16 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1996-05-17 0:00 ` Scott
1996-05-23 0:00 ` G.O.Visser
1996-05-16 0:00 ` Scott
1996-05-16 0:00 ` Giuliano Carlini
1996-05-18 0:00 ` Warren Young
1996-05-16 0:00 ` Steve Branam
1996-05-16 0:00 ` Matt Kennel
1996-05-14 0:00 ` Dave Mikesell
1996-05-16 0:00 ` Dave Toland
1996-05-21 0:00 ` mAg
1996-05-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Bob Rodgers
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Train
1996-05-23 0:00 ` jeffos2
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-05-24 0:00 ` slary61
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Dave Toland
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Jerry Kuch
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Jos A. Horsmeier
1996-05-26 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
1996-05-27 0:00 ` Warren Young
1996-06-03 0:00 ` Eva
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Paul D. DeRocco
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Ian Ward
1996-05-27 0:00 ` Norman L. Reitzel
1996-05-27 0:00 ` Matt Kennel
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1996-05-29 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-06-01 0:00 ` Michael Feldman
1996-05-29 0:00 ` AJ Musgrove
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-06-06 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-05-21 0:00 ` Bob Lang 3P21 x3172
1996-05-21 0:00 ` Mark A Biggar
1996-05-21 0:00 ` slary61
1996-05-24 0:00 ` Oleg Kagan
1996-06-05 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-05-23 0:00 ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Homonnai Misi
1996-05-28 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff
1996-05-20 0:00 ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1996-05-20 0:00 ` Tom Wheeley
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Steve Willer
1996-05-22 0:00 ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1996-05-23 0:00 ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1996-05-23 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1996-06-01 0:00 ` Jim Kingdon
1996-06-10 0:00 Bob Crispen
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-05-15 0:00 Bob Crispen
[not found] <30C40F77.53B5@swsbbs.com>
[not found] ` <30EF0415.6FE1@tus.ssi1.com>
[not found] ` <1996Jan7.045815.8676@ohstpy>
[not found] ` <4cpb00$nqk@news.xmission.com>
1996-01-08 0:00 ` Michael Feathers
1996-01-08 0:00 ` vancleef
1996-01-09 0:00 ` Todd Knarr
1996-01-09 0:00 ` Michael Feathers
[not found] ` <hawkfish-0801960904580001@blv-pm3-ip24.halcyon.com>
1996-01-09 0:00 ` Todd Knarr
[not found] ` <marnoldDJEvtJ.1Lx@netcom.com>
[not found] ` <4aleun$jlk@ns.RezoNet.NET>
[not found] ` <marnoldDJMDBG.CFz@netcom.com>
[not found] ` <4asnkr$7b0@solutions.solon.com>
[not found] ` <4ath75$e7i@barnacle.iol.ie>
[not found] ` <4b4kij$svt@news.microsoft.com>
[not found] ` <dewar.819489496@schonberg>
[not found] ` <4bd <4cne0e$1020@seminole.gate.net>
1996-01-08 0:00 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-01-08 0:00 ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-01-08 0:00 ` Michael Feathers
[not found] ` <4cd8fc$oud@news.manawatu.gen.nz>
1996-01-08 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
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