Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

[James Crigler]

I got my copy of the OOPSLA '93 advance program, and whadaya
know? -- there's an Ada track in which 9X is prominently
mentioned.  Okay, Alsys, Alsys-nee-Telesoft, Meridian, Tartan,
Verdix, Rational, and yes, even GNAT:  Answer this question
unambiguously:

	ARE YOU PLANNING TO EXHIBIT?

Jim Crigler
------------------------------------------
Hee, hee!  I just had to get it in before Greg A.!

Re: Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

[cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!wupost!c]

srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian) writes:

>If you call up all of the people on the program, and ask them where there
>funding comes from, you will find DARPA funding C++/Smalltalk/Lisp
>stuff ten to one over Ada in OOPSLA sponsorship.  Thanks to such funding,
>Ada-whatever is dead in the OOPSLA world.

>The foundations and battles for OOP languages were fought years ago,
>during the 1908's.  C++ and Smalltalk, thanks in parts to such large
>Ada contractors like IBM, captured all of the high ground, leaving the
>swamps for Ada.  Too many legacy decisions are being made now, and have
>been made, for Ada to succeed outside the Mandated world short of a
>masterful and strategic marketing manuever by the Mandated World.

The Ada community and the OOPSLA community do not overlap much.  I don't
think it has much to do with DARPA funding.  Moreover, I do not think
the battles for OOP languages are anywhere near over.  The programming
world is constantly being revolutionized, and there is no reason to
think this will stop any time soon.

I am program chair for OOPSLA'93.  There are many groups that share some of
the interests of OOPSLA but do not attend OOPSLA.  I think it would be
good to interact more with them.  We targeted three such groups this
year, one of which is the Ada community.  Having OOPSLA in Washington
made Ada an attractive option, but the Ada community is a natural
target anyway.  A lot of the work on object-oriented design and analysis
methods came out of the Ada community.  They are interested in software
reuse like we are.  The largest Ada systems are much larger than the
largest C++ systems.  I'm not convinced that they have attacked reuse
properly, but I think that there is a lot we will have to talk about.

Ada is not an object-oriented language, but it looks like Ada 9X will be.
OOPSLA is about object-oriented programming, so it is natural that most
of the OOPSLA community has not been using Ada.  But lots of people try
to use Ada in an object-oriented style, so I have been a little surprised
that there is as little interaction between the two communities as there
has been.  This probably due to the fact that the Ada community already
has its own conferences, so they are not as willing to go to a conference
where only some of the material is relevant to them.  Nevertheless, I
think that there is a lot to be gained from cross-fertilization.

-Ralph Johnson

Re: Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

[cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!longwoo]

Gregory Aharonian replied (in part) to my post:
: 
: Jim, in the spirit of competitiveness that you are showing hear, let
: ... I have not seen the OOPSLA material you have,
: but when I do I will show you how to read between the lines.  If you
: call up all of the people on the program, and ask them where there
: funding comes from, you will find DARPA funding C++/Smalltalk/Lisp
: stuff ten to one over Ada in OOPSLA sponsorship.  Thanks to such funding,
: Ada-whatever is dead in the OOPSLA world.
[ Partial history of OOP deleted.]

I haven't had time to check the brochure more carefully, but below
you will find the paragraphs from the page titled ``TOPICAL
TRACKS.''  Since I'm vain and it's long here is my evaluation first:
While the Ada is a very small part of the OOPS community, the
community seems to me to be reaching out actively to us.  We have
largely been igoring OOP (<- flame bait).

>From the OOPSLA brochure (page 2, takes > 0.25 pages, with bright red heading)
:
Ada [title in red]

    With the coming of Ada 9X, object-orientation is becoming an
    increasingly hot topic in the Ada comunity.  This year OOPSLA
    no only addresses this interest in general, but also includes a
    number of sepcifically Ada-oriented items.  For example, there
    are two Ada 9X tutorials as well as a technical paper on Ada 9X
    by Tucker Taft.
    
    Also, look for the paper on ``Impacts of Object-Oriented
    Technologies'' by Mike Stark, whick is based largely on
    experiences with Ada and object-oriented methods at Goddard
    Space Flight Center over the last seven years.  There is a
    Demonstration, ``Ada Paintball,'' that should be interesting.
    And, don't miss the panel on ``Developing Software for
    Large-Scale Reuse,'' which includes panelists from the Ada
    community.  In fact, this panel is also to be held at the
    Washington Ada Symposium in June, and is intended to encourage
    greater interaction between Ada and the OOP communities in the
    important area, reuse.
    
    Even with Ada 83, the Ada community has always been pioneering
    in the areas of object-oriented analysis and design.  OOPSLA
    '93 has a plethora of analysis and design tutorials and an
    entier session of technical papers on object-oriented
    analysis.  So, whether you are a long time practitioner of
    object-oriented methods with Ada, or if you are just learning
    about object-oriented programming and Ada 9X, OOPSLA this year
    is more relevant than ever.
    
    Ed Seidewitz
    NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
    OOPSLA '93 Ada Special Interest Topic Chair

[Bad puntuation from the brochure; misspellings mine.]

Jim Crigler
I believe in the unborn woman's right to choose.   -- Author unknown

Re: Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

[Philip Santas]

In article <C8z9K3.ML8@cs.uiuc.edu> johnson@cs.uiuc.edu (Ralph Johnson) writes:
>
>Ada is not an object-oriented language, but it looks like Ada 9X will be.
>OOPSLA is about object-oriented programming, so it is natural that most
>of the OOPSLA community has not been using Ada.  

This is why most of the OOPSLA community has the problems which users
of ADA (or ADA-like languages, or languages with similar features) do not have.
This is not supposed to mean that ADA is a super-language (it is not), but 
rather that the features it supports are the ones that make this 
kind of languages to be powerful enough, and quite successful.
Anything to learn from this?

>But lots of people try
>to use Ada in an object-oriented style, so I have been a little surprised
>that there is as little interaction between the two communities as there
>has been.  

I'm wondering what you mean by "use Ada in an object-oriented style".
It turns out that the new OOL's have incorporated many features found
in languages like ADA.

>This probably due to the fact that the Ada community already
>has its own conferences, so they are not as willing to go to a conference
>where only some of the material is relevant to them.  

It is because they have nothing to gain from "discussions" on topics like:

- what is inheritance?
- what is object?
- what is a RW object?
- what is RW in OOP?
- how can we have homogeneous lists which are not homogeneous?
- how can we do static type inference to a language (like Self) where static
    type-inference is impossible?
- how can we prove that Self needs static type inference, and still make
    people believe it?
- here is a "proof" that a system, which takes some hours to type-check
    'hallo world' and needs several GBs of memory, is useful!

and the rest, all in the same style.

>Nevertheless, I
>think that there is a lot to be gained from cross-fertilization.

Are you saying that this year's OOPSLA is not going to be so boring
as the ones of the last 4-5 years (as far as I can reason from the proceedings,
and discussions with other experts)?

Philip Santas

  "In an evolving universe those who stand still are really moving backwards"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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email: santas@inf.ethz.ch                                Philip Santas
Mail: Dept. Informatik                     Institute of Scientific Computation
      ETH Zurich                          Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
      CH-8092 Zurich                                  Zurich, Switzerland
      Switzerland
Phone: +41-1-2547478

Re: Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

[James Crigler]

Gregory Aharonian replied (in part) to my original post:
: : 
: : Jim, in the spirit of competitiveness that you are showing hear, let
: : ... I have not seen the OOPSLA material you have,
: : but when I do I will show you how to read between the lines.  If you
: : call up all of the people on the program, and ask them where there
: : funding comes from, you will find DARPA funding C++/Smalltalk/Lisp
: : stuff ten to one over Ada in OOPSLA sponsorship.  Thanks to such funding,
: : Ada-whatever is dead in the OOPSLA world.
: [ Partial history of OOP deleted.]

Well, I posted the paragraphs from the brochure, and have heard
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since.  Are we all mulling the meaning of
it?  Are we all so positively stupified that we can't type?
Are we giving the vendors time to get 47 signatures for
permission to reveal they are exhibiting?  Is resonding to
someone (me) who declares himself a pro-lifer in his sig
beneath our dignity?  (<-- More flame bait.)  Was there a sale
on question marks at Woolworth's?

Come on vendors, respond! Are you exhibiting at OOPSLA?

Jim Crigler

Re: Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

[David McAllister]

In article <1993Jun24.170125.12325@cs.ucf.edu> crigler@longwood (James Crigler)
 writes:
>Gregory Aharonian replied (in part) to my original post:
>: : 
>: : Jim, in the spirit of competitiveness that you are showing hear, let
>: : ... I have not seen the OOPSLA material you have,
>: : but when I do I will show you how to read between the lines.  If you
>: : call up all of the people on the program, and ask them where there
>: : funding comes from, you will find DARPA funding C++/Smalltalk/Lisp
>: : stuff ten to one over Ada in OOPSLA sponsorship.  Thanks to such funding,
>: : Ada-whatever is dead in the OOPSLA world.
>: [ Partial history of OOP deleted.]
>
>Well, I posted the paragraphs from the brochure, and have heard
>ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since.  Are we all mulling the meaning of
>it?  Are we all so positively stupified that we can't type?
>Are we giving the vendors time to get 47 signatures for
>permission to reveal they are exhibiting?  Is resonding to
>someone (me) who declares himself a pro-lifer in his sig
>beneath our dignity?  (<-- More flame bait.)  Was there a sale
>on question marks at Woolworth's?
>
>Come on vendors, respond! Are you exhibiting at OOPSLA?
>
>Jim Crigler

Well, Silicon Graphics will be at the show... and if we can work
the logistics of being in Seattle at Tri-Ada one week and D.C. the
next week, we'll have Ada in the booth, and on the juried demos
as well.

While we're probably not what you refer to as an Ada vendor, I 
thought I'd add my bit as well.

Feel free to stop by and see us, no matter what your language choice.

Dave  McAllister
Ada Product Manager
Silicon Graphics, Inc.

--
*SHINDO - the ART of the MIND*

*Fortune for the day*

Re: Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

[Jim Crigler]

Dave McAllister wrote in reply to my lament over the lack of vendor
response to my question about who will be exhibiting at OOPSLA:

: Well, Silicon Graphics will be at the show... and if we can work
: the logistics of being in Seattle at Tri-Ada one week and D.C. the
: next week, we'll have Ada in the booth, and on the juried demos
: as well.

Thanks for telling us Dave.  At least someone reads my posts.  Now,
any other vendors (even primarily Ada-oriented !!!!) care to reply?

Are you exhibiting at OOPSLA?

Jim Crigler

Re: Gauntlet thrown: OOPSLA program

[Jim Heliotis]

There is a tutorial on Monday that covers Ada 9X.  BTW, last year at
the Educators' Symposium panel, Doug Grant predicted that X=4.

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