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From: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Subject: Re: Intervention needed?
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 00:13:35 -0700
Date: 2019-03-29T00:13:35-07:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87bm1uxie8.fsf@nightsong.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 28b6a472-6c3a-40a6-8a96-2e27a65ab2ef@googlegroups.com

Maciej Sobczak <see.my.homepage@gmail.com> writes:
> Paul asked for machine verification, so the limitations of human
> reasoning need not bother us.

Systems like SPARK don't do any significant amount of automatic
reasoning.  You do the reasoning in your own head in the usual way.
SPARK them lets you write the reasoning down in a precise enough way
that the verifier can check it.  It's just like how the Ada compiler (or
some other programming language) lets you write down the computational
steps of your algorithm in a precise enough way that the machine can
execute it.

> a continuous measure. Of course, we don't yet have the formal methods
> with such capability, 

Sure we do.  For example, probabilistic algorithms are a thing.  Or you
could prove that with a given distribution of input values, your
algorithm will succeed 98.235% of the time.  There might be some kinds
of tasks for which that is sufficient, especially if you can detect the
failed instances and reprocess them.

Usually though, one resorts to formal methods in order to eliminate as
much uncertainty as possible.  So if you need a bounded WCET you won't
use a hash table, or that type of thing.


  reply	other threads:[~2019-03-29  7:13 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 146+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-03-08 16:43 Intervention needed? Olivier Henley
2019-03-08 16:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-08 17:31 ` gautier_niouzes
2019-03-11 14:31   ` antispam
2019-03-11 15:07     ` gautier_niouzes
2019-03-11 17:19     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-11 15:34 ` Lucretia
2019-03-11 17:30   ` Simon Wright
2019-03-11 17:42     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-11 18:14       ` AdaMagica
2019-03-11 19:52   ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-11 20:04     ` Lucretia
2019-03-11 22:08   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-12  2:04     ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 13:17       ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-12 16:32       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-12 16:56         ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 17:20           ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 18:14         ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-12 19:21           ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 21:53             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-13 10:50               ` Jere
2019-03-17 12:52               ` Optikos
2019-03-17 16:37                 ` Luke A. Guest
2019-03-17 16:48                 ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  0:49                   ` Optikos
2019-03-20  1:04                     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  1:19                       ` Optikos
2019-03-18 23:36                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19  2:18                   ` Optikos
2019-03-19  8:44                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-19  9:53                       ` Optikos
2019-03-19 22:13                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19 22:26                           ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  1:08                             ` Jere
2019-03-22  2:26                               ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 15:56                                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-23 21:38                                   ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-19 22:36                           ` Optikos
2019-03-19 23:13                             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-20  1:28                               ` Jere
2019-03-20  8:42                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-22  2:00                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22 11:10                                   ` Jere
2019-03-23  8:03                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 21:32                                       ` Jere
2019-03-20  7:59                               ` Optikos
2019-03-22  2:16                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22  8:38                                   ` Optikos
2019-03-22 10:54                                     ` Jere
2019-03-23  7:53                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 13:59                                         ` Jere
2019-03-23 21:19                                           ` Jere
2019-03-23 21:29                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-26  8:09                                           ` Optikos
2019-03-20  1:20                           ` Jere
2019-03-22  2:30                             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22  9:08                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-22 22:23                                 ` Optikos
2019-03-27 19:20                                   ` G. B.
2019-03-27 21:02                                     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-28  7:01                                       ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-03-28  7:17                                         ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-28  8:39                                           ` Simon Wright
2019-03-30  4:31                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-30 22:14                                           ` Robert A Duff
2019-03-30 22:55                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-28  9:06                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-28 20:48                                           ` G. B.
2019-03-29  5:13                                             ` Bojan Bozovic
2019-03-29  8:13                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-29  6:57                                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-03-29  7:13                                             ` Paul Rubin [this message]
2019-03-29  8:39                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-01 15:13                                               ` Optikos
2019-04-01 16:51                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-01 21:42                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-02  8:30                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-02 15:53                                                       ` Anh Vo
2019-03-19 22:04                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19 22:22                         ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-19 23:01                           ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19  9:37                     ` Optikos
2019-03-19 22:21                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 17:56                   ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-29 22:17                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 22:35                       ` Florian Weimer
2019-04-01 21:17                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 17:41               ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-29 22:16                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 22:43                   ` Florian Weimer
2019-04-01 21:29                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-01 22:14                       ` Simon Wright
2019-04-02 21:55                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-04 15:07                           ` Simon Wright
2019-03-12 21:41         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-13  9:10     ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-03-13 11:08       ` Jere
2019-03-13 11:11         ` Jere
2019-03-13 11:59         ` Jere
2019-03-13 13:44       ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-13 15:56         ` Simon Wright
2019-03-13 16:25           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-14  0:40             ` Simon Wright
2019-03-13 16:27           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-14 22:41         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-16 21:30           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-29 17:38     ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-13 13:23 ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-22 11:10 ` Lucretia
2019-03-22 14:09   ` J-P. Rosen
2019-03-22 16:41   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-22 17:29     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-22 22:36       ` Optikos
2019-04-01  7:28 ` gautier_niouzes
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2019-03-25 19:14 Randy Brukardt
2019-03-25 20:44 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-28  0:48 ` Jere
2019-04-02 22:07 Randy Brukardt
2019-04-03  7:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 14:31   ` Optikos
2019-04-03 14:54     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 15:29       ` Optikos
2019-04-03 16:16       ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 17:15         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 21:12           ` Simon Wright
2019-04-04  7:09             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-04  5:44           ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-04-04  7:17             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-04  7:22             ` Paul Rubin
2019-04-04  8:37               ` Niklas Holsti
2019-04-05  0:13                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-05  5:45                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-04-05 15:17                   ` Optikos
2019-04-06  1:38                     ` Jere
2019-04-06  4:25                       ` alby.gamper
2019-04-06  6:49                         ` Jere
2019-04-06  8:24                           ` alby.gamper
2019-04-04 12:28             ` Simon Wright
2019-04-04 16:17           ` Optikos
2019-04-03 15:07 ` Lucretia
2019-04-03 16:15   ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 17:23 ` Niklas Holsti
2019-04-03 17:48   ` Bill Findlay
2019-04-03 21:01   ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 18:58 ` Dennis Lee Bieber
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