Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[David Weller]

In article <199412031821.LAA27900@hops.entertain.com>,
Colin James III  <cjames@HOPS.ENTERTAIN.COM> wrote:
>off by the gross behavior of him and his cronies.  Put another way, the mode
>and content of Robert's posts reflect one who doesn't have too much to do,
>and hence waste everyone's time.

Yeah.  Writing the first compiler for Ada94/5 was a real waste of
time.

Sheesh, stop being such an asshole, Colin.

-- 
Proud (and vocal) member of Team Ada! (and Team OS/2)        ||This is not your
   	      Ada -- Very Cool.  Doesn't Suck.               ||  father's Ada 
For all sorts of interesting Ada tidbits, run the command:   ||________________
"finger dweller@starbase.neosoft.com | more" (or e-mail with "finger" as subj.)
	|"Quitting C++ isn't so difficult, provided you show as much |
	|	persistence stopping as you did starting." dweller   |

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[Dave Retherford]

In article <3brgav$gu5@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>,
David Weller <dweller@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
> In article <199412031821.LAA27900@hops.entertain.com>,
> Colin James III  <cjames@HOPS.ENTERTAIN.COM> wrote:
> >off by the gross behavior of him and his cronies.  Put another way, the mode
> >and content of Robert's posts reflect one who doesn't have too much to do,
> >and hence waste everyone's time.
> 
> Yeah.  Writing the first compiler for Ada94/5 was a real waste of
> time.
> 
> Sheesh, stop being such an asshole, Colin.
> 
> -- 
Now, now Dave, remember Colin suffers from an acute case of cranial edema 
with a complicating factor of cranial rectumitus.

-- 
 Dave Retherford                      | 
  Daver@Neosoft.com  or:              | 
  Dave_Retherford@hso.link.com [work] | 

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[Michael Davies]

Full support to Robert! and Ada 9X!

Yours severely,

Part of the silent majority.
--
Michael Davies. Software Engineer. All opinions mine. Team Ada. Go Go Go!
email: (h) Michael.Davies@iagu.itd.adelaide.edu.au

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[David M. Tannen]

After reading many posts in c.l.a. during this last year, I will take
Robert's posts just about anyday as compared to the vast majority of
stuff that is posted.  I am grateful for Robert's posts.

But I guess that would make me one of his cronies (by someones
definition).

So Colin - please go back to sleep (or wherever you hang out) and keep
your personal comments to yourself.
-- 
David Tannen (tannend@source.asset.com)                 TeamAda Member
Christian Acronyms: B.I.B.L.E.=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
                    G.R.A.C.E.=God's Redemption At Christ's Expense
                    F.A.I.T.H.=Forsaking all, I trust Him

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[-mlc-+Schilling J.]

I like the fact that Robert Dewar's posts are succinct and never quote 
preceding posts.  Even if this is forced upon him by his news software,
it's a blessed relief from the screenfulls of cascades you see all over
the rest of Usenet.

-- 
Jonathan Schilling
Novell, UNIX Systems Group
jls@summit.novell.com

Terseness

[John Volan]

While I highly respect Robert Dewar, I disagree with Jonathan Schilling.

(Nice and terse, right?  Gets right to the point, doesn't it?  But ...
what in the world am I referring to?  Hit a space now if you want to
find out. ;-)
\f

jls@summit.novell.com (-mlc-+Schilling J.) writes:

>I like the fact that Robert Dewar's posts are succinct and never quote 
>preceding posts.  Even if this is forced upon him by his news software,
>it's a blessed relief from the screenfulls of cascades you see all over
>the rest of Usenet.

I have to disagree with you here, Jonathan.  When someone responds to
a previous post, sometimes the response is hard to understand unless
it happens to immediately follow the original, or unless it quotes at
least part of the original.  My news software seems to sort posts by
time of arrival, not time of sending, and I frequently see a response
*after* the original post.  Depending on the transmission lags
involved, the original may occasionally appear *days* after the
response!  Even if the posts do arrive in sending order, there may be
a gap of several days between the original and the response, and I may
have forgotten what the original post said.  Or, if I let a few days go
by without reading the news, the original may already be long gone and
I may never see it at all!

I feel that a reasonable amount of quoting is a polite courtesy that
aids the reader's understanding.  Of course, like anything, this can
get out of hand if you take it to an extreme, but the opposite extreme
of not quoting at all is, IMHO, just as bad.

In Robert Dewar's case ... well, he's a very busy man, and the work
he's doing is of such importance to the future of Ada, that I think we
can all forgive him this slight indiscretion. :-)  Frankly, I'm
grateful that he can take the time to post to c.l.a at all!

John Volan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  Me : Person := (Name                => "John Volan",
--                  Company             => "Raytheon Missile Systems Division",
--                  E_Mail_Address      => "jgv@swl.msd.ray.com",
--                  Affiliation         => "Enthusiastic member of Team Ada!",
--                  Humorous_Disclaimer => "These opinions are undefined " &
--                                         "by my employer and therefore " &
--                                         "any use of them would be "     &
--                                         "totally erroneous.");
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Terseness

[Robert Dewar]

John (Volan), I trust you use a news reader that follows threads, if not
it is VERY hard to follow and respond to news coherently. In particular,
the example message you just gave indeed had no context, because you
started a brand new thread. It is true that if you follow messages blindly
in sequence, then you might even get to like these horrible quotes.

So, John, just for interest, do you follow threads, or do you read messages
sequentially (I bet the latter!)

Re: Terseness

[John Volan]

dewar@cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar) writes:

>John (Volan), I trust you use a news reader that follows threads, if not
>it is VERY hard to follow and respond to news coherently. 

[snip]

>So, John, just for interest, do you follow threads, or do you read messages
>sequentially (I bet the latter!)

Sorry, you lost that bet! ;-) Yes, my newsreader does follow threads
[*um, see footnote below].  This does help by at least placing a post
in the context of its thread, but sometimes this isn't enough context
to avoid confusion.  *Within* a given thread, I find that posts do not
necessarily appear in the order they were sent (presumably because of
geographical differences in transmission lag).  I suppose a smart
newsreader could sort posts by sending-order, as well as by thread,
but I don't think this would solve every problem.  What if you see a
response on Tuesday, read it (thus "eliminating" it from the thread),
and then finally get the original post on Thursday?

Even if posts do arrive in sending-order, what if there's a
significant time gap?  Let's say Mr. Alpha posts something on Tuesday.
Ms. Beta reads it on Wednesday, thinks up an interesting response on
Thursday, mulls on it overnight, and posts it on Friday.  By the time
poor Mr. Gamma sees Ms. Beta's response on Monday, his memory of Mr.
Alpha's original post has gotten a little foggy.  In the meanwhile,
the thread has spawned a lively discussion between Messrs. Delta,
Epsilon, and Zeta, who each fired off several posts on Wednesday,
Thursday, and Friday.  By the time poor Mr. Gamma wades through these
to get to Ms. Beta's post, the context of Mr. Alpha's original post
may have completely dissipated, unless Ms. Beta has been kind enough
to quote from it.  When Ms. Eta finally logs into the newsgroup a week
or so later (after her newsreader has already flushed Mr. Alpha's
post) she may see several simultaneous, intertwined discussions all
under the same subject (Mr. Theta and Ms. Iota having thrown in some
tangential issues), and there may be no clue as to what anybody is
talking about, other than what can be gleaned from quotes.

>It is true that if you follow messages blindly
>in sequence, then you might even get to like these horrible quotes.
                                                    ^^^^^^^^

Well, I'm certainly not an advocate of "horrible" quotes that go to
tremendous extremes.  I believe it's incumbent on a responder to be
judicious and selective in how much of the original to quote, and how
best to break up a long quote to respond to it point for point.
Anyone who just quotes a long post in its entirety without doing a
little editing is simply being lazy, in my book.  And if the quoted
post *itself* contains a huge quote ... well, that kind of cascading
is an abuse, pure and simple.  But just because quoting can be abused
doesn't necessarily mean that *all* quoting is absolutely bad, IMHO.
Like anything, it has to be approached thoughtfully.

>In particular,
>the example message you just gave indeed had no context, because you
>started a brand new thread. 

Er, if you recall, the original subject line used to be "Robert
Dewar's horrible posts".  I refuse to promote the rather bizarre
agenda of the person who started *that* thread, even to the extent of
having my posts carry such a subject line (or even by referring to it
with a "[was: ... ]" annotation).  I wanted my comments to be viewed
in a much milder and more constructive light, so I thought it wise to
start a whole new thread.

				-- John Volan

[*] P.S. In the above discussion, I'm assuming that the term "thread"
is synonymous with "subject", but maybe I'm still naive about Internet
lingo.  Are there newsreaders smart enough to "follow the references,"
thereby distinguishing separate "threads" even within the same
"subject"?  (In which case, why don't we make that bet best two out of
three?  ;-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  Me : Person := (Name                => "John Volan",
--                  Company             => "Raytheon Missile Systems Division",
--                  E_Mail_Address      => "jgv@swl.msd.ray.com",
--                  Affiliation         => "Enthusiastic member of Team Ada!",
--                  Humorous_Disclaimer => "These opinions are undefined " &
--                                         "by my employer and therefore " &
--                                         "any use of them would be "     &
--                                         "totally erroneous.");
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Terseness

[-mlc-+Schilling J.]

John Volan raises some valid points about the unorderedness of news readers,
but I still think it is possible to write a succinct follow-up without quoting.

;-)

-- 
Jonathan Schilling
Novell, UNIX Systems Group
jls@summit.novell.com

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[Robert Dewar]

Actually my news reader will quote stuff fine, but I hate wading through
quotes! Sometimes I don't give enough context, so that can be a problem
the other way, especially for people who are only occasional readers,
but the quote to information ratio in many CLA messages asymptotically
approaches infinity :-)

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[Dik T. Winter]

In article <BEVAN.94Dec12143317@lemur.cs.man.ac.uk> bevan@cs.man.ac.uk (Stephen J Bevan) writes:
 > In that case it would help if your software generated or at least
 > respected the References line in the header.

What is wrong with the References line in the header of the article you quote?
Look:
References: <199412031821.LAA27900@hops.entertain.com> <3brgav$gu5@Starbase.NeoS
oft.COM> <3brkum$ljh@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> <3c7ieuINNgnt@marble.summit.novell.co
m>
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland, +31205924098
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl

An error on my part ... (was Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts)

[Stephen J Bevan]

In article <D0pw8F.MAv@cwi.nl> dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:
   In article <BEVAN.94Dec12143317@lemur.cs.man.ac.uk> bevan@cs.man.ac.uk (Stephen J Bevan) writes:
    > In that case it would help if your software generated or at least
    > respected the References line in the header.

   What is wrong with the References line in the header of the article you quote?

I cancelled the post (but apparently not quick enough) once I realised
the the post I was responding to did have a reference line.  Of course
I should have checked before posting.  Instead I incorrectly assumed
it was like some of Robert's past messages which, whilst having plenty
of content, were sometimes difficult to put in context because of the
lack of a References line.

Re: An error on my part ... (was Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts)

[Dik T. Winter]

In article <BEVAN.94Dec15133037@lemur.cs.man.ac.uk> bevan@cs.man.ac.uk (Stephen J Bevan) writes:
 > I cancelled the post (but apparently not quick enough) once I realised
 > the the post I was responding to did have a reference line.

Alright.  Never assume that cancelling your article will put it in oblivion.
I once found that an article in a sources newsgroup that I cancelled only
two seconds after posting (there was a packaging error) was not only
sent around already, but archived at some places as well.
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland, +31205924098
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[Dave Retherford]

In article <199412031821.LAA27900@hops.entertain.com>,
Colin James III  <cjames@HOPS.ENTERTAIN.COM> wrote:
> 
> This sort of public vomit hurts the Ada cause;  it reveals Robert Dewar as
                      ^
                      Wow! What a witty statement.

> undignified and his true colors as a ravenous Internet demon preying upon
> casual posters.  Dewar accounts for about 30% of all posts to comp.lang.ada,
                                            ^
                                            Wrong.  Absolutely wrong!  
Its only 29.8365442345, at least according to my Pentium.

> and the content of his posts are *always* to show he is superior as the
> respondor to the respondee.  Aside from my embarrassment that Dewar's
> (misplaced) last name gives Scots a bad name (I certainly do not claim him
> as a clansman, aye, much less an irreligious academic), I am reminded of the
> saying "jealousy is the homage that inferiority pays to merit".  What
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
                                      At this point I can just imagine 
how _you_ must feel.

> follows, to counter Robert's apparent envy, is to instill a sense of justice
> in Robert that those down to whom he posts may just possibly be smarter, make
> more money, and be happier than he is.  If Robert could possibly curb his
> arrogant keyboard on comp.lang.ada for one week, even he would be amazed at
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  Let he who is without sin, er.. keyboard, ummm.. whatever, cast the 
first stone, er flame, network packect... whatever.
   
> the fresh new ideas expressed from the silent readers here otherwise put
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Apparently out yourself, eh?

> off by the gross behavior of him and his cronies.  Put another way, the mode
                                           ^^^^^^^
                                           Ed, a crony?  I'm aghast! 
> and content of Robert's posts reflect one who doesn't have too much to do,
> and hence waste everyone's time.
                  ^  
                  Right back at ya, babe!

This time I just had to say _something_.  As one of the "silent readers" 
of this group (well maybe an occassional post or two) I am more offended 
by your insensitive tirade than by any supposed air of superiority on the 
part of Robert.  At least for his part, he is actively, and with 
occassional humor, trying to promote and extend the reach of the Ada 
language; something that I notice a conspicuous lack of on your part.

If I am not mistaked, aren't there a couple of sayings regarding social 
conduct or manners:

      1)  If you can't say something nice about someone, then don't say 
anything.

      2)  Children should be seen and not heard.

Dave.
-- 
 Dave Retherford                      | 
  Daver@Neosoft.com  or:              | 
  Dave_Retherford@hso.link.com [work] | 

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[COBARRUVIAS_JOHN]

In <199412031821.LAA27900@hops.entertain.com> cjames@HOPS.ENTERTAIN.COM writes:

> 
> 
> This sort of public vomit hurts the Ada cause;  it reveals Robert Dewar as
> undignified and his true colors as a ravenous Internet demon preying upon
> casual posters.  Dewar accounts for about 30% of all posts to comp.lang.ada,

OK you PHDs lets try this as a Ada programming contest:
 since comp.lang.ada represents less than .001% of the Ada 
community, what does 30% of comp.lang.ada represent in the Ada Community?


John "Just had to comment" Cobarruvias

Re: Robert Dewar's horrible posts

[Mark Bayern]

 

 
In article <199412031821.LAA27900@hops.entertain.com>, Colin James III (cjames@HOPS.ENTERTAIN.COM) writes:
>>Date:         Thu, 1 Dec 1994 16:24:38 -0500
>>From:         Robert Dewar <dewar@CS.NYU.EDU>
>>Organization: Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
>>Subject:      Re: Why don't large companies use Ada?
>>

   ... Dewar's words snipped ...

>This sort of public vomit hurts the Ada cause;  it reveals Robert Dewar as
>undignified and his true colors as a ravenous Internet demon preying upon
>casual posters.  Dewar accounts for about 30% of all posts to comp.lang.ada,
                                           ^^^

He might be close to 30% of the _useful_ stuff on c.l.a, but clearly
you are in error with your statement that he accounts for 30% of
_all_ posts. 

Your message is rejected with a Data_Error exception.

Re: Colin James the Third's horrible posts

[John Volan]

Colin James III <cjames@HOPS.ENTERTAIN.COM> writes:

>This sort of public vomit hurts the Ada cause;  

Funny, the only person I see engaging in the technicolor yawn appears to
be one Colin James the Third.

>it reveals Robert Dewar as
>undignified and his true colors as a ravenous Internet demon preying upon
>casual posters.  

Funny, the only ravenous Internet demon preying upon casual posters that I
see appears to be one Colin James (Third Edition).

>and the content of his posts are *always* to show he is superior as the
>respondor to the respondee.  

Funny, the only person I see using his posts to aggrandize himself at
the expense of others appears to be one Colin James, Mark 3.

>Aside from my embarrassment that Dewar's
>(misplaced) last name gives Scots a bad name

Funny, the only person I see giving Scots a bad name appears to be one
Colin James Aye-Aye-Aye.

>I am reminded of the
>saying "jealousy is the homage that inferiority pays to merit".  

Funny, the only person I see demonstrating his own inferiority by
using jealousy to pay homage to merit appears to be one Colin James
in the Third Dimension.

>Put another way, the mode
>and content of Robert's posts reflect one who doesn't have too much to do,
>and hence waste everyone's time.

Funny, the only posts I see whose mode and content reflect one who
doesn't have much to do except waste everyone's time (and bandwidth)
appear to be those of one Colin James, Part Three -- The Final (?) Chapter.

Mr. Colin James the Third, if you have any sons, please please please
do them the inestimable kindness of refraining from naming any of them
after yourself.  In my experience, a man named after his father
frequently suffers an inferiority complex from the burden of being
"Junior".  This only worsens with each passing generation that this
unfortunate practice is repeated.  Often, the only way such a pathetic
child can prop up his congenitally low self-esteem is by attaching a
ponderous Roman numeral to his name.  But ironically (unless the boy
happens to be a member of a royal family) this practice merely
succeeds in casting his patent inferiority in sharp relief.

Sincerely,

-- John Volan (to my knowledge the first, and, I guarantee it, the last :-)

(Apologies to all for wasting bandwidth with this post, but Robert Dewar
deserves better treatment than this.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  Me : Person := (Name                => "John Volan",
--                  Company             => "Raytheon Missile Systems Division",
--                  E_Mail_Address      => "jgv@swl.msd.ray.com",
--                  Affiliation         => "Enthusiastic member of Team Ada!",
--                  Humorous_Disclaimer => "These opinions are undefined " &
--                                         "by my employer and therefore " &
--                                         "any use of them would be "     &
--                                         "totally erroneous.");
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Colin James the Third's horrible posts

[Michael Feldman]

In article <D0D192.MoI@swlvx2.msd.ray.com>,
John Volan <jgv@swl.msd.ray.com> wrote:

>(Apologies to all for wasting bandwidth with this post, but Robert Dewar
>deserves better treatment than this.)

I agree, and propose that we cut the ad hominem crap and get back to work.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman -  chair, SIGAda Education Working Group
Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University -  Washington, DC 20052 USA
202-994-5919 (voice) - 202-994-0227 (fax) - mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
         Ada on the World-Wide Web: http://lglwww.epfl.ch/Ada/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Illegitimi non carborundum." (Don't let the bastards grind you down.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Terseness

[tmoran]

Today's 20 Team Ada e-mail messages totalled 1313 lines, 468 of
which were neither quote nor header.