Is Ada the Future?

Is Ada the Future?

[Simtel20 Transfer]

I read in Information Week that Bill Gates says that
he has $500M invested in Windows NT product family.
I used to think that the $30M or so that the DoD
out into Softech's original Ada effort was a lot
of money and should have been enough.  But now after
reflection and considering the $500M for an operating system
maybe a new language system, namely Ada 9X, needs
> $500M to begin to make it commercially viable.
Do we have the $500M+ to put into a new commercial
programming language system?  I doubt if the DoD does.
Ok, I'll speculate that Ada 9X needs about $750M
invested over the next several years to make it
a commercial success.
Agree?  Disagree?

sam harbaugh HARBAUGH@ROO.FIT.EDU
p.s. just the team Ada uniforms will cost
a considerable amount of money  :-)

Re: Is Ada the Future?

[Kevin V. Sobilo]

Simtel20 Transfer (HARBAUGH@ROO.FIT.EDU) wrote:
: Ok, I'll speculate that Ada 9X needs about $750M
: invested over the next several years to make it
: a commercial success.
: Agree?  Disagree?


Well, my take on whether Ada can become successful in 
commercial industry is this.... Only if educational institutions
start supporting it more. The stresses have to be on
software engineering. I believe that many schools programs,
including the way the program here at SUNY Fredonia were designed
were for people going on to grad school.... Wel, surprise surprise...
Not many student from SUNY Fredonia go on to grad school right away...
Many are working for DoD contractors such as CSC or IIT... So, 
even though the curriculum hasnt been altered, here at Fredonia,
stress is placed on software engineering (using Ada pretty heavily)...

As a result, over this past summer and continuing now I am working
at Amherst Systems as a Student Software Engineer using Ada, Motif, etc...


So, my belief is that if colleges and universities stress software 
engineering practices and use Ada even moderately, that Ada will 
work its way into commercial industry. Students dont just forget
everything they did in college when they go to work... If they
have learned the benefits of an organized approach to software
design and development, then when they use Ada they will be able to
appreciate the features which lend itself to this....






--

/					   				  \ 
|					   \\                              |
|	Kevin V. Sobilo			    \\                             |
|	sobi0268@mary.cs.fredonia.edu        \\  //   "Only Amiga Makes    |
|					      \\//     It Possible"        |
|					       \/                          |
| 	       "When the only tool you have is a hammer, 		   |
|	        everything begins to look like a nail."			   |
|                          - Lotfi Zadeh -				   |
|									   |
|		    "BEWARE OF BURPS WITH CHASERS" 			   |
\==========================================================================/

Re: Is Ada the Future?

[David Weller]

In article <INFO-ADA%94100122101508@VM1.NODAK.EDU>,
Simtel20 Transfer  <HARBAUGH@ROO.FIT.EDU> wrote:
>I read in Information Week that Bill Gates says that
>he has $500M invested in Windows NT product family.

Hmm, that sounds like a common number with the "biggies" nowadays.
F'rinstance, the hot rumor now is that IBM is sinking $500M in
promotion of their new release of OS/2 (which is a pretty 
impressive OS, I'm running the beta right now).

>I used to think that the $30M or so that the DoD
>out into Softech's original Ada effort was a lot
>of money and should have been enough.  But now after
>reflection and considering the $500M for an operating system
>maybe a new language system, namely Ada 9X, needs
>> $500M to begin to make it commercially viable.
>Do we have the $500M+ to put into a new commercial
>programming language system?  I doubt if the DoD does.
>Ok, I'll speculate that Ada 9X needs about $750M
>invested over the next several years to make it
>a commercial success.
>Agree?  Disagree?
>
Disagree.  Advertising Ada with a huge multimillion-dollar (US$ :-)
budget probably won't help.  That money should be used instead (IMHO)
to bribe some companies to create Ada-based products and tools that
compete on an even level with other languages (as a minimum) -- but
that would still perpetuate the old "The government will support your
Ada efforts" anyway, which I'm against.  *sigh*  Life is full of
paradoxes :-)

>p.s. just the team Ada uniforms will cost
>a considerable amount of money  :-)

Like all other sects, we're having problems collecting large
donations ourselves.  As a result, the planned distribution of
uniforms for Team Ada members is cancelled.  Instead, we managed to
get a good deal on those "Happy Face" buttons that were so popular in
the 70's (I guess somebody overstocked), so that will be our lapel
pin :-)  <-- That's what one looks like.

-- 
Proud (and vocal) member of Team Ada! (and Team OS/2)        ||This is not your
   	      Ada -- Very Cool.  Doesn't Suck.               ||  father's Ada 
For all sorts of interesting Ada tidbits, run the command:   ||________________
"finger dweller@starbase.neosoft.com | more" (or e-mail with "finger" as subj.)
   ObNitPick: Spelling Ada as ADA is like spelling C++ as CPLUSPLUS. :-) 

Re: Is Ada the Future?

[Tucker Taft]

In article <INFO-ADA%94100122101508@vm1.nodak.edu>,
Simtel20 Transfer  <HARBAUGH@ROO.FIT.EDU> wrote:
> ...
>Ok, I'll speculate that Ada 9X needs about $750M
>invested over the next several years to make it
>a commercial success.
>Agree?  Disagree?

