* Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group @ 2009-07-07 10:19 rodakay 2009-07-07 10:27 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: rodakay @ 2009-07-07 10:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Hello all, Would anyone be interested in forming a group to co-operate with Ada development of the Mindstoms NXT Robot kit ? If so, perhaps we might meet in #ada on irc.freenode.net to discuss a suitable forum ? regards, Rod. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-07 10:19 Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group rodakay @ 2009-07-07 10:27 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 2009-07-07 13:51 ` Matteo Bordin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Jacob Sparre Andersen @ 2009-07-07 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Rod wrote: > Would anyone be interested in forming a group to co-operate with > Ada development of the Mindstoms NXT Robot kit ? How can a fan of LEGO, Ada and robotics say no to that question? ;-) Yes. Play well, Jacob -- A scene from Copenhagen reconstructed in LEGO: http://lego.jacob-sparre.dk/Milj%F8er/Stengade/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-07 10:27 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen @ 2009-07-07 13:51 ` Matteo Bordin 2009-07-07 21:20 ` Martyn Pike 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Matteo Bordin @ 2009-07-07 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 7, 12:27 pm, Jacob Sparre Andersen <spa...@nbi.dk> wrote: > Rod wrote: > > Would anyone be interested in forming a group to co-operate with > > Ada development of the Mindstoms NXT Robot kit ? > > How can a fan of LEGO, Ada and robotics say no to that question? ;-) > > Yes. > > Play well, > > Jacob > -- > A scene from Copenhagen reconstructed in LEGO: > http://lego.jacob-sparre.dk/Milj%F8er/Stengade/ Why don't you create a subgroup of LEGO Fan on Linkedin? This would give you a virtual place to discuss and would give more visibility to our beloved language ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-07 13:51 ` Matteo Bordin @ 2009-07-07 21:20 ` Martyn Pike 2009-07-08 11:34 ` rodakay 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Martyn Pike @ 2009-07-07 21:20 UTC (permalink / raw) I run the Ada Programming Language group on Linkedin.com Would you like me to create a "Ada for Mindstorms" subgroup ? Martyn Matteo Bordin wrote: > On Jul 7, 12:27 pm, Jacob Sparre Andersen <spa...@nbi.dk> wrote: >> Rod wrote: >>> Would anyone be interested in forming a group to co-operate with >>> Ada development of the Mindstoms NXT Robot kit ? >> How can a fan of LEGO, Ada and robotics say no to that question? ;-) >> >> Yes. >> >> Play well, >> >> Jacob >> -- >> A scene from Copenhagen reconstructed in LEGO: >> http://lego.jacob-sparre.dk/Milj%F8er/Stengade/ > > > Why don't you create a subgroup of LEGO Fan on Linkedin? > This would give you a virtual place to discuss and would give more > visibility to our beloved language ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-07 21:20 ` Martyn Pike @ 2009-07-08 11:34 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 12:13 ` AdaMagica 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: rodakay @ 2009-07-08 11:34 UTC (permalink / raw) That's wonderful, thank you all for replying. Linkedin seems a fine idea, thank you, Martyn. I've also set up #adalego on irc.freenode.net for informal discussion, if anyone is interested. regards. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 11:34 ` rodakay @ 2009-07-08 12:13 ` AdaMagica 2009-07-08 12:30 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 12:51 ` rodakay 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: AdaMagica @ 2009-07-08 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Why not create a Google group? What's the advantage of having two new forums (LinkedIn, #adalego)? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 12:13 ` AdaMagica @ 2009-07-08 12:30 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 12:59 ` rodakay 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake 2009-07-08 12:51 ` rodakay 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-08 12:30 UTC (permalink / raw) AdaMagica wrote: > Why not create a Google group? What's the advantage of having two new > forums (LinkedIn, #adalego)? Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one for this thread? Is the traffic already too high here? -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 12:30 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-08 12:59 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 13:05 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: rodakay @ 2009-07-08 12:59 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 8, 10:30 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one > for this thread? Is the traffic already too high here? Hello Ludovic, Heh, the traffic on cla is *never* too high :). The worry is that the traffic on the formal lego forum may become too high, and so obscure the purer Ada language questions on cla. At least, I can live in hope that it will be so ... cheers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 12:59 ` rodakay @ 2009-07-08 13:05 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 13:48 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 13:48 ` Matteo Bordin 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-08 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 8, 2:59 pm, roda...@tpg.com.au wrote: > On Jul 8, 10:30 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one > > for this thread? Is the traffic already too high here? > > Heh, the traffic on cla is *never* too high :). > > The worry is that the traffic on the formal lego forum may become > too high, and so obscure the purer Ada language questions on cla. > > At least, I can live in hope that it will be so ... I appreciate your forward thinking but "premature optimization is the root of all evil". So, I think comp.lang.ada is appropriate until the Lego-related traffic becomes to high. At that point a new forum will become necessary and justified. Just my two cents :) -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 13:05 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-08 13:48 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 13:48 ` Matteo Bordin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: rodakay @ 2009-07-08 13:48 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 8, 11:05 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > The worry is that the traffic on the formal lego forum may become > > too high, and so obscure the purer Ada language questions on cla. > > > At least, I can live in hope that it will be so ... > > I appreciate your forward thinking but "premature optimization is the > root of all evil". Heh, and I thought C was the root of all evil ... :). > So, I think comp.lang.ada is appropriate until the > Lego-related traffic becomes to high. At that point a new forum will > become necessary and justified. I'm convinced. Unless Linkedin has more to offer, cla seems fine for a beginning. #adalego has been set up on irc.freenode.net also, for any interested. > Just my two cents :) I suspect that your opinions are worth a little more than 2c ... ;) cheers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 13:05 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 13:48 ` rodakay @ 2009-07-08 13:48 ` Matteo Bordin 2009-07-08 23:14 ` Ludovic Brenta 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Matteo Bordin @ 2009-07-08 13:48 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 8, 3:05 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > On Jul 8, 2:59 pm, roda...@tpg.com.au wrote: > > > On Jul 8, 10:30 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > > Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one > > > for this thread? Is the traffic already too high here? > > > Heh, the traffic on cla is *never* too high :). > > > The worry is that the traffic on the formal lego forum may become > > too high, and so obscure the purer Ada language questions on cla. > > > At least, I can live in hope that it will be so ... > > I appreciate your forward thinking but "premature optimization is the > root of all evil". So, I think comp.lang.ada is appropriate until the > Lego-related traffic becomes to high. At that point a new forum will > become necessary and justified. Just my two cents :) I have to say I still believe a *subgroup* of the LEGO Fan group on Linkedin would be the best option. You would have the advantage of having a dedicated group which is also visible to other LEGO users around the globe, thus providing more visibility to the Ada language, to the GNAT-on-MINDSTORMS project and to your discussions. We would not have these advantages if the discussion takes place on c.l.a or IRC. I would be happy to start the discussion to create the new subgroup on linkedin. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 13:48 ` Matteo Bordin @ 2009-07-08 23:14 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-09 8:20 ` Matteo Bordin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-08 23:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Matteo Bordin wrote on comp.lang.ada: > On Jul 8, 3:05 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 8, 2:59 pm, roda...@tpg.com.au wrote: > > > > On Jul 8, 10:30 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > > > Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one > > > > for this thread? Is the traffic already too high here? > > > > Heh, the traffic on cla is *never* too high :). > > > > The worry is that the traffic on the formal lego forum may become > > > too high, and so obscure the purer Ada language questions on cla. > > > > At least, I can live in hope that it will be so ... > > > I appreciate your forward thinking but "premature optimization is the > > root of all evil". So, I think comp.lang.ada is appropriate until the > > Lego-related traffic becomes to high. At that point a new forum will > > become necessary and justified. Just my two cents :) > > I have to say I still believe a *subgroup* of the LEGO Fan group on > Linkedin would be the best option. You would have the advantage of > having a dedicated group which is also visible to other LEGO users > around the globe, thus providing more visibility to the Ada language, > to the GNAT-on-MINDSTORMS project and to your discussions. We would > not have these advantages if the discussion takes place on c.l.a or > IRC. > > I would be happy to start the discussion to create the new subgroup on > linkedin. The problems with LinkedIn are its proprietary and centralized nature and the absence of a search engine. And it does not allow you to choose your client, as Usenet does. Finally, it is a "professional" network, not necessarily accessible or attractive to teenagers. Making Ada more visible to the more general Lego Mindstorms is, of course, a worthy goal. I therefore suggest the existing Usenet newsgroup alt.comp.lego-mindstorms as a better solution; in addition it makes cross-posting to comp.lang.ada possible and even desirable IMHO. -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 23:14 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-09 8:20 ` Matteo Bordin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Matteo Bordin @ 2009-07-09 8:20 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 9, 1:14 am, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > Matteo Bordin wrote on comp.lang.ada: > > > > > On Jul 8, 3:05 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 8, 2:59 pm, roda...@tpg.com.au wrote: > > > > > On Jul 8, 10:30 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > > > > Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one > > > > > for this thread? Is the traffic already too high here? > > > > > Heh, the traffic on cla is *never* too high :). > > > > > The worry is that the traffic on the formal lego forum may become > > > > too high, and so obscure the purer Ada language questions on cla. > > > > > At least, I can live in hope that it will be so ... > > > > I appreciate your forward thinking but "premature optimization is the > > > root of all evil". So, I think comp.lang.ada is appropriate until the > > > Lego-related traffic becomes to high. At that point a new forum will > > > become necessary and justified. Just my two cents :) > > > I have to say I still believe a *subgroup* of the LEGO Fan group on > > Linkedin would be the best option. You would have the advantage of > > having a dedicated group which is also visible to other LEGO users > > around the globe, thus providing more visibility to the Ada language, > > to the GNAT-on-MINDSTORMS project and to your discussions. We would > > not have these advantages if the discussion takes place on c.l.a or > > IRC. > > > I would be happy to start the discussion to create the new subgroup on > > linkedin. > > The problems with LinkedIn are its proprietary and centralized nature > and the absence of a search engine. And it does not allow you to > choose your client, as Usenet does. Finally, it is a "professional" > network, not necessarily accessible or attractive to teenagers. > > Making Ada more visible to the more general Lego Mindstorms is, of > course, a worthy goal. I therefore suggest the existing Usenet > newsgroup alt.comp.lego-mindstorms as a better solution; in addition > it makes cross-posting to comp.lang.ada possible and even desirable > IMHO. > > -- > Ludovic Brenta. I did not know alt.comp.lego-mindstorms: thanks Ludovic! I announced the availability of the toolset there too. I agree with you that this group would probably be the best option, even if it does not seem to have a lot of traffic. We can always signal interesting discussion on linkedin if needed. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 12:59 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 13:05 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake 2009-07-09 11:25 ` rodakay 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2009-07-09 9:17 UTC (permalink / raw) rodakay@tpg.com.au writes: > On Jul 8, 10:30�pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: >> >> Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one >> for this thread? �Is the traffic already too high here? > > Hello Ludovic, > > Heh, the traffic on cla is *never* too high :). > > The worry is that the traffic on the formal lego forum may become > too high, and so obscure the purer Ada language questions on cla. > > At least, I can live in hope that it will be so ... If that happens, that's the time to create a separate forum. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake @ 2009-07-09 11:25 ` rodakay 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: rodakay @ 2009-07-09 11:25 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 9, 7:17 pm, Stephen Leake <stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org> wrote: > roda...@tpg.com.au writes: > > On Jul 8, 10:30 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > >> Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one > >> for this thread? Is the traffic already too high here? > > > Hello Ludovic, > > > Heh, the traffic on cla is *never* too high :). > > > The worry is that the traffic on the formal lego forum may become > > too high, and so obscure the purer Ada language questions on cla. > > > At least, I can live in hope that it will be so ... > > If that happens, that's the time to create a separate forum. > -- > -- Stephe Thanks, all. The consensus seems to be for c.l.a as the formal forum. I've also set up the irc channel (currently 5 members). cheers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 12:30 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 12:59 ` rodakay @ 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2009-07-09 9:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes: > AdaMagica wrote: >> Why not create a Google group? What's the advantage of having two new >> forums (LinkedIn, #adalego)? > > Why not use comp.lang.ada and meaningful subject lines like the one > for this thread? Is the traffic already too high here? I like the idea of advertising Ada by using a subgroup on the Lego forum. Otherwise, I agree with using comp.lang.ada. It would be interesting to see what traffic results. However, while I used to do robotics for NASA, I'm not anticipating doing Lego robotics, so this doesn't affect me directly. Although I suppose I might be able to contribute advice; that won't happen on the Lego forum, but it will here. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 12:13 ` AdaMagica 2009-07-08 12:30 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-08 12:51 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 13:01 ` Ludovic Brenta 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: rodakay @ 2009-07-08 12:51 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 8, 10:13 pm, AdaMagica <christoph.gr...@eurocopter.com> wrote: > Why not create a Google group? What's the advantage of having two new > forums (LinkedIn, #adalego)? I guess each kind of forum has slightly different 'dynamics'. An irc channel can provide a tutorial like forum (for quick/minor/ informal questions). A Linkedin (or other email like) forum can give more lecture-like style of question/answer (ie to discuss new ideas or aspects). So i suppose my vote would be for one of each. Regards. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 12:51 ` rodakay @ 2009-07-08 13:01 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 13:22 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 20:17 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-08 13:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Rod wrote on comp.lang.ada > I guess each kind of forum has slightly different 'dynamics'. An > irc channel can provide a tutorial like forum (for quick/minor/ > informal questions). A Linkedin (or other email like) forum can give > more lecture-like style of question/answer (ie to discuss new ideas or > aspects). I don't like IRC; there are too many problems with it. Since there are no archives and no subject lines, one cannot later search for an answer. So I am not inclined to give advice there, knowing whatever I say will be lost. Also, newbies are bound to ask the same question over and over. The correct answer, of course, is "search comp.lang.ada" :) The second problem is that, because it is so informal, people tend not to think their questions through; it takes several iterations before we can even understand the question. The great quality of Ada is that it forces the programmer to say what they mean, i.e. think twice. This benefit disappears on IRC. In contrast, as you can see, people post meaningful, well-constructed questions here daily. My conclusion: informal questions belong in a searchable newsgroup and tutorials should go on a Wiki (perhaps a new chapter about Lego Mindstorms in the Ada Programming wikibook?) -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 13:01 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-07-08 13:22 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 20:17 ` Pascal Obry 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: rodakay @ 2009-07-08 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 8, 11:01 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > I don't like IRC; there are too many problems with it. > > Since there are no archives and no subject lines, one cannot later > search for an answer. So I am not inclined to give advice there, > knowing whatever I say will be lost. Also, newbies are bound to ask > the same question over and over. The correct answer, of course, is > "search comp.lang.ada" :) > > The second problem is that, because it is so informal, people tend not > to think their questions through; it takes several iterations before > we can even understand the question. The great quality of Ada is that > it forces the programmer to say what they mean, i.e. think twice. > This benefit disappears on IRC. In contrast, as you can see, people > post meaningful, well-constructed questions here daily. I agree. These points show the 'pro's of a formal forum. Yet some people also can benefit from the 'hands-on' and rapid irc atmosphere. > My conclusion: informal questions belong in a searchable newsgroup and > tutorials should go on a Wiki (perhaps a new chapter about Lego > Mindstorms in the Ada Programming wikibook?) Some sort of FAQ and Tutorials webpage (Wiki or Wikibook) would be marvellous. regards. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 13:01 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 13:22 ` rodakay @ 2009-07-08 20:17 ` Pascal Obry 2009-07-09 11:23 ` rodakay 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2009-07-08 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Brenta I agree with Ludovic. IRC channels is far too informal to me. Also, as a reader of c.l.a I'll be more than happy to follow on going work on the Lego Mindstorms even if I don't participate. Moving to another channel will just hide a bit more this Ada side. My 2 cents. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.net - http://v2p.fr.eu.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group 2009-07-08 20:17 ` Pascal Obry @ 2009-07-09 11:23 ` rodakay 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: rodakay @ 2009-07-09 11:23 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jul 9, 6:17 am, Pascal Obry <pas...@obry.net> wrote: > > I agree with Ludovic. IRC channels is far too informal to me. I think both a formal c.l.a forum and an irc channel would be ideal. Some questions seem more suited to an informal forum. With one of each, we might gain the benefits of the lecture/tutorial division, used in many universities. > Also, as a reader of c.l.a I'll be more than happy to follow on going > work on the Lego Mindstorms even if I don't participate. Moving to > another channel will just hide a bit more this Ada side. I'd be very happy with c.l.a as the formal forum. regards. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-07-09 11:25 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-07-07 10:19 Lego Mindstoms for Ada: user group rodakay 2009-07-07 10:27 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 2009-07-07 13:51 ` Matteo Bordin 2009-07-07 21:20 ` Martyn Pike 2009-07-08 11:34 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 12:13 ` AdaMagica 2009-07-08 12:30 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 12:59 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 13:05 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 13:48 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 13:48 ` Matteo Bordin 2009-07-08 23:14 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-09 8:20 ` Matteo Bordin 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake 2009-07-09 11:25 ` rodakay 2009-07-09 9:17 ` Stephen Leake 2009-07-08 12:51 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 13:01 ` Ludovic Brenta 2009-07-08 13:22 ` rodakay 2009-07-08 20:17 ` Pascal Obry 2009-07-09 11:23 ` rodakay
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