Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Robert Dewar]

In article <mailman.980514018.8909.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>,
  comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org wrote:

> Actually mine was: it was nil! For me that is just what it
> should have been. (I suppose I took French, English and
> Italian instead.)

Ah, so you were just guessing about the meaning of cf :-) And
here I was thinking you were quoting Ovid (though I must say
I cannot remember the use of this Latin word in Ovid, it does
not easily fit into Iambic pentameter -- well actually that's
not fair, it could fit, but I still don't remember him using
the term, and I had to learn thousands of lines of Ovid -- it
was the usual punishment at my school -- so while we were in
exile being punished, we got to learn all about his laments
of frigid winters in the North :-)

It's a good thing I changed the subject line of this thread!



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Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Ted Dennison]

In article <94s5iq$rdk$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
> the term, and I had to learn thousands of lines of Ovid -- it
> was the usual punishment at my school -- so while we were in
> exile being punished, we got to learn all about his laments
> of frigid winters in the North :-)

A nasty punishment indeed. Now if you spent all that time reading
Catullus, that would be interesting. :-)


--
T.E.D.

http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html


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Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Robert Dewar]

In article <94rkj1$d4r$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  tom_swiftjr@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Perhaps that's merely a reflection of the state of
> advancement of mathematics
> when you were a lad?

No, just a reflection of  relative importance. Note however
that I had one mathematics class a day from the age of 4 to
13 (when I left England, and this would have continued for
years). I fear the situation is not so fine here in the
good old USA, where many high school students do not have
to take four years of math :-(



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Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Florian Weimer]

tom_swiftjr@my-deja.com writes:

> > In England, from the age of 7-13 I spent 10 class hours a week
> > learning Latin, and only 5 learning mathematics, when I
> > was 10, I added 5 hours a week of Greek :-) That's the way
> > things were done then.

> Perhaps that's merely a reflection of the state of advancement of
> mathematics when you were a lad?

There's hardly any relationship between the advancement of mathematics
and the math taught at school.  Many important things have been
discovered during the last few decades, but I doubt that (e.g.) the
classification of finite simple groups is relevant for school teaching
(even the trivial classification of finite simple abelian groups is
way beyound what it is taught at schools, at least here in Germany).

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Lao Xiao Hai]

Brian Rogoff wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Robert Dewar wrote:
>
> > Decimate refers to the practice in the Roman army of punishing
> > a failing unit of an army by randomly executing one out of ten
> > members.
>
> Now that's interesting. I wonder if the US military will reintroduce the
> practice to keep software quality high now that Ada is being replaced by
> C++ ;-)

Well, since we are getting silly,  does anyone know how Roman soldiers
counted off?

                       I,  II,  III,  IV, V, VI,  ...

I'm not going to sign this.   :-)

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Lao Xiao Hai]

Robert Dewar wrote:

>
> ... not fair, it could fit, but I still don't remember him using
> the term, and I had to learn thousands of lines of Ovid -- it
> was the usual punishment at my school -- so while we were in
> exile being punished, we got to learn all about his laments
> of frigid winters in the North :-)

I preferred his more entertaining work, Ars Amatoris.  Of course
we did not get to read that in high school Latin class.  That was
not introduced until college.  Hmmmmm.  Just thinking about that
makes me want to run out and buy a Latin dictionary and locate
a copy of Ovid's salacious work.  :-)

Richard

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Nick Williams]

Robert Dewar wrote:


> Ah, so you were just guessing about the meaning of cf :-) And
> here I was thinking you were quoting Ovid (though I must say
> I cannot remember the use of this Latin word in Ovid, it does
> not easily fit into Iambic pentameter -- well actually that's
> not fair, it could fit, but I still don't remember him using
> the term, and I had to learn thousands of lines of Ovid -- it
> was the usual punishment at my school -- so while we were in
> exile being punished, we got to learn all about his laments
> of frigid winters in the North :-)

Iambic pentameter, in Ovid? Say it isn't so! Surely most of Ovid is 
elegiac couplets, wherein both the hexameters and the pentameters are 
_dactylic_? And the bits of verse that aren't elegiac couplets are 
dactylic hexameter pure and simple (like the Metamorphoses).

Assuming that the word in question is 'conferre'; it appears in both 
Metamorphoses and Amores in its infinitive form, although exceedingly 
infrequently; the 'contul-' perfect root is rather more common, it seems.

Obviously, it is significantly easier to scan conferre in hexameter, 
because the two long syllables can be the second syllable of a spondee, 
and the start of the next foot: cf. 'et conferre gradum, et veniendi 
discere causas' (Aeneid, Book IV, Aeneas' fallen countrymen greet him
in the underworld).

Cheers,

Nick Williams
PxCS.

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Brian Rogoff]

On 26 Jan 2001, Florian Weimer wrote:
> tom_swiftjr@my-deja.com writes:
> 
> > > In England, from the age of 7-13 I spent 10 class hours a week
> > > learning Latin, and only 5 learning mathematics, when I
> > > was 10, I added 5 hours a week of Greek :-) That's the way
> > > things were done then.
> 
> > Perhaps that's merely a reflection of the state of advancement of
> > mathematics when you were a lad?
> 
> There's hardly any relationship between the advancement of mathematics
> and the math taught at school.

Sad but true. 

>  Many important things have been
> discovered during the last few decades, but I doubt that (e.g.) the
> classification of finite simple groups is relevant for school teaching

Here I think we disagree. I think that there is quite a bit of modern
mathematics that could be brought to the high school student and the 
undergraduate (even the ones who aren't majoring in mathematics) that 
is highly relevant. Non-standard analysis, differential forms (can be 
introduced with multivariable calculus), category theory (a high school 
level approach in the book by Lawvere and Schanuel, linear programming, 
really the list is pretty long.

Personally, I'd much rather spend time studying math than studying Latin; 
the latter seems a waste of time, like being forced to read Shakespeare. 
De gustibus non est disputandum. ;-)

-- Brian

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Pat Rogers]

"Brian Rogoff" <bpr@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.21.0101262056580.20133-100000@shell5.ba.best.com...

<snip>

> Personally, I'd much rather spend time studying math than studying Latin;
> the latter seems a waste of time, like being forced to read Shakespeare.
> De gustibus non est disputandum. ;-)

IMHO reading Shakespeare is one of the most valuable things a human being
can do.  Why?  Because we are emotional as well as intellectual creatures.
Sure, maths may be more applicable in our technical activities, but the
number of technical people I know who have either a) never been able to have
a serious relationship, or b) couldn't make the ones they have had last for
any length of time, suggest that having some knowledge of how emotions work
would have saved them serious hardship.  While that information may be
available in psychology classes (or Machiavelli's "The Prince":), I'd rather
read Shakespeare's prose.  If there is anything about the human condition
worth saying, he has said it, and said it better than anyone else.

---
Patrick Rogers                       Consulting and Training in:
http://www.classwide.com        Real-Time/OO Languages
progers@classwide.com          Hard Deadline Schedulability Analysis
(281)648-3165                          Software Fault Tolerance

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Marin David Condic]

This whole thread is so far off topic, its rather amazing. You can't even
find the word "computer" in it anywhere. What surprises me is how much
interest there seems to be in Latin within this group.

A little fun and games is understandable, but maybe this has drifted on too
long for C.L.A.? Where are the Usenet Police when you need them? :-)

MDC

Nick Williams wrote:

> Robert Dewar wrote:
>

--
======================================================================
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Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m
Visit my web site at:  http://www.mcondic.com/

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======================================================================

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Georg Bauhaus]

Marin David Condic (mcondic.auntie.spam@acm.org) wrote:
:  What surprises me is how much
: interest there seems to be in Latin within this group.

Don't you learn Latin with reference manual style books?
:-)

Georg Bauhaus

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Florian Weimer]

Brian Rogoff <bpr@shell5.ba.best.com> writes:

> > Many important things have been
> > discovered during the last few decades, but I doubt that (e.g.) the
> > classification of finite simple groups is relevant for school teaching
> 
> Here I think we disagree.

Not necessarily.  I don't think it has to be that way, I was just
describing the status quo here.  In fact I hope that some day, modern
mathematics and, more important, the joy of mathematics hit the
schools (calculus is taught in most parts in Germany as if we were in
the 18th or even 17th century, it's pretty confusing and has an aura
as if it was a Dark Art).

> I think that there is quite a bit of modern mathematics that could
> be brought to the high school student and the undergraduate (even
> the ones who aren't majoring in mathematics) that is highly
> relevant.

Many things are relevant, but the interest in mathematics is generally
low among the students in engineering and computer science (at least
that's my impression).  As a result, most lecturers here seem to focus
on the basic stuff and present it in a rigorous manner.

> Non-standard analysis, differential forms (can be introduced with
> multivariable calculus), category theory (a high school level
> approach in the book by Lawvere and Schanuel, linear programming,
> really the list is pretty long.

To be honest, I don't think non-standard analysis and differential
forms are really important (compared to the Lebesgue integral, which
is relatively old and not often taught to undergrads), but early
exposure to category theory is probably a good idea (after you have
seen a bunch of algebraic structures, of course).  But it's probably a
bad idea to discuss such things with me because I'm heavily biased
(I'm hardly interested in calculus and applied mathematics, but I'll
admit that's the part which is relevant for most students).

> Personally, I'd much rather spend time studying math than studying Latin; 
> the latter seems a waste of time, like being forced to read Shakespeare. 

The way I learned Latin at school was a bit similar to real
mathematics, in fact more than math itself (we were taught the Latin
grammar in a rather formal way, and math mostly consisted of very
technical symbolic manipulations).

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Florian Weimer]

Marin David Condic <mcondic.auntie.spam@acm.org> writes:

> What surprises me is how much interest there seems to be in Latin
> within this group.

Latin is just another obscure language. ;-)

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Robert Dewar]

In article <3A72D99C.D7B062B3@acm.org>,
  Marin David Condic <mcondic.auntie.spam@acm.org> wrote:
> This whole thread is so far off topic, its rather amazing.
You can't even
> find the word "computer" in it anywhere. What surprises me is
how much
> interest there seems to be in Latin within this group.
>
> A little fun and games is understandable, but maybe this has
drifted on too
> long for C.L.A.? Where are the Usenet Police when you need
them? :-)

Marin, if you feel the need for the Usenet Police in a case
like this, you are using an incompetent news reader. I changed
the subject to the above, to make it perfectly easy for anyone
to suppress the thread if they are not interested. If you are
not able to do this, then that's surprising, any decent news
reader MUST have this capability in my view.

So, assuming your reader DOES have this capability, you have
deliberately decided to read this thread, knowing perfectly
well from the title that it cannot be relevant. You cannot
possibly complain at your own decision to do this.

The time that internet Police are needed is when people go
off-topic WITHOUT changing the subject line. In fact you will
notice that the CLA folk are very disciplined, as soon as I
changed the subject line when the thread started to go
irrelevant, everyone followed, and the original thread was
left unaffected.


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Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Brian Rogoff]

On 27 Jan 2001, Florian Weimer wrote:
> Brian Rogoff <bpr@shell5.ba.best.com> writes:
> > I think that there is quite a bit of modern mathematics that could
> > be brought to the high school student and the undergraduate (even
> > the ones who aren't majoring in mathematics) that is highly
> > relevant.
> 
> Many things are relevant, but the interest in mathematics is generally
> low among the students in engineering and computer science (at least
> that's my impression).  As a result, most lecturers here seem to focus
> on the basic stuff and present it in a rigorous manner.

I'd be happy with less rigor for CS/engineering types and more of what 
physicists call "galley proofs". Many (most?) people can't memorize
formulae so having an idea as to how to derive a formula or theorem, even
if it isn't completely rigorous, is probably better pedagogy. 

> > Non-standard analysis, differential forms (can be introduced with
> > multivariable calculus), category theory (a high school level
> > approach in the book by Lawvere and Schanuel, linear programming,
> > really the list is pretty long.
> 
> To be honest, I don't think non-standard analysis and differential
> forms are really important (compared to the Lebesgue integral, which
> is relatively old and not often taught to undergrads),

I have the opposite view. Mastery of differential forms allows the student
to get more quickly to advanced physics. Non-standard analysis is easier 
to understand than the theory of limits, at least for me. Real analysis, 
the course where you'd meet Lebesgue integration, is not necessary for 
undergraduate engineers at all. 

> exposure to category theory is probably a good idea (after you have
> seen a bunch of algebraic structures, of course).  But it's probably a
> bad idea to discuss such things with me because I'm heavily biased

I agree about the category theory, but I love talking with others who love
maths, even if they love different parts ;-).

> (I'm hardly interested in calculus and applied mathematics, but I'll
> admit that's the part which is relevant for most students).

Gasp! Understanding the infinitesimal calculus is the "pons asinorum" of 
engineering mathematics. Well, now I expect Robert Dewar to tell me that 
I've used "pons asinorum" incorrectly; just trying to keep this
irrelevant, off topic thread on topic.

> > Personally, I'd much rather spend time studying math than studying Latin; 
> > the latter seems a waste of time, like being forced to read Shakespeare. 
> 
> The way I learned Latin at school was a bit similar to real
> mathematics, in fact more than math itself (we were taught the Latin
> grammar in a rather formal way, and math mostly consisted of very
> technical symbolic manipulations).

I have a very strong continuous applied math background, and almost no
Latin background whatsoever. Sounds like you were taught math by reading 
the reference manual rather than the rationale. 

-- Brian

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Pascal Obry]

Robert,

You are not fair ! You most certainly like to remind peoples to stay on topic
and here the discussion is not a CLA one, right ?

Please move this to a private discussion or to another news group. It is not a
good idea to debate about the News reader missing features... or we will have
a very big amount of message on CLA, or is that to bump statistics :)

Pascal.

PS: Pascal, the Usenet Police for this time :)

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--|
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Robert Dewar]

In article <u8znw3vuy.fsf@wanadoo.fr>,
  Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> You are not fair ! You most certainly like to remind peoples
to stay on topic
> and here the discussion is not a CLA one, right ?
>
> Please move this to a private discussion or to another news
group. It is not a
> good idea to debate about the News reader missing features...
or we will have
> a very big amount of message on CLA, or is that to bump
statistics :)

There seem to be quite a few people who like this thread,
including many CLA regulars. So I think it is more reasonable
that those who DON'T want to read it simply kill the thread,
than demand it stop.

As I said before, the only thing that worries me is when a
legitimate discussion goes off topic, but I really can't see
how anyone can object to a thread with the above subject.

(surely you are not telling me you use a reader which cannot
kill threads :-)


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Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[dejmej]

In article <952i6j$nv5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <u8znw3vuy.fsf@wanadoo.fr>,
>   Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > You are not fair ! You most certainly like to
remind peoples
> to stay on topic
> > and here the discussion is not a CLA one,
right ?
> >
> > Please move this to a private discussion or
to another news
> group. It is not a
> > good idea to debate about the News reader
missing features...
> or we will have
> > a very big amount of message on CLA, or is
that to bump
> statistics :)
>
> There seem to be quite a few people who like
this thread,
> including many CLA regulars. So I think it is
more reasonable
> that those who DON'T want to read it simply
kill the thread,
> than demand it stop.
>
> As I said before, the only thing that worries
me is when a
> legitimate discussion goes off topic, but I
really can't see
> how anyone can object to a thread with the
above subject.
>
> (surely you are not telling me you use a reader
which cannot
> kill threads :-)
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>

Which may be decoded to be an allowance to
discuss anything on comp.lang.ada as long as the
thread is popular with an extensive participation?

While being under the heading of "Latin and other
irrelevant topics":
People studying computer languages are grown up
people responsible for their own professional
career. Why bother if their question to
comp.lang.ada is a student homework. Just answer
the question and stop worrying about whether that
is the right studying technique for the person.

Anders Wirzenius


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Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Ken Garlington]

<dejmej@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:9534fn$5nt$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
:
: Which may be decoded to be an allowance to
: discuss anything on comp.lang.ada as long as the
: thread is popular with an extensive participation?

Assuming comp.lang.ada represents a community, and "extensive participation"
implies majority consent that the thread is acceptable to them, sounds
reasonable to me...

: While being under the heading of "Latin and other
: irrelevant topics":
: People studying computer languages are grown up
: people responsible for their own professional
: career. Why bother if their question to
: comp.lang.ada is a student homework. Just answer
: the question and stop worrying about whether that
: is the right studying technique for the person.

In other words, "Am I my brother's keeper?" Personally, I prefer the
alternate view -- that professional engineers (software or otherwise) have
some responsibility to encourage good behaviors in those working to become
(or remain) professionals.

http://computer.org/tab/code11.htm

Definitions. (Was Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics)

[Anders Wirzenius]

"Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote in message
news:28ed6.71$1Q4.26810@news.flash.net...
> <dejmej@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:9534fn$5nt$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> :
> : Which may be decoded to be an allowance to
> : discuss anything on comp.lang.ada as long as the
> : thread is popular with an extensive participation?
>
> Assuming comp.lang.ada represents a community, and "extensive
participation"
> implies majority consent that the thread is acceptable to them, sounds
> reasonable to me...

 is_acceptable ::= written_acceptance | passive_silence | ?
them ::= 80_ %_of_persons_ever_particapated_in_cla | some_of_ ... |
cla_police_force | ?

Anders Wirzenius

Re: Definitions. (Was Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics)

[Ken Garlington]

"Anders Wirzenius" <anders.wirzenius@pp.qnet.fi> wrote in message
news:cgkd6.411$9v.20772@read2.inet.fi...
:
: "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote in message
: news:28ed6.71$1Q4.26810@news.flash.net...
: > <dejmej@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9534fn$5nt$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
: > :
: > : Which may be decoded to be an allowance to
: > : discuss anything on comp.lang.ada as long as the
: > : thread is popular with an extensive participation?
: >
: > Assuming comp.lang.ada represents a community, and "extensive
: participation"
: > implies majority consent that the thread is acceptable to them, sounds
: > reasonable to me...
:
:  is_acceptable ::= written_acceptance | passive_silence | ?
: them ::= 80_ %_of_persons_ever_particapated_in_cla | some_of_ ... |
: cla_police_force | ?
:
: Anders Wirzenius

Yes :)

Re: Latin and other irrelevant topics

[Mark Lundquist]

<dejmej@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:9534fn$5nt$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <952i6j$nv5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > There seem to be quite a few people who like
> this thread,
> > including many CLA regulars. So I think it is
> more reasonable
> > that those who DON'T want to read it simply
> kill the thread,
> > than demand it stop.
> >
> > As I said before, the only thing that worries
> me is when a
> > legitimate discussion goes off topic, but I
> really can't see
> > how anyone can object to a thread with the
> above subject.
> >
>
> Which may be decoded to be an allowance to
> discuss anything on comp.lang.ada as long as the
> thread is popular with an extensive participation?

That's the idea! :-)

As long as the normal etiquette of indicating the off-topicness in the
Subject line, I don't see a thing wrong with it.

One convention found in some newsgroups is to prefix subjects with "OT" for
"off-topic".  Will tolerating these threads cause our signal-to-noise ratio
to plummet?  No, because the discussion will dry up and blow away on its own
if it doesn't get critical mass.  Most of these originated in some relevant
thread, and only after we've gone down a rabbit-trail for a few posts and
are still going strong is the subject line changed to indicate that it's
taken on a life of its own as an off-topic thread.  So if I were to start a
thread on "The secret life of lint", or "Broccoli: large vegetable, or tiny
tree?" it's unlikely that it would be sustained.

I've really enjoyed following this "Latin..." thread.

It's also interesting to see how these threads often have a way of working
themselves back to being on-topic.


:-)
Mark

Subject line correctness

[Anders Wirzenius]

Mark Lundquist wrote in message <95fbit$nen$3@usenet.rational.com>...
>
><dejmej@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:9534fn$5nt$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> In article <952i6j$nv5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>>   Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >
...
>> > As I said before, the only thing that worries
>> me is when a
>> > legitimate discussion goes off topic, but I
>> really can't see
>> > how anyone can object to a thread with the
>> above subject.
>> >
>>
>> Which may be decoded to be an allowance to
>> discuss anything on comp.lang.ada as long as the
>> thread is popular with an extensive participation?
>
>That's the idea! :-)
>
>As long as the normal etiquette of indicating the off-topicness in the
>Subject line, I don't see a thing wrong with it.

So be it.

>
>One convention found in some newsgroups is to prefix subjects with "OT" for
>"off-topic".  Will tolerating these threads cause our signal-to-noise ratio
>to plummet?  No, because the discussion will dry up and blow away on its
own

So I changed the heading of this ,message to "Subject line correctness"

>
>I've really enjoyed following this "Latin..." thread.
>
>It's also interesting to see how these threads often have a way of working
>themselves back to being on-topic.

That you unfortunately cannot read from the subject line unless the content
of it has some indication. You may have dropped the thread some time ago :-(

Re: Subject line correctness

[Mark Lundquist]

Anders Wirzenius <anders.wirzenius@pp.qnet.fi> wrote in message
news:07sf6.15$L12.1783@read2.inet.fi...
>
> Mark Lundquist wrote in message <95fbit$nen$3@usenet.rational.com>...
> >
> >It's also interesting to see how these threads often have a way of
working
> >themselves back to being on-topic.
>
> That you unfortunately cannot read from the subject line

...until someone changes it again.

"Thread morphing" happens to everything, whether on-topic or off.  Just look
at where "Parameter Modes In, In Out and Out" went (I promise to change the
subject line if and when I post on that thread again! :-).  Most threads
that stay alive for more than a few posts devolve into discussions of
something other than the subject line would indicate, and then it's time to
change the subject line.

-- mark