Disagree.  The key to the success of Ada 9X, IMHO, is
to leverage the work being done in other languages, and not
try to reinvent the wheel completely.  There are many
vendors pouring money into various kinds of multilingual
integrated development environments.  Much of that investment
can be generalized to include Ada 9X, if there are the
Ada-specific components (aka "personality modules") available.

One of the biggest problems "last time" with Ada was that
most vendors took the route of making Ada an empire (duchy? ;-)
unto itself, rather than integrating with the multilingual
tools already on the platform.  This emphasized the impression
that Ada talked only to itself, and that you had to go all Ada
and only Ada to get advantages out of Ada.

"This time," I hope that with efforts like GNAT and others,
we will be able to integrate Ada seemlessly with the multilingual
tools, and allow incremental adoption and use of Ada in conjunction
with other languages.  Clearly one of the advantages of C++
is that it can be adopted incrementally.  Ada can and should
be the same way.  Although the Ada "purists" had an understandable
point of view, I believe it almost killed the language.  Ada is
a tool, and a very effective one, but if the entry barrier is
too high, you can never get started and familiar enough with it to make
a big commitment to it.

What this means is that huge investments are not what is required.
Rather what is required is careful and seemless integration with
existing tool suites.

The Windows NT do-it-all-from-scratch-but-maintain-compatibility-with-
a-groddy-and-crufty-wart-on-a-kludge mentality is not what is needed.
The right mentality is focusing on adding incremental value to existing
tool suites, luring people to try Ada in an environment where the
entry barrier is low, all other things are equal, and the inherent
reliability, safety, flexibility, and readability of the language can
be appreciated, without the unnecessary burdens of quirky, idiosynchratic,
slow, expensive, and incompatible Ada-specific tool sets.

You asked ;-)
	
>sam harbaugh HARBAUGH@ROO.FIT.EDU
>p.s. just the team Ada uniforms will cost
>a considerable amount of money  :-)

Now that's a good point!

-Tucker Taft   stt@inmet.com
Intermetrics, Inc.
Cambridge, MA  02138

Re: Is Ada the Future?

[Gregory Aharonian]

>  The key to the success of Ada 9X, IMHO, is
>to leverage the work being done in other languages, and not
>try to reinvent the wheel completely.

Brilliant point Tucker.  For example, I know of a product line in the C
world where this strategy can be applied.  This company sells a developing
environment for the 68XXX world that includes:

	- Real Time Executive
	- Windows Cross-Debugger for PC or Sun
	- Optimizing C Compiler
	- Windows Integrated Development Environment
	- TCP/IP, ASYNCH, SDLC, LAPD Communications Support
	- Support for BDM and In-Circuit Emulators
	- Host Kernel Simulation Tools
	- Royalty Free Run-Time Use
	- Attractive price at $8,500 for the Environment

Seems to me , Tucker, that such a embedded programming environment would be
an ideal candidate for being extended from C to also handle Ada, "leveraging
the work being done in other language".  As it is, Ada could use some good
commercial embedded development environments as good as this company's product
sounds.

However, as sound as your idea is, what inducements are there for any company
to make such an investment, especially if it is very uncertain if there will
be an return on their investment?  Everyone in the Mandated world keeps on
forgetting that people in the private sector view participation in any Ada
DualUse movement as an investment expecting a return, and worse, a return
greater than the return if they exist in their current technology lines.

To determine if investing in Ada will provide a greater return than investing
in their existing technology lines is a very tricky calculation, made more
complicated but the lack of any data to extrapolate from (yet one more downside
of DISA's negligence in measuring Ada use anywhere).

I assume that the above referenced company has at least occasionally thought
about extending their product lines with Ada, and each time rejected the
idea as fiscally irresponsible.  If this goes on at many other tool firms,
Ada Dual Use will go nowhere, since it is obvious that the DoD has no interest
in investing in a serious Ada commercialization campaign (i.e. to give the
reputable professionals at DISA as much money as they give the non-Ada lovers
at ARPA - tens and hundreds of millions of dollars).

So Tucker, next time you propose a strategy, GO ASK THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS
OF INTERMETRICS WHY THEY DON'T WANT TO INCLUDE ADA IN THIS $8500 C SYSTEM YOU
GUYS ADVERTISE IN THE INSIDE FRONT COVER OF EMBEDDED SYSTEMS PROGRAMMING.

If Intermetrics won't invest in Ada commercial products, why the hell should
anyone else, especially all those who have never received Ada monies from
the DoD?

Greg Aharonian

Re: Is Ada the Future?

[Tucker Taft]

In article <SRCTRAN.94Oct2120511@world.std.com>,
Gregory Aharonian <srctran@world.std.com> wrote:

> ...
>If Intermetrics won't invest in Ada commercial products, 

Intermetrics is investing in Ada commercial products, and has
invested in the past.  In the past our market has been System/370
Ada compilers, with an investment well into the millions of dollars.
For Ada 9X, we see a broader market, and probably a bigger
investment ... (enough said?).

>Greg Aharonian

-Tucker Taft   stt@inmet.com
Intermetrics, Inc.