From: fred@genesis.demon.co.uk (Lawrence Kirby)
Subject: Re: Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java.
Date: 1998/01/03
Date: 1998-01-03T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <883859856snz@genesis.demon.co.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 01bd14b4$dc6f6a80$6428b4cf@carla.ici.net
In article <01bd14b4$dc6f6a80$6428b4cf@carla.ici.net>
carla@ici.net "Alicia Carla Longstreet" writes:
>Robert Dewar wrote:
>: John says
>
>: <<So now a "language" is not defined by the compiler -- or even by the
>: preprocessor+compiler+linker+etc, as some have it...
>: I am forbidden by a piece of paper from calling a function 'memfoo'!
>
>: Of course the answer is that the language is defined by the standard.
>What
>: is surprising is your exclamation mark at the end of a statement that
>should
>: be common understanding for any programmer.
>
>Only programmers who have no concept of what a language, any language is.
On the contrary programmers are one of the few groups of people who have
the opportunity to understand a language right down to the fundamentals.
There are many different forms of communication that have to be considered.
>Even if the Standard does define the language, it only did so on the day
>the standard was finalized.
The standard's job is to define the language. It does so until it is
supplanted by a newer standard.
> Languages, even programming language, evolve
>and change over time.
Sure, however standardised languages change in infrequent large steps rather
than in incrementally in small steps.
> A Standards document can never be a current
>definition of a language, only the definition of the language at some point
>in the past.
C89 (with minor addenda) is the definition of the C language in 1998.
Actually by your argument C89 was never the definiton of the C language,
certainly not when it was ratified in 1989 when no compiler supported it.
> Even so, the ANSI/ISO Standards defining C only define the
>common core of the C language. When C9X is finalized, at that moment it
>will define the core of the C programming language. By the time it is
>actually published and distributed the language will have changed to a
>small extent.
You're not being consistent here. What has happened in that time period
to make it less definitive? If anything more compilers will support it
(which seems to be the basis of you take as the definition of the C
language).
>: Of course the language is not defined by the compiler, or any combination
>: of tools. This is nothing new, languages have been defined by standards
>: for a very long time. C came rather late to the standards business, but
>: even before the ANSI C standard was approved, C was defined by pieces
>: of paper, including for example the reference manual at the back of K&R.
>
>Keep on dreaming. No language, ever, can be defined by a piece of paper.
You'd be amazed then how many are.
>Unless it is a dead language that is no longer used and therefore no longer
>changes. This concept is simply impossible.
Strange, I write a lot of code using C90 as my reference. It doesn't look
dead to me.
>: For anyone to think that a language is usefully defined by a compiler is
>: to me evidence of poor training. No one should be able to get out of any
>: CS degree program with this kind of misconception.
>
>This is true. The language is defined by usage (*All* languages are
>defined by usage).
You're confusing natural and technical languages again. Even in natural
languages a lot of the language is defined by dictionaries and accepted
grammar rules.
>: However, as I said in my earlier message, I am afraid that this confusion
>: is a very common one and is responsible for a huge percentage of the
>problems
>: in porting code, regardless of the language.
>
>Yes it is important to understand the each compiler may represent a
>different dialect of the C language, one that may or may not be compatible
>with any other specific compiler.
Again, C is not a natural language.
>: If your only knowledge of the definition of a language comes from what
>you
>: find is accepted by your compiler, you can be sure that your code is
>unlikely
>: to be anywhere as near portable as it should be.
>
>True. Too many programmers learn from BASIC where there is almost no
>cross-platform or even cross-compiler/interpreter compatibility. It is
>difficult to impress students with the need to write portably with a
>language that is not portable. About as effective as your father telling
>you not to smoke in between drags on his cigarette. Just another reason
>not to use BASIC as a teaching tool (unless you are teaching how to make
>spagetti).
Much of the problem stems from people trying to apply the name BASIC
to a set of mostly incompatible languages with a common core (albeit
rather small). If you tell me a program is written in BASIC it tells me
very little about the program so it isn't a very useful description.
--
-----------------------------------------
Lawrence Kirby | fred@genesis.demon.co.uk
Wilts, England | 70734.126@compuserve.com
-----------------------------------------
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1998-01-03 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 245+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <199712121931.LAA25389@sirius.infonex.com>
1997-12-12 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Roedy Green
1997-12-17 0:00 ` Wes Groleau
1997-12-16 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Alicia Carla Longstreet
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Larry Elmore
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
[not found] ` <01bd0c0b$53cc1860$26db45cf@juddesk>
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-18 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-21 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Chris Gray
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-28 0:00 ` John Winters
1997-12-30 0:00 ` paulr
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most " arnie sherman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Slaman
[not found] ` <01bd198f$4050d960$68c8b5cc@dhite.unicomp.net>
1998-01-06 0:00 ` Jedi
1998-01-10 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-12 0:00 ` Ron Peterson
1998-01-14 0:00 ` anonymous
1998-01-19 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
[not found] ` <01bd2526$66b70fa0$d6d945cf@juddesk>
1998-01-23 0:00 ` dnns
1998-01-23 0:00 ` Philosophers Nick Roberts
1998-01-23 0:00 ` Spam--> was:Re: Philosophers Dann Corbit
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-01-26 0:00 ` Doug Miller
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers Mike Whiten
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers Arnold Trembley
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-26 0:00 ` :-) Philosophers Giovanni Drogo [drogo@rn.bastiani.it]
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers Steve Dekorte
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers John G.
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.3.95. <34cd2808.10685219@newsroom.tassie.net.au>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd2c40$b62837a0$7261b693@HP5079Q>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Philosophers Scott Adams
[not found] ` <01bd2cc0$f0042b70$7261b693@HP5079Q>
1998-02-04 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Back to the topic of CS students. (was Re: Philosophers) cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers jim
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers Samuel Mize
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers suzie
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Philosophers Martin Richardson
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Philosophers Jeff York
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Philosophers Martin Richardson
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Pat O'Connell
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Eddie Armstrong
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Philosophers Nyk Tarr
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Jeff York
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Robert Garskof
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Dave Tholen
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Philosophers cyanide
1998-02-09 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Philosophers Mad Hamish
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Philosophers firewind
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers John G.
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Drifting further off topic cyanide
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers Jens Schweikhardt
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers Mad Hamish
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Philosophers Kurt Wall
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Robert Garskof
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-28 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-29 0:00 ` coryb
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Wayne L. Beavers
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-03 0:00 ` GLE
1998-02-03 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Paul Van Bellinghen
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Jeff Knaggs
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
[not found] ` <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-11 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Larry Wiggins
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Ben Pfaff
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Michael C. Kasten
1998-02-02 0:00 ` This thread has drifted miles from its subject line Wes Groleau
[not found] ` <6alu5l$ <34D6243C.2A53@gc057.fw.hac.com>
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Paul Osborn
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <34E0D798.E29D6CA0@cableol.co.uk>
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <01bd284c$4b0b4fe0$c0f682c1@xhv46.dial.pipex.com>
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34CE059C.634DE881@snet.com>
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Robert Garskof
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34C9F3D0.6B5A@erols.com>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers Warren B. Focke
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Philosophers Warren B. Focke
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers dogmat
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers dogmat
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Film "Contact" Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? cyanide
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Carsten Arnholm
1998-01-15 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-16 0:00 ` Charles F Hankel
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Paul Groves
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Philip Hunt
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 " Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Berna L Massingill
1998-01-04 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-23 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-18 0:00 ` John Seitz
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Robert Robbins
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Mark Wilden
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Ian Upright
1997-12-19 0:00 ` William Murray
1997-12-19 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Robert Munck
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Chip Ling
1997-12-17 0:00 ` James Giles
[not found] ` <349793cb.33600861@news.wxs.nl>
[not found] ` <34923264.75B5@netup.cl>
[not found] ` <670qio$8a$1@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>
[not found] ` <3494B7DA.5463@ici.net>
[not found] ` <34958D16.190C@gsg.eds.com>
[not found] ` <679807$8gm@ws1.emirates.net.ae>
[not found] ` <e9k976.8h3.ln@localhost>
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Klaus-Georg Adams
[not found] ` <67bjnv$j35$1@brie.direct.ca>
[not found] ` <349B0417.D4DB6A30@its.cl>
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-20 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-20 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-21 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-24 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-24 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-29 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
[not found] ` <01bd14b4$dc6f6a80$6428b4cf@carla.ici.net>
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-31 0:00 ` David Thornley
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Keith G. Murphy
1998-01-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-01 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-02 0:00 ` firewind
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Ian Piumarta
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Shelly Mujtaba
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Dean Roddey
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Dean Roddey
1998-01-05 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1998-01-05 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby [this message]
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
[not found] ` <01bd147e$11496760$6a28b4cf@carla.ici.net>
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Jeffrey Templon
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Charles R Martin
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1998-01-28 0:00 ` SmallTalk Execute files Thaminda Erangane Perera
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Griff Lewis
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java Kurt Watzka
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` David Thornley
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` firewind
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Brock
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1998-01-01 0:00 ` firewind
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
1997-12-25 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Kurt Watzka
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Quowong P Liu
1997-12-19 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-24 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
replies disabled
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox