Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Gour]

Hello,

at the moment I'm learning Ada using online version of the John English'
"Ada 95: The Craft of Object-Oriented Programming" book, but would like
to buy Barnes "Programming in Ada 2005" to have it as a reference which
is more readable than a bit dry ARM.

Otoh, the book is a bit expensive, especially for someone from Croatia,
so considering that the purchase should serve me for some considerable
amount of time, I just wonder if there are some news whether John Barnes
is working on Programming in Ada 2012 book in which case we'd postpone
our purchase for some time?


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. 
Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. 
The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because 
they have seen the truth.

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Shark8]

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:24:21 AM UTC-6, Gour wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> at the moment I'm learning Ada using online version of the John English'
> "Ada 95: The Craft of Object-Oriented Programming" book, but would like
> to buy Barnes "Programming in Ada 2005" to have it as a reference which
> is more readable than a bit dry ARM.
> 
> Otoh, the book is a bit expensive, especially for someone from Croatia,
> so considering that the purchase should serve me for some considerable
> amount of time, I just wonder if there are some news whether John Barnes
> is working on Programming in Ada 2012 book in which case we'd postpone
> our purchase for some time?
> 

I *think* he is working on a 2012 book; I seem to recall something about it coming up in a prior thread -- but I'm not entirely sure.

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Randy Brukardt]

"Shark8" <onewingedshark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:b4b6bd3c-b1a7-45cf-9699-392108669c57@googlegroups.com...
> On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:24:21 AM UTC-6, Gour wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> at the moment I'm learning Ada using online version of the John English'
>> "Ada 95: The Craft of Object-Oriented Programming" book, but would like
>> to buy Barnes "Programming in Ada 2005" to have it as a reference which
>> is more readable than a bit dry ARM.
>>
>> Otoh, the book is a bit expensive, especially for someone from Croatia,
>> so considering that the purchase should serve me for some considerable
>> amount of time, I just wonder if there are some news whether John Barnes
>> is working on Programming in Ada 2012 book in which case we'd postpone
>> our purchase for some time?
>>
>
> I *think* he is working on a 2012 book; I seem to recall something about 
> it coming up
> in a prior thread -- but I'm not entirely sure.

He're definitely working on the Ada 2012 Rationale - he wrote me today that 
he's starting a new chapter and that I should be expecting more questions. 
But I don't know if he's working on or planning an update of his Ada opus. 
I'll ask him.

                                          Randy. 

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Peter C. Chapin]

On 03/26/2013 05:36 PM, Randy Brukardt wrote:

 > He're definitely working on the Ada 2012 Rationale - he wrote me 
today that
 > he's starting a new chapter and that I should be expecting more 
questions.
 > But I don't know if he's working on or planning an update of his Ada 
opus.
 > I'll ask him.

I spoke to John at HILT2012 last December and asked him about an Ada 
2012 version of his book. He said he was having trouble with the size of 
the text; apparently the Ada 2005 version is pretty much at the limit 
for a single volume (at least for the publisher he uses... and maybe 
other publishers as well). Thus he'd have to move to a multi-volume 
version of the book, which didn't thrill him.

I was left with the impression that he wasn't sure what to do. I think 
he'd like to update the book but he definitely didn't like the idea of 
going to a two volume work.

Peter

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Gour]

"Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:

> He're definitely working on the Ada 2012 Rationale - he wrote me today that 
> he's starting a new chapter and that I should be expecting more questions. 
> But I don't know if he's working on or planning an update of his Ada opus. 
> I'll ask him.

Thank you very much. You're very kind.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the 
fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Gour]

"Peter C. Chapin" <PChapin@vtc.vsc.edu> writes:

> I was left with the impression that he wasn't sure what to do. I think
> he'd like to update the book but he definitely didn't like the idea of
> going to a two volume work.

Interesting. Thanks a lot for your input.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Whatever action a great man performs, common men follow. And 
whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Maciej Sobczak]

W dniu wtorek, 26 marca 2013 23:24:11 UTC+1 użytkownik Peter C. Chapin napisał:

> I was left with the impression that he wasn't sure what to do. I think 
> he'd like to update the book but he definitely didn't like the idea of 
> going to a two volume work.

But "Programming in Ada 2005" + "Ada 2012 Rationale" *is* a two-volume work already.

Merging these two together even in the form of two-volume book, but with a single title "Programming in Ada 2012" could look better on bookshelves as the message to prospective buyer is different. Who's going to buy "Programming in Ada 2005" today? For today's fresh graduates, for example, year 2005 is a distant history, long before they went to university. Stone age, that is. How is that going to compete with all the buzzwords that they are exposed to nowadays?

Even if it is barely a marketing issue, it should not be neglected. Note that the direct competition, C++11, is starting to hit the shelves at bookstores. Ada2012 looks much better than Ada2005 in this context, so I'd argue for a title refresh, even if it could be just a cover replacement.

-- 
Maciej Sobczak * http://www.msobczak.com * http://www.inspirel.com

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Peter C. Chapin]

On 03/27/2013 04:48 AM, Maciej Sobczak wrote:

> Merging these two together even in the form of two-volume book, but with a single title "Programming in Ada 2012" could look better on bookshelves as the message to prospective buyer is different. Who's going to buy "Programming in Ada 2005" today? For today's fresh graduates, for example, year 2005 is a distant history, long before they went to university. Stone age, that is. How is that going to compete with all the buzzwords that they are exposed to nowadays?
>
> Even if it is barely a marketing issue, it should not be neglected. Note that the direct competition, C++11, is starting to hit the shelves at bookstores. Ada2012 looks much better than Ada2005 in this context, so I'd argue for a title refresh, even if it could be just a cover replacement.
>

I suspect John is aware of these issues. I agree that a new title is 
sexier and that's important. Personally I have to believe it would be 
possible to trim back the current book enough to make space for the new 
Ada 2012 material. It's not like Ada 2012 increased the size of the 
language by 50%.

That said, one of the attractions of the Barnes book is its 
comprehensiveness. Trimming back material would potentially take away 
from that.

Peter

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Shark8]

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 5:24:59 AM UTC-6, Peter C. Chapin wrote:
> On 03/27/2013 04:48 AM, Maciej Sobczak wrote:
> 
> > Merging these two together even in the form of two-volume book, but with a single title "Programming in Ada 2012" could look better on bookshelves as the message to prospective buyer is different. Who's going to buy "Programming in Ada 2005" today? For today's fresh graduates, for example, year 2005 is a distant history, long before they went to university. Stone age, that is. How is that going to compete with all the buzzwords that they are exposed to nowadays?
> >
> > Even if it is barely a marketing issue, it should not be neglected. Note that the direct competition, C++11, is starting to hit the shelves at bookstores. Ada2012 looks much better than Ada2005 in this context, so I'd argue for a title refresh, even if it could be just a cover replacement.
> 
> 
> I suspect John is aware of these issues. I agree that a new title is 
> sexier and that's important. Personally I have to believe it would be 
> possible to trim back the current book enough to make space for the new 
> Ada 2012 material. It's not like Ada 2012 increased the size of the 
> language by 50%.
> 
> That said, one of the attractions of the Barnes book is its 
> comprehensiveness. Trimming back material would potentially take away 
> from that.

I agree with you about the possibility of trimming things back. The difficulty there, as I see it, is that several separate-but-related concepts would have to be overlayed and to do that he'd need to rearrange the order of introduction of certain concepts. {Ex. introducing packages, subprograms, and records very early so that parametrization/genericicity may be introduced on all of them at once.}

There could be advantages to showing such similar concepts together, but it seems like it would be very hard to do it well so those advantages played to rather than being accidentally stumbled upon by certain readers.

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/27/2013 04:24 AM, Peter C. Chapin wrote:
>
> That said, one of the attractions of the Barnes book is its comprehensiveness.
> Trimming back material would potentially take away from that.

Seems to me that if a comprehensive text for a language doesn't fit in a single 
volume, that's a sign that the language has become Too Damn Big.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"The time has come to act, and act fast. I'm leaving."
Blazing Saddles
36

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Eryndlia Mavourneen]

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:40:42 AM UTC-5, Jeffrey Carter wrote:
> On 03/27/2013 04:24 AM, Peter C. Chapin wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > That said, one of the attractions of the Barnes book is its comprehensiveness.
> 
> > Trimming back material would potentially take away from that.
> 
> Seems to me that if a comprehensive text for a language doesn't fit in a single 
> volume, that's a sign that the language has become Too Damn Big.
> 

Don't forget that the Ada "language" includes *much* within the standard that
are left to 3rd-party libraries and tools in other languages.  I have not 
looked at John Barnes' book probably since the 1980s, and so I don't really
know exactly what he covers.  I am sure, however, that adding material on 
containers and user-defined iterators, etc., will bulk things out 
considerably.  :-)   

Also, having the language proper provide facilities that make
it easier for the user of "libraries" should not be treated lightly or with 
disdain.

-- Eryndlia

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Bill Findlay]

On 27/03/2013 16:40, in article kiv7a9$d08$1@dont-email.me, "Jeffrey Carter"
<spam.jrcarter.not@spam.not.acm.org> wrote:

> On 03/27/2013 04:24 AM, Peter C. Chapin wrote:
>> 
>> That said, one of the attractions of the Barnes book is its
>> comprehensiveness.
>> Trimming back material would potentially take away from that.
> 
> Seems to me that if a comprehensive text for a language doesn't fit in a
> single volume, that's a sign that the language has become Too Damn Big.

That assumes that the publisher's limit on volume size is sensible.
In my long experience, publishers are not sensible (or even competent).

-- 
Bill Findlay
with blueyonder.co.uk;
use  surname & forename;

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/27/2013 10:32 AM, Bill Findlay wrote:
> On 27/03/2013 16:40, in article kiv7a9$d08$1@dont-email.me, "Jeffrey Carter"
> <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.not.acm.org> wrote:
>
>> Seems to me that if a comprehensive text for a language doesn't fit in a
>> single volume, that's a sign that the language has become Too Damn Big.
>
> That assumes that the publisher's limit on volume size is sensible.
> In my long experience, publishers are not sensible (or even competent).

