* Re: Looking for Ada programmers
1996-03-24 0:00 ` The Right Reverend Colin James III
@ 1996-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-03-25 0:00 ` Jerry van Dijk
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Robert Dewar @ 1996-03-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
CJIII said
"It is ISO9000 ratings that are magic in Europe, which in terms of
software development sophistication is clearly far ahead of the US."
Well I won't comment on the extremely dubious claim in the second part
of this, being very familiar with the software scene on both sides of
the pond, but it is worth noting that ISO9000 certification (it is not
a "ratings" scheme at all) is a very different matter from the SEI
ratings. Having been involved in an ISO9000 certification, I certainly
think it is a useful discipline, but you have to remember that ISO9000
is a very general quality standard, applicable to a large range of
endeavors, whereas of course the SEI ratings are far more specific.
Both are valuable tools, with quite different applicability.
The importance of ISO 9000 certification certainly varies a lot. Almost
all major Indian companies are ISO9000 certified, and everywhere you look,
for example on billboards in the street, companies manufacturing everything
you can imagine trumpet their ISO 9000 certification status. I agree that
ISO9000 has more presence in Europe than here, but it certainly is not
at that level yet :-)
Perhaps on the CJIII scale Indian software development sophistication is
even further ahead than in Europe. Certainly I haven't run into the
dreaded Booch methodology very often there (though perhaps someone
from Rational will want to tell me where to look :-). On the other hand
I doubt they spend their days worrying about second order predicate
logic either :-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread* Re: Looking for Ada programmers
1996-03-24 0:00 ` The Right Reverend Colin James III
1996-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
@ 1996-03-25 0:00 ` Jerry van Dijk
1996-03-26 0:00 ` Alan Brain
1996-03-25 0:00 ` Alan Brain
1996-03-27 0:00 ` JoAn Ferguson
3 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Jerry van Dijk @ 1996-03-25 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
The Right Reverend Colin James III (cjames@melchizedek.cec-services.com)
wrote with deletions:
: It is ISO9000 ratings that are magic in Europe
Being over there, I can agree on that. Of course, the company
I work for has ISO certificates, but then, so has my garage.
From my viewpoint (and I have been involved in both AQAP and ISO
certifications) ISO9000 is mostly a marketing device which doesn't
really interests the customers that much.
The main value of ISO9000 is in getting the paperwork straight, it
has little to no impact on the contents of the actual production process.
Basically ISO9000 says: do what you like, but document it.
An example I am very fond of is the PC mail order shop. If they
want a ISO certificate, they have to document their procedures and
checks and etc.
That might go like this:
1. If customer calls to order a PC, write it in the log.
2. Call the warehouse to get the PC ready for shipping.
3. Boss checks order and OK's price.
4. Warehouse on fourth floor drops PC out of the window.
5. Picks up bits and pieces left and puts them in box.
6. Send box to customer.
Proudly announce ISO quality certification!
As long as they will strictly obey this routine and have auditable procedures
to check their obedience, they will keep their ISO9000 certificate too!
As you can see the value of ISO9000 certification for the customer is a bit
overrated. :-)
However, I hasten to add that does not mean that ISO9000 isn't valuable.
But that, in my experience, the benefit is not so much for the customer
but in the re-evaluation and re-organisation of the company involved.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Jerry van Dijk -- e-mail: jerry@jvdsys.nextjk.stuyts.nl --
-- Banking Consultant -- Member Team-Ada --
-- Ordina Finance BV -- Located at Haarlem, The Netherlands --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- I do not speak for my employer, my employer does not speak for me --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Looking for Ada programmers
1996-03-25 0:00 ` Jerry van Dijk
@ 1996-03-26 0:00 ` Alan Brain
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Alan Brain @ 1996-03-26 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
jerry@jvdsys.nextjk.stuyts.nl (Jerry van Dijk) wrote:
>The Right Reverend Colin James III (cjames@melchizedek.cec-services.com)
>wrote with deletions:
>: It is ISO9000 ratings that are magic in Europe
>Being over there, I can agree on that. Of course, the company
>I work for has ISO certificates, but then, so has my garage.
>The main value of ISO9000 is in getting the paperwork straight, it
>has little to no impact on the contents of the actual production process.
>Basically ISO9000 says: do what you like, but document it.
Tag, Jerry
I assumed that since the context of the article was about Software
Process Control ( he went on about CMM etc ) that what he probably meant
was the ISO SPICE effort :
http://www-sqi.cit.gu.edu.au/spice/welcome.html
rather than ISO 9001 per se ( 9001 being the ISO standard on Software
Engineering, 9000 being general Quality Provisions). AS 3567 is the
Australian equivalent anyway for Oz lurkers.
That's why I just referred to 'the ISO standard' in my reply.
Tot Struiks
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Looking for Ada programmers
1996-03-24 0:00 ` The Right Reverend Colin James III
1996-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-03-25 0:00 ` Jerry van Dijk
@ 1996-03-25 0:00 ` Alan Brain
1996-03-27 0:00 ` JoAn Ferguson
3 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Alan Brain @ 1996-03-25 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
cjames@melchizedek.cec-services.com (The Right Reverend Colin James III) wrote with
deletions:
>vossj@apci.net (John L Voss) posted with deletions:
>| Harris Data Services Corporation is ... a CMM Level 3 organization that
>| is aggressively pursuing a CMM Level 4 rating.
>Nobody cares about CMM Levels ( -9 ... +9) anymore because SEI no
>longer is a major player in international software development.
>It is ISO9000 ratings that are magic in Europe, which in terms of
>software development sophistication is clearly far ahead of the US,
>still dinking around with unifying ambiguous methodologies, such as
>Booch, Jacobson, and Booch, from which designs output therefrom can
>not be verified correct by second-order predicate logic.
Jein.
CMM is very big in the States. Even now, level 3 going-on 4 is a good guide
to where the organisation is heading. IMHO - and very much IMHO - CMM is
suboptimal for assessing the Capability of a firm. It is, however, an excellent
checklist for Process Control on what you should be doing. I speak as someone
who was tasked with getting a major European Electronics Firm a level 3
certification (and succeeded).
Agree the ISO standard is/will be miles better for the purposes CMM was designed
for. Both the USA and Europe are heterogenous, with some areas very advanced,
other 'methodologically challenged', so generalisations are iffy. But you're
more right than wrong.
Disagree with your 'unifying ambiguous methodologies' bit. 2nd order predicate
logic sounds like a FOPA ( little mathematical pun there, sorry ). I'd appreciate
some enlightenment on this, as frankly, I didn't see the connection.
>| We're looking for individuals with experience in C++ and Ada.
>Strange, antithetical bedfellows.
Concur 100%.
>Colin James III, Principal Scientist cjames@cec-services.com
Yup, CJIII can write reasonable material if he tries. I'm ignoring the
combative tone. But some points I... I... I AGREE with (There, I've said
it, and blown what little credibility I had left in taking anything he
says seriously.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Looking for Ada programmers
1996-03-24 0:00 ` The Right Reverend Colin James III
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
1996-03-25 0:00 ` Alan Brain
@ 1996-03-27 0:00 ` JoAn Ferguson
3 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: JoAn Ferguson @ 1996-03-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Some info on CMM organizations outside of the US:
According to the SEI's "Process Maturity Profile of the Software
Community 1995 Update":
"U.S. and offshore profiles virtually the same" (i.e., no statistical
significant differences between U.S. and offshore Organizational
Maturity Profiles). The statistics:
Level 1 -- Initial
U.S. 70%
Offshore 71%
Level 2 -- Repeatable
U.S. 19%
Offshore 15%
Level 3 -- Defined
U.S. 10%
Offshore 13%
Level 4 -- Managed
U.S. 1%
Offshore <1%
Level 5 - Optimizing
U.S. <1%
Offshore 1%
Based on 368 US organizations and 72 offshore organizations.
-------------------------------------------------------------
JoAn L. Ferguson E-Systems, Falls Church Division
joan@era.com 1595 Spring Hill Road
Vienna, Virginia 22182-2235
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread