Re: [OT] Software Engineering at 14 (was: Re: Beginner's Language?)

["FM" <danfm@dartmouth.edu>]

"Peter Schuller" <peter.schuller@infidyne.com> wrote:

> >And you
> >knew exactly what people did in other jobs that you didn't
> >want?
>
> That argument can be taken as far as you like. One can never know exactly
> what it's like to be in every single possible profession. I've always been
> leaning towards science, mathematics and computers. And no, I wasn't bullied
> into it by my parents or anything. That's the way my brain works.

Human brains are fairly similar to one another. I once thought
when I was really young that I was leaning towards science, only
to discover later that I didn't know what science really meant.
I think the reason why our inclinations tend not to change has
more to do with positive feedback than them being right.


> The first computer I ever tried was a Mac running MacOS. I later tried DOS.
> Guess what? I preferred DOS. And this was when I was a super-newbie.

I had the opposite reaction, so it must be that I'm not fit to be
a programmer. <g>


> >> The biggest problem was the stupid educational system which acts a huge bump
> >> on the road (this is Sweden by the way; pretty much comparable to US
> >> education except slightly "faster").
> >
> >I'm not sure if I comprehend this. The US doesn't have
> >anything close to single education system. Every state has
> >its own standards, every district has its own standards,
> >and every private school has its own standards. And in each
> >school, kids get to choose their own courses, within
> >certain limits.

> It's those "limits" I'm talking about. In this regard, the US is actually
> worse than Sweden - if I had gone to a university in Sweden I could have
> concentrated on what I'm interested in (computers, math, physics,
> philosophy, and some other stufF). I'm currently attending a US unversity
> where 50% of the curriculum is CORE - and it's more or less the same all
> over the place (believe me, I've checked this stuff for at least 100
> universities around the country).

Brown University?

In any case, what colleges decide to require for their degrees is
a completely distinct issue. That's a point where there are enough
plausible choices that it's hard to characterize them as a single
system of any kind.


> > a lot
> >of things that kids should learn, whether they happen to
> >recognize the necessity or not.
>
> ... and once again, the "it's important to learn" argument, which is
> completely without merit in this context. I have forgotten the vast majority
> of what I "learned" in school. I remember the math, physics etc well because
> I *want* to know it. As for history and similar subjects - I've forgotten
> most of it. And I don't need it. I don't need to know exactly which year
> some king died because I'm not interested.

Do you believe you learn only *facts* (or whatever it is that you can
remember or forget) in history classes? That might be all they teach,
but that's not all you were supposed to learn, IMHO.


> >You can always go from broad to narrow, the other way around
> >is much harder.
>
> Yes, but one should be able to make decisions - even if it requires the
> concent of the parents. But it should be possible to deviate from the
> standard path that everyone's supposed to take. If nothing else, that would
> increase diversity in the society as a whole.

Of course everyone needs to deviate from the standard path at some
point. That doesn't mean that specialization is the only way or that
it's a good idea for a 14 year old.


> >And you overestimate the
> >degree of choice kids usually have in such matters.
>
> No I don't; I state that I think they should have more choice.
>
> I fully realize that not everyone should be presented with all these choices
> early in life. But the possibility should exist if the child takes the
> initiative. <insert super natural being here> knows that I would have done so.

What possibility? Learning by yourself is a possibility for most
circumstances, though not always (i.e. I didn't have access to
any CS literature and/or a programmable computer when I was very
young. I'm not too sure if it was a bad thing).


> >There's almost a point where some form of broad education is
> >necessary for one to be considered a citizen.
>
> Yes, but once again, teaching a bunch of stuff the subject doesn't remember
> is useless.

But that some people don't remember what they are taught doesn't
mean that teaching in general is useless. Whether you will need
or remember something is not clear to anyone when the decision to
teach it is made.


Dan.