Marketing Ada

Marketing Ada

[Mark A. Breland]

In article 18550@seas.gwu.edu, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
>
>You'd be amazed at the number of people who think that Ada is exclusively
>a US DoD toy. The point for net readers, and their friends, and their
>friends' friends, is that there are a number of documented projects
>beyond the DoD in organizations that have chosen Ada. This knowledge,
>and the growing use of Ada as a serious educational language, is intended
>to strengthen the hand of those whose supervisors or colleagues resist
>Ada because "nobody but DoD uses it." I'm doing what I can to create a
>positive, rather than a negative, self-fulfilling prophecy.

An incredible amount of energy has been expended on c.l.a indicting users
and mandators of Ada for failing to champion the language to a broader
compputing audience.  Being a diehard pragmatist, I always wondered why
those with the most to gain (e.g., compiler vendors) did not wave the flag
and mount the charge to lead this proselytizing effort.  So when the chance
came recently to gain some insight, I unembarrassedly asked many somewhat
obnoxious questions of the senior Products VP for one of the top 5 Ada
compiler vendors.

The most telling question was:  "Why don't you, the Company, seek to market
Ada as a language; thereby expanding your customer base, generating more
revenue, and strategically securing the Company's position within the
marketplace?"

The answer: "We don't have the marketing personnel resources for that; we
already have a strong niche within the existing market; the target user for
Ada is already aware of Ada's benefits (doesn't need to be sold); the target
user consists of the complex, embedded, _large_ system community (i.e.,
volume of compilers sold is meaningless); we don't know how to market the
merits of Ada to the global community (and don't want to); and (to be
expected) insert_C/C++_flame_here."

Well, that part of me that wears the little green accountant's visor hat
was utterly dumbfounded.  But even worse, I strongly suspect that the
Company mentioned above is not alone.  Rather, I venture to say that ALL
the major Ada compiler vendors have adopted the same philosophy.  In essence,
they feel they have a captive customer base with which they are quite content
to continue conducting business with.  They consider themselves busy enough
meeting the concerns and desires of _that_ customer base without introducing
the complexity of a more eclectic user mix.  To their credit, they are
successful in their innovations as requested by existing customers, they just
don't care to raise their horizons any further.

So...unless a company with an attitude like Borland shows up on the scene,
don't expect to see *any* Ada marketing hype directed at the masses.

---
Mark A. Breland - Microelectronics and Computer Technology Corporation (MCC)
Ada Fault Tolerance                               | voice:    (512) 338-3509
3500 West Balcones Center Drive                   | FAX:      (512) 338-3900
Austin, Texas 78759-6509   USA                    | internet: breland@mcc.com

Re: Marketing Ada

[Gregory Aharonian]

Mark Breland concludes:

>So...unless a company with an attitude like Borland shows up on the scene,
>don't expect to see *any* Ada marketing hype directed at the masses.

   Unfortunately, things are worse than this, since a fair number of DoD
software policies implicitly assume certain levels of Ada acceptance in
the general marketplace (to provide the DoD with the programmers, tools
and libraries) to meet DoD goals.  With the STANFINS fiasco, having 
someone strongly publicly push for Ada becomes even more important so
that Ada is accepted enough to have the marketplace provide the supply
of programmers, libraries and tools needed to meet DoD software goals.

   Thus it is not just sad that the Ada vendors (as well as the DoD and
contractors like the STARS people) have dropped the Ada marketing ball.
If it gets any worse, it probably will become a mild threat to national
security, as it becomes more difficult for the DoD to meet its software
needs on a diminished budget.

    However, as much of the grapevine that I monitor suspects, there is
a fair chance within the next few years that the DoD will drop the Ada
mandate as unworkable.  When even the outrageously biased and yes-man
Mosemann studies say that Ada currently is only marginally more economical
than C/C++ (read the TRW) section, with C++ catching up, the reality is
probably in C++'s favor, which the generals eventually will be unable to
ignore.

J'accuse.

Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimization
-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Re: Marketing Ada

[Thomas N Erickson]

breland@mcc.com (Mark A. Breland) writes:


>Well, that part of me that wears the little green accountant's visor hat
>was utterly dumbfounded.  But even worse, I strongly suspect that the
>Company mentioned above is not alone.  Rather, I venture to say that ALL
>the major Ada compiler vendors have adopted the same philosophy.  In essence,
>they feel they have a captive customer base with which they are quite content
>to continue conducting business with.  They consider themselves busy enough
>meeting the concerns and desires of _that_ customer base without introducing
>the complexity of a more eclectic user mix.  To their credit, they are
>successful in their innovations as requested by existing customers, they just
>don't care to raise their horizons any further.


Don't count Alsys in the above.  We are positive about the future of Ada
outside of defense and are doing things about it.  The efforts are
extremely targetted at this time, but next year (94) should see a much
broader emphasis.  

Tom Erickson
Group Vice-President, Marketing
Alsys

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Erickson					Alsys
tne@world.std.com				67 South Bedford Street
						Burlington, MA 01803

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <C3LrA2.7zB@world.std.com> tne@world.std.com (Thomas N Erickson) writes:

[stuff deleted]
>
>Don't count Alsys in the above.  We are positive about the future of Ada
>outside of defense and are doing things about it.  The efforts are
>extremely targetted at this time, but next year (94) should see a much
>broader emphasis.  
>
Ummm - excuse me for being skeptical, Tom. I've been around Ada for 10
years (actually more, but let's start from 1815A's adoption). What I've
heard EVERY year from all the vendors I've spoken to (and that's most
of the ones whose names we'd all recognize) is "well, that's great but
we really don't have the budget to do that big marketing push just now,
so you'll have to wait till next year." After 10 "next year's", I'm still
waiting for the magical next year. Somehow I don't think it would be
prudent for me to hold my breath...

Reminds me of a song I used to hear on the radio as a kid:

"Manana, manana, manana is soon enough for me." (Sorry, I couldn't
put tildes on the first n's - it's Spanish for "tomorrow", right?)

'Nuff said.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"The most important thing is to be sincere, 
and once you've learned how to fake that, you've got it made." 
-- old show-business adage
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1993Mar9.042400.2812@seas.gwu.edu> mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
>In article <C3LrA2.7zB@world.std.com> tne@world.std.com (Thomas N Erickson) writes:
>
>[stuff deleted]
>>
>>Don't count Alsys in the above.  We are positive about the future of Ada
>>outside of defense and are doing things about it.  The efforts are
>>extremely targetted at this time, but next year (94) should see a much
>>broader emphasis.  
>>
>Ummm - excuse me for being skeptical, Tom. I've been around Ada for 10
>years (actually more, but let's start from 1815A's adoption). What I've
>heard EVERY year from all the vendors I've spoken to (and that's most
>of the ones whose names we'd all recognize) is "well, that's great but
>we really don't have the budget to do that big marketing push just now,
>so you'll have to wait till next year." After 10 "next year's", I'm still
>waiting for the magical next year. Somehow I don't think it would be
>prudent for me to hold my breath...
>
[stuff deleted]

Colleagues:

I owe you all an apology.

It has come to my attention through private correspondence that these
comments were open to serious misinterpretation as a direct slur 
on Alsys or, worse, on Tom. Au contraire, Tom is one of the few Ada-
industry officials who reads and responds to the net on a regular basis.
It's apparent that he is doing his best to keep his ear to the ground
and respond informatively where doing so is pertinent. In this he
deserves encouragement.

And Alsys has gone, in about 18 months' time, from perhaps the least 
education-friendly vendor to one of the most friendly. Their academic
pricing (what they call the LEAP program) is aggressive and affordable,
and their people are generally friendly and helpful, in my recent
experience. The number of Alsys entries in the "Who's Using Ada
Report" demonstrates both their growing non-defense customer base
and their willingness to have this publicized.

My skepticism is generic and was aimed at the industry as a whole, not
at Alsys in particular. We have heard ten years' worth of grand plans
for building a bigger Ada market. Indeed, the fast-growing list of non-
defense projects suggests that some of these plans may be bearing fruit.
I certainly hope so! Maybe it'll be different this time.

I remain skeptical about whether the industry in general really knows
how to build markets. I fear that the Ada vendors may be all too typical
of defense companies, which even as we speak are tearing their hair out
trying to figure out how to cope in the post-Cold War world (see today's
news for some Clinton-administration discussion of this matter). The
Ada companies perceived their market to be mainly DoD-oriented and 
captive and, in their myopia, missed the C++ wave coming and never
built up marketing and sales expertise to break Ada loose from its
defense origins and give it a real life of its own. 

There are signs of change, but - without slamming any one company 
or individual - I think our skepticism is well-founded and even
constructive. 

Today's buzzword is "dual-use technology" - technology useful for both
defense and non-defense applications. Ada is a _programming language_ and
a damn good one, and as such is - without changing a byte of a compiler
or a letter of the LRM - dual-use technology. My hope is that all the
Ada companies will realize what a gem they've got, and find the imagination
and the funds to really let the world know. I think they can do it.

Alsys, Tom, I apologize for writing what seemed to be an ad hominem slam.
I've tried very hard not to write such stuff to the net, and to be a voice
of reason here. I blew this one, I guess. 

My generic skepticism still stands. I would be delighted to be proved wrong!

Cheers all -

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"The most important thing is to be sincere, 
and once you've learned how to fake that, you've got it made." 
-- old show-business adage
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Marketing Ada

[Mark A. Breland]

In article 13805@seas.gwu.edu, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
>
>I remain skeptical about whether the industry in general really knows
>how to build markets. I fear that the Ada vendors may be all too typical
>of defense companies, which even as we speak are tearing their hair out
>trying to figure out how to cope in the post-Cold War world (see today's
>news for some Clinton-administration discussion of this matter). The
>Ada companies perceived their market to be mainly DoD-oriented and 
>captive and, in their myopia, missed the C++ wave coming and never
>built up marketing and sales expertise to break Ada loose from its
>defense origins and give it a real life of its own. 

To carry your analogy further, Mike, several vendors have elected to jump
on the new C++ bandwagon rather than propel Ada forward on its own merits.
So what we'll soon see are vendors with product lines supporting Ada, C,
AND C++.  This reactive response is typical of defense contractors (not all
mind you), who tend to jump with the latest technology, leaving perfectly
good products behind.  I fear such an environment will cause Ada to languish
in a pitiful pool of ignominy.

>There are signs of change, but - without slamming any one company 
>or individual - I think our skepticism is well-founded and even
>constructive. 

How true.

---
Mark A. Breland - Microelectronics and Computer Technology Corporation (MCC)
Ada Fault Tolerance                               | voice:    (512) 338-3509
3500 West Balcones Center Drive                   | FAX:      (512) 338-3900
Austin, Texas 78759-6509   USA                    | internet: breland@mcc.com

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1993Mar12.140219.5705@mcc.com> breland@mcc.com writes:

[stuff deleted]
>
>To carry your analogy further, Mike, several vendors have elected to jump
>on the new C++ bandwagon rather than propel Ada forward on its own merits.
>So what we'll soon see are vendors with product lines supporting Ada, C,
>AND C++.  This reactive response is typical of defense contractors (not all
>mind you), who tend to jump with the latest technology, leaving perfectly
>good products behind.  I fear such an environment will cause Ada to languish
>in a pitiful pool of ignominy.

Well, don't give up hope yet. So far, the vendors aren't really abandoning
Ada, even if they are diversifying into C++, and most of them are. From the
myopic business perspective we've been discussing here, it only makes good
sense for them to go where the bucks are, especially if (as in Meridian's
CASE case), they are just selling a tool they've licensed from somewhere
else and didn't put resources into.

I've used another imprefect analogy about the Mandate: it's protectionism
and can be seen as analogous to Detroit's demand for protection from the
Yellow Peril. Mr. Iacocca's company (and the others too, but he's he most
vocally hypocritical) sells tremendous numbers of Asian cars, and US
cars with Asian engines, even while he screams for protection. Assuming
the Ada industry had something to do with the call for the Mandate (and I
don't really know whether they did, but I guess it's a safe assumption),
they wanted Congressional protection for Ada even while they diversify into
C++. If the Mandate was written with _no_ industry prodding, I'll stand
corrected.
>
>>There are signs of change, but - without slamming any one company 
>>or individual - I think our skepticism is well-founded and even
>>constructive. 
>
>How true.
>
Glad you agree. Let's keep letting them know, publicly and privately, our
thoughts on this.

Mike Feldman

Marketing Ada

[tmoran]

Michael Feldman remarked that many women see C as 'macho'.  That raises
the question of what are the demographic or personality similarities and
differences between current Ada and C* users.  Seems to me that any
marketing campaign should have that sort of information.

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <3cflgt$h3q@news1.delphi.com>,  <tmoran@bix.com> wrote:
>Michael Feldman remarked that many women see C as 'macho'.  That raises
>the question of what are the demographic or personality similarities and
>differences between current Ada and C* users.  Seems to me that any
>marketing campaign should have that sort of information.

I think I'd better explain that remark a bit better. A female colleague
gave me a copy of a set of free-firm responses to a question sent to
the "systers" mailing list, which is an e-mail discussion group for
women in computing. The question, as I recall, was mainly aimed at
teachers, and was something like "do you think that C turns off your
female students." 

I think the context was the never-ending discussion in
CS education circles about whether C should be taught as a first
language. The question, then, was whether C as the _intro language_
would effectively discourage females from entering CS.

It was an interesting angle on the problem of righting the balance
between men and women in CS; it had never occurred to me that this
might be a factor.

The results were free-form, untabulated, with the names and affiliations
removed. It was clear from the wording that the messages came mostly from
teachers and advanced students. To oversimplify the results, the
split of opinion was roughly 50-50 on the issue. The responses ranged
from "not a problem" to "the C hacker culture is a turnoff to women."
The emphasis seemed to be in the C culture, not on the language.

I don't want my remarks to be misquoted or taken out of context.
I also don't intend any of this as flame bait; I'm just reporting
on some stuff I read. This was an informal, e-mail survey, not a 
market study. That as many as half the respondents agreed with the
premise "The C culture turns off many female students" was an
interesting, if anecdotal, result. It served to strengthen my 
conviction that, whatever C is appropriate for, is is not an
appropriate first language. But I "knew" that already.

So what does this have to do with Ada?  I have two close female
colleagues who are part of our group teaching a lot of undergrad
courses. One has taught Ada at CS2 level a number of times; the other
has not. Neither one is an Ada evangelist, but neither is especially
opposed. They are both quite outspoken, and if either one believed
that the Ada culture was a turnoff to female students, I'd hear
about it pretty fast. 

I have heard no such thing. Indeed, I've taught Ada many times at CS1 
and CS2 levels, and find that, if anything, my female students (and 
my male ones) come to appreciate the robustness and portability of
their Ada code, and really like the idea that Ada is in use in
critical systems that affect their lives - commercial aviation
especially, but also high-speed rail and other day-to-day domains.

I have mostly my own and my colleagues' experience to go by, no
"market study" or anything like that, but - whatever problems Ada
faces in gaining wide acceptance - one we don't have to worry about
much is the "turns off females" issue.

If anyone in net-land is a systers member, you might ask that
group to describe their perceptions of Ada, as a teaching language,
and in general. The results would, I think, be very interesting.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman -  chair, SIGAda Education Working Group
Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University -  Washington, DC 20052 USA
202-994-5919 (voice) - 202-994-0227 (fax) - mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
         Ada on the World-Wide Web: http://lglwww.epfl.ch/Ada/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Illegitimi non carborundum." (Don't let the bastards grind you down.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Marketing Ada

[Carlos Perez]

Michael Feldman (mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu) wrote:
: If anyone in net-land is a systers member, you might ask that
: group to describe their perceptions of Ada, as a teaching language,
: and in general. The results would, I think, be very interesting.

I would like to add, does the fact that the language is named after the
first programmer, a woman, send any particular positive (or negative)
message to female programmers?  Don't flame me, I'm just curious...

--
-- Carlos Perez                               "My other car is Ada"
-- perez@oldcolo.com
-- team Ada (Ada95:  object-oriented, multi-threaded, totally-cool)

Re: Marketing Ada

[CONDIC]

From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
Subject: Re: Marketing Ada
Original_To:  PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
Original_cc:  CONDIC



Michael Feldman <mfeldman@SEAS.GWU.EDU> writes:
>
>If anyone in net-land is a systers member, you might ask that
>group to describe their perceptions of Ada, as a teaching language,
>and in general. The results would, I think, be very interesting.
>
Don't you think that there is a _slight_ possibility that the
individuals subscribing to a newsgroup called "systers" might
just be ever so slightly biased towards a particular agenda and
are, at best, a self-selected group and are thus guaranteed not
to be a random sampling of women in computer science? Is it at
all possible that some individuals in such a group might be out
there looking for "sexism" or "male domination" in almost
_anything_?

Mike, I'll say it again. It is a *BIG* mistake trying to
interject a notion that computer languages can be "sexist" or in
any way give credibility to a misperception that C or any
language is part of a "Macho" culture. It will only politicize
something which ought not be a political issue.

I'm not against depicting women as users of Ada in an interest of
broadening the audience. But let's not turn computer languages
into another battleground of "sexism" by even entertaining the
thought that it could or should be.

Pax,
Marin

Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer    ATT:        407.796.8997
M/S 731-93                                      Technet:    796.8997
Pratt & Whitney, GESP                           Internet:   CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
P.O. Box 109600                                 Internet:   MDCONDIC@AOL.COM
West Palm Beach, FL 33410-9600
===============================================================================
    "Nobody shot me."

        --  Last words of Frank Gusenberg when asked by police who
            shot him fourteen times with a machine gun in the Saint
            Valentine's Day Massacre.
===============================================================================

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <3cjbqg$9bf@news-2.csn.net>, Carlos Perez <perez@oldcolo.com> wrote:
>Michael Feldman (mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu) wrote:

[snip]

>I would like to add, does the fact that the language is named after the
>first programmer, a woman, send any particular positive (or negative)
>message to female programmers?  Don't flame me, I'm just curious...

Somewhere in each course, I usually do a "culture" lecture - history 
and status of Ada, a bit on the history of language standards, etc. 
We talk about Ada the person. The female students generally grin at 
finding out who Ada was, and that it's not the Aerican Dental Association. 
Then again, the guys usually grin, too. :-)

I think Ada is much less associated with macho programming than C,
at least among students. I can't speak for industry; I don't know.

Mike Feldman

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <INFO-ADA%94121308190346@VM1.NODAK.EDU>,
 <CONDIC@PSAVAX.PWFL.COM> wrote:

>Don't you think that there is a _slight_ possibility that the
>individuals subscribing to a newsgroup called "systers" might
>just be ever so slightly biased towards a particular agenda and
>are, at best, a self-selected group and are thus guaranteed not
>to be a random sampling of women in computer science? 

Well, as far as i know, that group is indeed pretty representative
of women in CS. I know women from all over the technical and
political spectrum who are members. I suggest you check into
this before you flame again about it.

>Is it at
>all possible that some individuals in such a group might be out
>there looking for "sexism" or "male domination" in almost
>_anything_?

Undoubtedly some of them are. But lots of them aren't. They're
more representative than you think, as you'd discover if you
took some time to investigate.

>Mike, I'll say it again. It is a *BIG* mistake trying to
>interject a notion that computer languages can be "sexist" or in
>any way give credibility to a misperception that C or any
>language is part of a "Macho" culture. It will only politicize
>something which ought not be a political issue.

First of all, you are the one throwing around political statements,
not me. It is a _fact_ that many women perceive C as associated
with a "macho" culture. I did not make up the fact. Their perceptions
may be wrong, but their perceptions are what they are.  The informal
survey I mentioned did show that half the respondents did _not_
perceive C this way. If the group was as biased as you claim, and
was pushing some sort of "agenda", they could've suppressed the data 
that didn't support their argument.

Maybe the word "macho" is throwing you off stride. I am using the
word to describe a style of programming - the tricky, hacker, show-offy
style we have all seen examples of. I am certainly not implying anything
about the nontechnical personalities of C folks.

>I'm not against depicting women as users of Ada in an interest of
>broadening the audience. But let's not turn computer languages
>into another battleground of "sexism" by even entertaining the
>thought that it could or should be.

Well, I, for one, am not doing that. Lots of unbiased studies have
shown that women are more likely to see computers as a tool to get
a job done, and men are more likely to want to put a computer through
its paces. (Like all statistics, these are aggregates, and of course
there are lots if exceptions.) This difference turns up in all sorts 
of places, including male vs. female approaches to the Internet. 
Flamers are (almost) all male, for example. Many women have told me
they have more important things to do than hurl insults on the net.

We can carry this on by e-mail, if you wish. I certainly have no intention
of "politicizing" Ada in the way you imply. I've been accused of many
things; "PC" is not usually one of them.

Back to work.

Mike Feldman

Re: Marketing Ada

[Robert Dewar]

This sure is a peculiar thread (the one about macho programming!) :-)

Re: Marketing Ada

[Robert Dewar]

If the "C hacker culture is a turn off to women", maybe we should hire
more women as programmers :-) :-)

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <3d1jqp$n8q@gnat.cs.nyu.edu>, Robert Dewar <dewar@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>If the "C hacker culture is a turn off to women", maybe we should hire
>more women as programmers :-) :-)

Sounds like a good idea to me, Robert. (no smileys...)

Mike Feldman

Re: Marketing Ada

[Mitch Gart]

There's a strain of programming that takes attitudes like:

- I'd rather write it myself than get it from a subroutine library
  or a package written by someone else

- I'd rather invent the algorithms myself than read about them
  in a book or an article

- I'd rather write in a low level language, to get ultimate
  control and efficiency

.. that sort of thing.  This could be called "macho programming" 
even though it really has nothing to do with the sex of the person
who is doing it.

A few years ago, around the time of "real men don't eat quiche"
somebody said "real programmers use macro assembler on MVS".

	Mitch Gart

RE: MARKETING ADA

[Michael Hagerty]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1403 bytes --]

On 12-19-94, Mitch Gart posted to All:

MG> There's a strain of programming that takes attitudes like:
MG> - I'd rather write it myself than get it from a subroutine library
  >   or a package written by someone else
MG> - I'd rather invent the algorithms myself than read about them
  >   in a book or an article
MG> - I'd rather write in a low level language, to get ultimate
  >   control and efficiency

And then there are those of us who would answer a most emphatic "NOT!" to
each of the above...  Although I think the third one can be accomplished
as well in Ada as the assembler or C I have seen most programmers write.

MG> .. that sort of thing.  This could be called "macho programming"
  > even though it really has nothing to do with the sex of the person
  > who is doing it.

I rather think of it as "coneheaded programming" consuming mass quantities
of time...

MG> A few years ago, around the time of "real men don't eat quiche"
  > somebody said "real programmers use macro assembler on MVS".

Ahhhh, Ed Post's excellent article on why "Real Men Don't Use Pascal"...
and I remember working on a rather large and complicated payroll program
written in FORTRAN-66...

Regards, Mikey

<michael.hagerty@nitelog.com> PGP Key available on popular servers
PGP Fingerprint = 56 12 CF A9 0E 53 A4 C4  49 F2 AF E7 F1 D3 47 5F
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