/Programming in Ada 2005/ is 848 pp. That seems adequate.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"The time has come to act, and act fast. I'm leaving."
Blazing Saddles
36

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Bill Findlay]

On 27/03/2013 18:19, in article kivd3v$gpg$1@dont-email.me, "Jeffrey Carter"
<spam.jrcarter.not@spam.not.acm.org> wrote:

> On 03/27/2013 10:32 AM, Bill Findlay wrote:
>> On 27/03/2013 16:40, in article kiv7a9$d08$1@dont-email.me, "Jeffrey Carter"
>> <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.not.acm.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Seems to me that if a comprehensive text for a language doesn't fit in a
>>> single volume, that's a sign that the language has become Too Damn Big.
>> 
>> That assumes that the publisher's limit on volume size is sensible.
>> In my long experience, publishers are not sensible (or even competent).
> 
> /Programming in Ada 2005/ is 848 pp. That seems adequate.

The number of pages in a book is not a simple function of its useful
content.  It also depends heavily on the book design.

-- 
Bill Findlay
with blueyonder.co.uk;
use  surname & forename;

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Randy Brukardt]

I wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:24:21 AM UTC-6, Gour wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> at the moment I'm learning Ada using online version of the John English'
>> "Ada 95: The Craft of Object-Oriented Programming" book, but would like
>> to buy Barnes "Programming in Ada 2005" to have it as a reference which
>> is more readable than a bit dry ARM.
>>
>> Otoh, the book is a bit expensive, especially for someone from Croatia,
>> so considering that the purchase should serve me for some considerable
>> amount of time, I just wonder if there are some news whether John Barnes
>> is working on Programming in Ada 2012 book in which case we'd postpone
>> our purchase for some time?
<
> He're definitely working on the Ada 2012 Rationale - he wrote me today 
> that he's starting a new chapter and that I should be expecting more 
> questions. But I don't know if he's working on or planning an update of 
> his Ada opus. I'll ask him.

Here's the definitive answer from John Barnes that he asked me to post:

"John is planning to write Programming in Ada 2012 but he has not yet 
finalized the contract with the publishers; he would not expect it to be 
published before early 2014."

He also said that he's planning to finish the Rationale for Ada 2012 before 
starting on a revision of the book. So it looks like quite a wait for the 
book.

                                        Randy. 

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Gour]

"Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:

> Here's the definitive answer from John Barnes that he asked me to post:

Thank you very much for your effort.

> He also said that he's planning to finish the Rationale for Ada 2012 before 
> starting on a revision of the book. So it looks like quite a wait for the 
> book.

To me it looks as I might try to buy older version of the books which is
considerably cheaper and then wait for PIA 2012.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Before giving up this present body, if one is able to tolerate 
the urges of the material senses and check the force of desire and 
anger, he is well situated and is happy in this world.

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[Stephen Leake]

Jeffrey Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.not.acm.org> writes:

> On 03/27/2013 04:24 AM, Peter C. Chapin wrote:
>>
>> That said, one of the attractions of the Barnes book is its comprehensiveness.
>> Trimming back material would potentially take away from that.
>
> Seems to me that if a comprehensive text for a language doesn't fit in
> a single volume, that's a sign that the language has become Too Damn
> Big.

No, it's a sign that the notion of "single volume" needs rethinking.

This is the twentyfirst century; why should the number of physical
pieces of paper have anything to do with publishing?

Ada is a large, complex language, but it is very well organized, so a
good programmer has no problem comprehending all of it. Programming is a
large, complex field, so programmers have to learn how to handle
complexity - Ada is a good example.

Personally, all I need now are the RM and the source code, and I read
those on a computer, where I can search. But I did use
Norm Cohen's book when I was starting with Ada. A good, thorough
introduction to _everything_ in the language is very useful.

An eBook edition would be very appropriate for a modern programming
language!

--
-- Stephe

Re: Ada 2005 vs Ada 2012

[nosratinia]

Hi,

"Programming in Ada 2012" is available for pre-order at

http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/computer-science/software-engineering-and-development/programming-ada-2012?format=PB

and

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Ada-2012-John-Barnes/dp/110742481X


/Mohsen
On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:24:21 PM UTC+1, Gour wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> at the moment I'm learning Ada using online version of the John English'
> 
> "Ada 95: The Craft of Object-Oriented Programming" book, but would like
> 
> to buy Barnes "Programming in Ada 2005" to have it as a reference which
> 
> is more readable than a bit dry ARM.
> 
> 
> 
> Otoh, the book is a bit expensive, especially for someone from Croatia,
> 
> so considering that the purchase should serve me for some considerable
> 
> amount of time, I just wonder if there are some news whether John Barnes
> 
> is working on Programming in Ada 2012 book in which case we'd postpone
> 
> our purchase for some time?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gour
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. 
> 
> Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. 
> 
> The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because 
> 
> they have seen the truth.