From: fred@genesis.demon.co.uk (Lawrence Kirby)
Subject: Re: Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java.
Date: 1997/12/30
Date: 1997-12-30T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <883441372snz@genesis.demon.co.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 34A812F9.C169A703@its.cl
In article <34A812F9.C169A703@its.cl> gschwarz@its.cl "Guillermo Schwarz" writes:
>Kurt Watzka wrote:
>
>> Guillermo Schwarz <gschwarz@netup.cl> writes:
>>
>> >Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> >> Although 'memcpy' is not a reserved keyword by any means,
>> >> it is a reserved 'external name'.
>> >It is the first time I see reserved external.
>>
>> Well, looks as if there still is something to learn about C for you.
>> The exact wording is "are reserved as identifiers with external
>> linkage", but "reserved external name" looks close enough to me.
>>
>
>It's nice to know C advances so fast I can't keep up to date with its
>definition."Reserved as identifiers" is something meaningful to you?
No, it doesn't out of context. Actually the wording above doesn't appear to
be exact. The full sentence is (in 7.1.3)
"- All identifiers with external linkage in any of the following subclauses
(including the future library directions) are always reserved for use
as identifiers with external linkage"
That means that if any of the following subclauses define an identifier
(or name if you like) as having external linkage then you can't declare
that identifier/name yourself with external linkage. If you do you get
undefined behaviour which means anything can happen. It could be that the
code compiles and does what you expected it to, that the code fails to
compile, that the code compiles and does something completely different
possibly even crashing during execution.
This is reiterated to an extent in subclause 7.13 (Future library durections):
"All external names described below are reserved no matter what headers
are included by the program"
One of the sections "below" is:
"7.13.8 String handling <string.h>
Function names that begin with str, mem, or wcs and a lowercase letter
(followed by any combination of digits, letters, and inderscore) may be
added to the declarations in the <string.h> header."
>Can you reserve a name as a non indentifier?
No, but that's not what it said. You're trying to take this out of context.
>"with external linkage"? Those are too many words just to mean an extrernal
>name.
>The point is, at least when I studied the good and old K&R, it didn't mention
>
>"reserved as identifiers with external linkage", that for me means "don't
>touch this,
>or trick"...
K&R2 doesn't define the language. It is an excellent book but there do seem to
be a few things it doesn't cover properly. The index lists "reserved words"
but that just seems to refer to keywords. Even though it was revised after
the standard was released it seems to be based mainly on a draft standard.
>The C guys modify their language each 3 months just when they
>realize
>something is missing. If you think it is funny, I think it is pretty messy.
I don't know where you got that idea. The text I quoted was directly from
the 1990 ISO standard. The text in the original 1989 ANSI standard is
almost certainly the same - the only major thing that changed between the
two was the section numbering. There have been 2 or maybe 3 changes to the
standard since then but the scope of them is minor, mostly fixing errors
and areas of confusion in the original.
>In Smalltalk, there is USUALLY no need to change the language, but just the
>need
>to add new classes and methods to achieve what's needed.
If you take K&R1 as a revision the C language seems to get revised in a
significant way roughly every 10 years. That's not dissimilar to other
languages (e.g. Ada-83,95 and Fortran 66,77,90)
>> If memcpy is not defined as a function with external linkage, and
>> if <string.h> is not included, an implementation that does not
>> sucessfully translate the program in question is at error. Did
>> you actually _try_ it, and if yes, which implementation did
>> "point out two different implementations"?
>
>You are right! I'm amazed. GNU gcc does implement memcpy directly (what is to
>say thatmemcpy is inlined into the resulting exe, independently from how it
>is defined
>in the program).
It is an optimisation choice the compiler is free to make for itself. This
is possible because the language allows it to do anything it likes if you
break the rules such as try to define your own memcpy() with external
linkage. The compiler is allowed to "know" how standard library functions
behave.
>I would like to follow the only faith: smallTalk, so that my flesh doesn't
>get rotten.
>
>How can somebody have a life, if the ANSI is changing the language so fast?
It isn't. (As an aside ISO has controlled the C standard since 1990).
>They think that by changing minor things they can keep C alive?
>(I'm not meaning C is dead, but let Electronic Engineers do the drivers for
>their
>HW in C, but don't tell the rest of the world C is the right language because
>it
>is well implemented or something else wrong like that).
No, the one thing that standardisation did was to effectively halt the
development of the C language. This is a good thing for the reasons you
imply. However C does still need to be allowed to develop occasionally.
The 1989 language is showing its age in some areas e.g. lack of guaranteed
support for 64 bit (or larger) integers. Being a lower level language
than many it does have greater pressure on it to adapt to changing
hardare capabilities. Still, the change rate is hardly excessive.
>Maybe not too much people write their dirvers in Smalltalk because the
>drivers
>are very simple pieces of code. Drivers have no complex algorithms, they just
>
>need sti(), cli(). That's why drivers are made in C. That's why drivers were
>made
>in assembly.
>
>> The object model and design ideas behind C++ are completely different
>> from Smalltalk.
>
>Objects have behavior and state in both languages.C doesn't have objects, nor
>behavior, nor state.
C has objects but it doesn't have all the OO paraphernalia that goes with
them in a language like C++ (you could say it lacks the behaviour part).
The purpose of an object in C is to store state. Maybe the OOP'ers have a
more abstract view of what an object is.
>C++ is backward compatible with C.
It might be fair to say that C++ is mostly backwards compatible with C.
However there is enough incompatibility to make it a bad idea to try to
compile natural C code with a C++ compiler.
--
-----------------------------------------
Lawrence Kirby | fred@genesis.demon.co.uk
Wilts, England | 70734.126@compuserve.com
-----------------------------------------
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1997-12-30 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 245+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <199712121931.LAA25389@sirius.infonex.com>
1997-12-12 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Roedy Green
1997-12-17 0:00 ` Wes Groleau
1997-12-16 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Alicia Carla Longstreet
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Larry Elmore
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` John Seitz
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Robert Robbins
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Mark Wilden
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Ian Upright
1997-12-19 0:00 ` William Murray
1997-12-19 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Robert Munck
[not found] ` <01bd0c0b$53cc1860$26db45cf@juddesk>
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-18 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-21 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Chris Gray
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-28 0:00 ` John Winters
1997-12-30 0:00 ` paulr
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most " arnie sherman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Slaman
[not found] ` <01bd198f$4050d960$68c8b5cc@dhite.unicomp.net>
1998-01-06 0:00 ` Jedi
1998-01-10 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-12 0:00 ` Ron Peterson
1998-01-14 0:00 ` anonymous
1998-01-19 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
[not found] ` <01bd2526$66b70fa0$d6d945cf@juddesk>
1998-01-23 0:00 ` dnns
1998-01-23 0:00 ` Philosophers Nick Roberts
1998-01-23 0:00 ` Spam--> was:Re: Philosophers Dann Corbit
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-01-26 0:00 ` Doug Miller
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers John G.
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.3.95. <34cd2808.10685219@newsroom.tassie.net.au>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd2c40$b62837a0$7261b693@HP5079Q>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Philosophers Scott Adams
[not found] ` <01bd2cc0$f0042b70$7261b693@HP5079Q>
1998-02-04 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Back to the topic of CS students. (was Re: Philosophers) cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers jim
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers Samuel Mize
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers suzie
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Philosophers Martin Richardson
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Philosophers Jeff York
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Philosophers Martin Richardson
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Pat O'Connell
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Eddie Armstrong
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Philosophers Nyk Tarr
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Jeff York
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Robert Garskof
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Dave Tholen
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Philosophers cyanide
1998-02-09 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Philosophers Mad Hamish
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Philosophers firewind
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers John G.
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Drifting further off topic cyanide
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers Jens Schweikhardt
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers Mad Hamish
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Philosophers Kurt Wall
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers Mike Whiten
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers Arnold Trembley
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-26 0:00 ` :-) Philosophers Giovanni Drogo [drogo@rn.bastiani.it]
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers Steve Dekorte
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Robert Garskof
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-28 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-29 0:00 ` coryb
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Wayne L. Beavers
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-03 0:00 ` GLE
1998-02-03 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Paul Van Bellinghen
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Jeff Knaggs
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
[not found] ` <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-11 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Larry Wiggins
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Ben Pfaff
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-02-02 0:00 ` This thread has drifted miles from its subject line Wes Groleau
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Michael C. Kasten
[not found] ` <6alu5l$ <34D6243C.2A53@gc057.fw.hac.com>
1998-02-05 0:00 ` This thread has drifted miles from its subject line Paul Osborn
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <34E0D798.E29D6CA0@cableol.co.uk>
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <01bd284c$4b0b4fe0$c0f682c1@xhv46.dial.pipex.com>
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34CE059C.634DE881@snet.com>
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Robert Garskof
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34C9F3D0.6B5A@erols.com>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers Warren B. Focke
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Philosophers Warren B. Focke
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers dogmat
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers dogmat
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Film "Contact" Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? cyanide
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Carsten Arnholm
1998-01-15 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-16 0:00 ` Charles F Hankel
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Paul Groves
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Philip Hunt
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 " Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Berna L Massingill
1998-01-04 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-23 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Chip Ling
1997-12-17 0:00 ` James Giles
[not found] ` <349793cb.33600861@news.wxs.nl>
[not found] ` <34923264.75B5@netup.cl>
[not found] ` <670qio$8a$1@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>
[not found] ` <3494B7DA.5463@ici.net>
[not found] ` <34958D16.190C@gsg.eds.com>
[not found] ` <679807$8gm@ws1.emirates.net.ae>
[not found] ` <e9k976.8h3.ln@localhost>
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Klaus-Georg Adams
[not found] ` <67bjnv$j35$1@brie.direct.ca>
[not found] ` <349B0417.D4DB6A30@its.cl>
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-20 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-20 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-21 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-24 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-24 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-29 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
[not found] ` <01bd147e$11496760$6a28b4cf@carla.ici.net>
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Jeffrey Templon
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Charles R Martin
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
[not found] ` <01bd14b4$dc6f6a80$6428b4cf@carla.ici.net>
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-31 0:00 ` David Thornley
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Keith G. Murphy
1998-01-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-01 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-02 0:00 ` firewind
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Ian Piumarta
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Shelly Mujtaba
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Dean Roddey
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Dean Roddey
1998-01-05 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1998-01-05 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1998-01-28 0:00 ` SmallTalk Execute files Thaminda Erangane Perera
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Griff Lewis
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java Kurt Watzka
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby [this message]
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` David Thornley
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` firewind
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Brock
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1998-01-01 0:00 ` firewind
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
1997-12-25 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Kurt Watzka
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Quowong P Liu
1997-12-19 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-24 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
replies disabled
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox