Re: Wrong SI unit specification

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Christoph Grein]

dmitry6243@my-deja.com wrote:

> I believe, Millisiemens is also wrong. Correct would be millisiemens.

No, only the abbreviated form is specified.

> And ft is not foot, but femtoton (:-))

Again no, since ton (1 ton = 1Mg) is no official SI unit, so it can't get a 
prefix. :-b

Christoph

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Howard W. LUDWIG]

I would expect that a German would tend to capitalize the first letter
of unit names, because unit names are nouns and all nouns in German
begin with a capital letter.  Also, we are used to many of the unit
symbols having a capital letter, so why not the names of the units?

In German it is totally appropriate to start the unit names with a
capital letter.  However, in English and French the only approrpriate
times for capitalizing the first letter of a unit name is at the
beginning of a sentence or in the specific exception of degree Celsius
(or when using only upper-case text in which case all the letters are
capitalized).  This is seen in the SI brochure Section 5.2, rule #1,
both the official French version and the English translation.  Both
of these may be obtained from the BIPM web site at

    http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/

This is affirmed in decisions by the USA National Institute of
Standards and Technology (which, by USA law and regulation, the
authority to specify and interpret SI usage in the USA) and
other similar organizations.

What about in Ada?  Clearly unit symbols as identifiers do not
work in Ada due to the conflict in situations like ms, Ms, mS,
and MS (which are four distinct units) but interpreted by Ada
compilers as the same identifier due to the case-insignificance
required in Ada.  Thus, we spell out the names, which following
the custom of other identifiers are typically written first
letter upper case and other letters lower case (no underline
between prefix and root because the unit name is always one
word, except for "degree Celsius" and its multiples and sub-
multiples).  This practice seems to meet the spirit of the
rule, whose intent is to have unit names treated as any other
common noun in text.

Howard W. LUDWIG, Ph.D.

P.S. to Christoph:  I have had problems posting to newsgroups
from work, so if you do not see this reply on comp.lang.ada,
please feel free to forward it there for me or summarize it.

Christoph Grein wrote:

> dmitry6243@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I believe, Millisiemens is also wrong. Correct would be millisiemens.
>
> No, only the abbreviated form is specified.
>
> > And ft is not foot, but femtoton (:-))
>
> Again no, since ton (1 ton = 1Mg) is no official SI unit, so it can't get a
> prefix. :-b
>
> Christoph

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Georg Bauhaus]

Howard W. LUDWIG (howard.w.ludwig@lmco.com) wrote:
: I would expect that a German would tend to capitalize the first letter
: of unit names, because unit names are nouns and all nouns in German
: begin with a capital letter.

This assumption, though plausible, is just one, and another,
leading to the opposite conclusion, is living in a land of
bureaucratic correctness, Germany, will give you NO
permission to even think so :-)

: In German it is totally appropriate to start the unit names with a
: capital letter.

No, no, it is not, at least in a technical context.
You will hear some rather impolite remarks if you do.

Georg Bauhaus

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Gene Nygaard]

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In article <95fapr$1li$1@news-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>,
  sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de (Georg Bauhaus) wrote:
> Howard W. LUDWIG (howard.w.ludwig@lmco.com) wrote:
> : I would expect that a German would tend to capitalize the first
letter
> : of unit names, because unit names are nouns and all nouns in German
> : begin with a capital letter.
>
> This assumption, though plausible, is just one, and another,
> leading to the opposite conclusion, is living in a land of
> bureaucratic correctness, Germany, will give you NO
> permission to even think so :-)
>
> : In German it is totally appropriate to start the unit names with a
> : capital letter.
>
> No, no, it is not, at least in a technical context.
> You will hear some rather impolite remarks if you do.

Yes, capitalization is appropriate in German.  It is only the symbols
for SI units which are international in nature (even the same Greek or
Roman letters in languages which do not use either of those alphabets).

The spelled-out words follow the general rules of the language in which
they are used.  The units are capitalized in German, like other nouns.
They should not be capitalized in English or French.  But French
retains the accent mark in amp�re; English generally does not.
They can be spelled meter (American English, or Norwegian, for example)
or metre (most other English) or m�tre (French) or Meter (German), or
the Italians can spell the prefix chilo- (it still has the symbol k).

One result of these local variations is that in technical use, the use
of numerals and symbols all the time is preferred.  The symbols remain
the same in any language; a "Kilogram" is kg in German, and
a "kilojoule" is kJ in English; both are also the same in any other
language.

--
Gene Nygaard
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/


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Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Georg Bauhaus]

Gene Nygaard (gnygaard@nccray.com) wrote:

:  a "Kilogram" is kg in German, and
: a "kilojoule" is kJ in English; both are also the same in any other
: language.

Ah, yes, names and symbols. 
Thanks for the clarification.

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[dmitry6243]

In article <963qgh$3vl$2@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>,
  sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de (Georg Bauhaus) wrote:
> Gene Nygaard (gnygaard@nccray.com) wrote:
>
> :  a "Kilogram" is kg in German, and
> : a "kilojoule" is kJ in English; both are also the same in any other
> : language.
>
> Ah, yes, names and symbols.
> Thanks for the clarification.

Yes the question is whether full SI names are symbols (as short ones
are).

To make the distinction obvios: Sekunde is the German noun for second.
As such it has an article, flexies etc. Now, from the German bureaucracy
point of view, what is the full SI name of s: "Sekunde" or "second"?

--
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov


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Re: Wrong SI unit specification (& restore Ada relevance somewhat)

[The Ludwig Family]

First, in reply to the comment amount German names of units, if they 
supposedly (as claimed below) do not behave like other nouns and always 
begin with a capital letter, then why does the Physikalisch-Technische 
Bundesanstalt (the German equivalent of the American National Institute 
of Standards and Technology) use the spellings Meter, Kilogramm, 
Sekunde, Ampere, Kelvin, Mol, and so on in the middle of sentences?  
(Ref. Die gesetzlichen Einheiten in Deutschland, at 
http://www.ptb.de/deutsch/onlnpub/sid/sid.pdf).

Germany has historically been rather bureaucratic.  But the EU as a 
whole seems to be even worse.  I have read that the EU was imposing 
the spelling kilometro on the Italians rather than their traditional 
chilometro, which has been used because of the lack of 'k' in the 
Italian alphabet.

Back to Ada relevance:  Ada's lack of case sensitivity forces the 
avoidance of the standard symbols so as to prevent conflict of 
things like ms, Ms, mS, and MS.  There is also the problem of the 
character � (Character'Val(181) if your reader cannot handle the 
Greek mu) for the prefix micro not being a letter for identifiers and 
the upper case Greek omega for ohm not even being in ISO 8859-1.  
Clearly, the only suitable approach is to use spelled-out names.  
The issue comes in whether we regard ourselves as ultimately writing 
Ada or English.  In English, the rule is all lower case except at 
the beginning of a sentence.  However, in Ada the typical practice 
is to write all identifiers starting upper case and the rest lower-
case.  There are no BIPM-imposed rules on the spelling of unit names, 
except for English and French.  They specify only the symbols and 
leave the spelling rules of the names to the natural orthography and 
normal practice to the language in use.  So when I write in Ada, I 
follow the typical Ada practice, not English, although I try to 
make my Ada read reasonably well like English.

Howard W. LUDWIG

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> 
> Howard W. LUDWIG (howard.w.ludwig@lmco.com) wrote:
> : I would expect that a German would tend to capitalize the first letter
> : of unit names, because unit names are nouns and all nouns in German
> : begin with a capital letter.
> 
> This assumption, though plausible, is just one, and another,
> leading to the opposite conclusion, is living in a land of
> bureaucratic correctness, Germany, will give you NO
> permission to even think so :-)
> 
> : In German it is totally appropriate to start the unit names with a
> : capital letter.
> 
> No, no, it is not, at least in a technical context.
> You will hear some rather impolite remarks if you do.
> 
> Georg Bauhaus

SI and German Language (irrelevant, was: Wrong SI unit ...)

[Wilhelm Spickermann]

On 12-Feb-01 The Ludwig Family wrote:
> First, in reply to the comment amount German names of units, if they 
> supposedly (as claimed below) do not behave like other nouns and
> always 
> begin with a capital letter, then why does the
> Physikalisch-Technische 
> Bundesanstalt (the German equivalent of the American National
> Institute 
> of Standards and Technology) use the spellings Meter, Kilogramm, 
> Sekunde, Ampere, Kelvin, Mol, and so on in the middle of sentences? 
...

You and Georg Bauhaus are talking about different "names":

"Kilogramm" is a german noun and has to have an upper case "K". So You
are right (and Dmitry was wrong).

"kg" has to have a lower case "k". So Georg Bauhaus is right.

Wilhelm

Re: SI and German Language (irrelevant, was: Wrong SI unit ...)

[Howard W. LUDWIG]

Wilhelm Spickermann wrote:

> On 12-Feb-01 The Ludwig Family wrote:
> > First, in reply to the comment amount German names of units, if they
> > supposedly (as claimed below) do not behave like other nouns and
> > always begin with a capital letter, then why does the
> > Physikalisch-Technische
> > Bundesanstalt (the German equivalent of the American National
> > Institute
> > of Standards and Technology) use the spellings Meter, Kilogramm,
> > Sekunde, Ampere, Kelvin, Mol, and so on in the middle of sentences?

> You and Georg Bauhaus are talking about different "names":

You may well be right, based on the below:

> "Kilogramm" is a german noun and has to have an upper case "K". So You
> are right (and Dmitry was wrong).

The original and follow-up posts were written in English, except for
a few specific examples.  Therefore, I used English terminology.
This spelled-out name is the one and only meaning in English for the
"name" when used in reference to measurement units.

> "kg" has to have a lower case "k". So Georg Bauhaus is right.

Items like "kg" are referred to in English as symbols, not as names.
Do German physicists use different terminology?  Perhaps we are
getting confused by the physics concept of "name" (for which
"kilogram" qualifies, but not "kg" )versus the Ada concept
of object "names" (or, more properly, identifiers for which both
kilogram and kg could qualify).  Isn't overloading of terminology
fun?

> Wilhelm

Howard W. LUDWIG

Re: SI and German Language (irrelevant, was: Wrong SI unit ...)

[Wilhelm Spickermann]

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On 12-Feb-01 Howard W. LUDWIG wrote:
...
> Items like "kg" are referred to in English as symbols, not as names.
> Do German physicists use different terminology?  Perhaps we are
> getting confused by the physics concept of "name" (for which
> "kilogram" qualifies, but not "kg" )versus the Ada concept
> of object "names" (or, more properly, identifiers for which both
> kilogram and kg could qualify).  Isn't overloading of terminology
> fun?

Yes and I am sure You�ve described at least my confusion correctly. I�ve
studied physics but I have to confess that I don�t remember how I used
these words before I became a programmer.

Wilhelm

Re: SI and German Language (irrelevant, was: Wrong SI unit ...)

[Georg Bauhaus]

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Wilhelm Spickermann (Wilhelm.Spickermann@t-online.de) wrote:

: On 12-Feb-01 Howard W. LUDWIG wrote:
: ...
: > Items like "kg" are referred to in English as symbols, not as names.
: > Do German physicists use different terminology?

:  I�ve
: studied physics but I have to confess that I don�t remember how I used
: these words before I became a programmer.

Pretty much my experience, too.  Sorry if I confused things. 
But indeed there seems to be evidence that the terminology
is not different, in the word "Einheiten-Symbol"
(Einheit = unit).

(However, if you go to the good old market (to by vegetables
and things) you will encounter all sorts of spellings of unit
symbols and names. :-)

Georg Bauhaus

Re: SI and German Language (irrelevant, was: Wrong SI unit ...)

[Georg Bauhaus]

I just found, for those interested,
http://www.math.uni-siegen.de/willms/science/constants/Constants-Online.html

It does not have an accented e in "Ampere", though.
Seems like a good idea to add a lesson on unit specifications
to the curriculum :-)

Re: SI and German Language (irrelevant, was: Wrong SI unit ...)

[Florian Weimer]

"Howard W. LUDWIG" <howard.w.ludwig@lmco.com> writes:

> Items like "kg" are referred to in English as symbols, not as names.
> Do German physicists use different terminology?

SI symbols are called 'SI-Symbole', but most people will call things
like 'kg' 'Einheiten' ('units'), and the distinction is avoided.

Re: Wrong SI unit specification (& restore Ada relevance somewhat)

[Ira D. Baxter]

Regardless of how the issue of spelling out units is resolved,
the real value in having units is to communicate to algorithm
users what the values really mean.

It seems that it would be useful to have the *compiler* know
what the units mean, too, so it could check for misuse.
Imagine assigning ergs to dollars without a cast :-}

How much value would such units-checking provide,
and how can one measure that value?
(I think NASA lost a recent Mars probe to a units misinterpretaion.
It is arguable if compiler-checking would have caught that).

--
Ira D. Baxter, Ph.D.,CTO           email: idbaxter@semdesigns.com
Semantic Designs, Inc.              web: http://www.semdesigns.com
12636 Research Blvd. C-214    voice: (512) 250-1018 x140
Austin, TX 78759-2200             fax: (512) 250-1191


> Clearly, the only suitable approach is to use spelled-out names.
So when I write in Ada, I
> follow the typical Ada practice, not English, although I try to
> make my Ada read reasonably well like English.
>
> Howard W. LUDWIG

Re: Wrong SI unit specification (& restore Ada relevance somewhat)

[Karel Thoenissen]

The Ludwig Family schreef:

> Germany has historically been rather bureaucratic.  But the EU as a
> whole seems to be even worse.  I have read that the EU was imposing
> the spelling kilometro on the Italians rather than their traditional
> chilometro, which has been used because of the lack of 'k' in the
> Italian alphabet.

Nice urban legend. There is no directorate for these matters in Brussel
(indeed spelled 'Brussel'). You must have spoken with a British Eurosceptic
8-)

--

Groeten, Karel Th�nissen

Hello Technologies develops high-integrity software for complex systems

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Howard W. LUDWIG]

I would expect that a German would tend to capitalize the first letter
of unit names, because unit names are nouns and all nouns in German
begin with a capital letter.  Also, we are used to many of the unit
symbols having a capital letter, so why not the names of the units?

In German it is totally appropriate to start the unit names with a
capital letter.  However, in English and French the only approrpriate
times for capitalizing the first letter of a unit name is at the
beginning of a sentence or in the specific exception of degree Celsius
(or when using only upper-case text in which case all the letters are
capitalized).  This is seen in the SI brochure Section 5.2, rule #1,
both the official French version and the English translation.  Both
of these may be obtained from the BIPM web site at

    http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/

This is affirmed in decisions by the USA National Institute of
Standards and Technology (which, by USA law and regulation, the
authority to specify and interpret SI usage in the USA) and
other similar organizations.

What about in Ada?  Clearly unit symbols as identifiers do not
work in Ada due to the conflict in situations like ms, Ms, mS,
and MS (which are four distinct units) but interpreted by Ada
compilers as the same identifier due to the case-insignificance
required in Ada.  Thus, we spell out the names, which following
the custom of other identifiers are typically written first
letter upper case and other letters lower case (no underline
between prefix and root because the unit name is always one
word, except for "degree Celsius" and its multiples and sub-
multiples).  This practice seems to meet the spirit of the
rule, whose intent is to have unit names treated as any other
common noun in text.

Howard W. LUDWIG, Ph.D.

P.S. to Christoph:  I have had problems posting to newsgroups
from work, so if you do not see this reply on comp.lang.ada,
please feel free to forward it there for me or summarize it.

Christoph Grein wrote:

> dmitry6243@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I believe, Millisiemens is also wrong. Correct would be millisiemens.
>
> No, only the abbreviated form is specified.
>
> > And ft is not foot, but femtoton (:-))
>
> Again no, since ton (1 ton = 1Mg) is no official SI unit, so it can't get a
> prefix. :-b
>
> Christoph

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Ian Wild]

"Howard W. LUDWIG" wrote:
> 
> (...the unit name is always one
> word, except for "degree Celsius" and its multiples and sub-
> multiples).

"kelvin"

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Gene Nygaard]

In article <3A7837E3.2DEC0689@cfmu.eurocontrol.be>,
  Ian Wild <ian@cfmu.eurocontrol.be> wrote:
> "Howard W. LUDWIG" wrote:
> >
> > (...the unit name is always one
> > word, except for "degree Celsius" and its multiples and sub-
> > multiples).
>
> "kelvin"

Irrelevant to the point being made.  Degrees Celsius are SI derived
units with a special name.  The units here are degrees; the adjective
identifying them is capitalized in English.  There is no particular
logic in why the adjectives would be treated different from the nouns,
but that is the conventional way in which it is done.

Kelvins are SI base units, written kelvins without an initial capital
in English except when it would normally be capitalized for another
reason, as the one I have at the beginning of this sentence.

--
Gene Nygaard
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/


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Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Singlespeeder]

"Christoph Grein" <christoph.grein@eurocopter.de> wrote in message
news:mailman.980946140.11902.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> dmitry6243@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I believe, Millisiemens is also wrong. Correct would be millisiemens.
>
> No, only the abbreviated form is specified.
>
> > And ft is not foot, but femtoton (:-))
>
> Again no, since ton (1 ton = 1Mg) is no official SI unit, so it can't get
a
> prefix. :-b
>
> Christoph
>
>
Isn't the SI version a tonne and the (ahem) "proper" version the ton. Or am
I just getting mixed up.

Not having a prefix should not be confused with not having abbreviations
since so-called Imperial units predate the SI units, e.g cwt for
hundred-weight, which is of course 100lbs in the USA, but 112lbs here in the
UK.  Of historical note the British often had several versions of the same
measure; the founding fathers eventually settled on one version, whilst we
settled on another.

So what is the short-hand for cubit?

Nick

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[Keith Thompson]

"Singlespeeder" <singlespeeder@btinternet.com> writes:
[...]
> So what is the short-hand for cubit?

About 11 inches.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center           <*>  <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst>
MAKE MONEY FAST!!  DON'T FEED IT!!

Re: Wrong SI unit specification

[dmitry6243]

In article <mailman.980946140.11902.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>,
  comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org wrote:
> dmitry6243@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I believe, Millisiemens is also wrong. Correct would be
> > millisiemens.
>
> No, only the abbreviated form is specified.

http://www.bipm.fr/enus/3_SI/si-derived.html gives both the full
(siemens) and the abbreviated (S) forms.

> > And ft is not foot, but femtoton (:-))

Again no, since ton (1 ton = 1Mg) is no official SI unit, so it can't
get a prefix. :-b

Yes, with or without a prefix it is not a SI unit. However metric ton
is often used with a SI prefix (kiloton, megaton). A nasty consequence
is that ft = 10e-12 kg = ng (:-))

--
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov


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Re: Wrong SI unit specification (non-Ada relevant)

[Robert Dewar]

In article <95ealv$pui$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  dmitry6243@my-deja.com wrote:

It might be good to add irrelevant to the subject line here.
As you know, I do not object to threads that are wholly off
subject, but they should be clearly labeled :-)


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