Re: Proving Correctness (was Java Portability)

[Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>]

nicolas <n.brunot@cadwin.com> wrote:
: "Georg Bauhaus" <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> a ?crit dans le message
: news: 9kb3ub$hdo$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de...
:> You write about debutants, could you provide some reasoning why for
:> these people there should be a more full grown environment than AdaGIDE?
: 
: I don't write only about debutants. Exactly the reasoning apply to
: experimented programmers.
: What I meant is that, in those languages, even debutants can find very
: easily simple tools,
: that experimented programmers are (or at least should be) very happy to
: find.
: 
:> Is the Aonix product so far off for this group of people???
: 
: Aonix is smart enough to provide something looking like Visual C++, Apex is
: not bad too.

So we have settled this?
(Like: every young man in the 90ies has had to have a Zippo lighter.
every debutant programmer has to have a Visual C++ like IDE. :-)

: Remember what Marin said about softwares
: You should put the CD, see a standard install procedure pop up, and find
: menus "file", "edit", "tools" in their expected palce, with expected
: functions and behavior.

Yes, I've read his posting. True, if you are or have to be impatient
because of deadlines say, you want a DWIM IDE with much reusable
software and a slot in
it that reads: "Put your needed libraries in here, I'll care
for the rest". Or better, they are already there.
This is important for people who cannot afford reading
documentation accompanying software components, and install after.
They won't buy otherwise.  So the Microsoft delusion
technique has caught on. 

I agree that to convince some people it must look like you are
doing profitable work right after the install wizard has 
finished it's work. But I doubt this will lead to effective
use of an IDE. Wich is not relevant for some marketing, true.

I think we could arrive at a much better explaination looking
at how mainstream programming and programming as a social
process relate. Counting PC installations, I think it is safe
to say that Ada is not popular, as are quite some other nice
languages.
<wildly fantasizing, or modelling you can call that>
Programmers or managers
in charge of deciding which tools to use can be viewed as
members of a pack. Leaders of each pack communicate via
known respectable channels (private or public) to agree
on the best solution wihch will help getting the job done. 
Very simple known and proven social effect:
The solution which the most people say is good, is good.
The leaders decide.
(For one of many references, see aany group study from
the mid of the last century. See also the book by T.C. Schelling,
wich has been mentioned a few times here. ) </>

CONSEQUENCE:
============
see below

: When standard and expected things are found, only after that, check the docs
: to go further,

Yes, the Microsoft delusion technique is successful, and
one might try to do the same to make Ada more successful,
if necessary. See below.
But to me, the evidence is still not in the 99% range.
Could you provide some evidence?

: If not just throw the software away. There is no excuse.

I've seen some unsuccessful undertakings using this approach.
So by current methodological standards, this is not a law.
Still, see below.

: He is right, and almost every software users do the same.

Almost every... May I again ask for evidence?

: May be the problem of Ada language is that such an evidence is not an
: evidence for too many Ada users.

Does "evidence" mean the same in French as it does in German, namely
"self-evidence"? If so,  might I ask again for evidence?

: The important point is that it is claimed by 99% of people who could think
: in using Ada

I must say, this number strikes me again and again.
You must have some data that I don't have. :-)
Remember, not every programmer in the world, and in business,
was brought up on Borland IDEs (was there a standard Pascal
library ? :-)

: If your product doesn't satisfy them, change the product or they'll forget
: about your poduct, and they will be very wise to do so.

Well, certainly Rational Rose os not a click and go product,
very unsatisfying if you are used to "install, be productive
from the start". Still some do not throw it away. I think
you might have to be a bit more specific about "products".

: They know what they want, if you do not provide it, and if others provide
: it, no hesitation ...

Yes, but in some cases they come back, repentant.
Any parents reading this? :-)

: Every [!] industry has understood such elementary evidence [!],
software industry
: started to understand it[!], those who don't understand will disappear[!]...

Have you considered working as a stockbroker?
You could advise potential monopolists' shareholders :-)
(Sorry.)


: Just have a look at a Java compiler. It is self-explanatory ...

That's what I'm doing a few days every week, and from
both Emacs and an alledgedly _very_ popular Java IDE by IBM which
does not fit your criteria for the entries in the menues,
for example. Plus the class browser, source views, etc which
remind me of Smalltalk, not Windows.

It prooves a few things:
1 The libraries are not really for a ready to go approach,
  even excluding the sort
  of libraries I have named, which are not considered "standard"
  (like linear algebra packages etc). Example: for java.sql.*
  to work, remotely, you need 3rd party drivers, outside the IDE.
  Much the same with GNADE, from what I've read.
  After all, the Son docs invite you to either use or extend the
  library classes. Or to implemement the interfaces...
  So it is disguise to some extent, but apparently
  effective as far as appreciation in the windows world
  is concerned.
2 The new interfaces in Java 2 seem to have been influenced
  by the GoF patterns. Implmentations also available from adapower,
  due to wonderful work by Matthew Heany and friends, if I may
  mention this.
3 Are there graph classes and related algorithms somwhere
  in the java.* hierarchy? Have I missed them? Aren't they
  pretty standard? Present in the Booch components.
  
So it boils down to the question: where is the student's
(or private use) price CD that integrates them for the
windows user using a 1-click installation wizard?
Where is Visual Ada?

If Nicolas is right, there is a chance to make money.
Just package the available software into an IDE, including
available libraries.  Need not be a powerful IDE since the CD
is used for convincing people who are used to Windows GUI
standards IDEs.

(Besides, where do so many people get their nice full blown
MS Visual Xyz licenses from? Are they all students?)

: Once again compare a Java compiler and any Ada compiler.
: while we hear on c.l.a. endless discussions about syntax, and that 18 year
: after Ada83 and 6 years after Ada95 ?
: Don't you think there could be some lesson to learn ?

Look at the Pizza, Aspect J, ..., and GJ discussions. 
 
: Everybody knows what popular languages compilers provide
: Everybody knows what Ada compilers provide
: Everybody can compare how widely they are used.

I seriously doubt that any of these 3 sentences is based on facts,
and is well defined. 

Let me boldly try to translate:
"I, like some of my collegues, have grown accustomed to some
 popular language programming environment. I like what is there
 after I do the usual install. This is more compicated and tedious
 in Ada environments. There seem to be more installations of that
 pop lang environment on PCs and Macs."

" So the obvious conclusion is: This correlation is a cause-effect
  relation!"

I beg to differ. See below.
 
: I cannot understand why so much time is lost in useless discussion while the
: gap is growing.

What gap? Starting when? Which significance?
This sounds like priest's words wanting to frighten someone.
Misleading rhetoric. One-factor explainations.
(VB 2001/ VB 2001) > (Ada 2001/Ada 2000) implies dangerous gap?
Fact, facts, please. They could be really helpful.

--  Georg Bauhaus
---
GTK bound--how to defeat GNOME