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From: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Subject: Re: Intervention needed?
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 00:17:35 -0700
Date: 2019-03-28T00:17:35-07:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <877ecjwjqo.fsf@nightsong.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 4e240c66-dce8-417f-9147-a53973681e29@googlegroups.com

Maciej Sobczak <see.my.homepage@gmail.com> writes:
> Which brings a potentially interesting question - what if the
> reasoning in my head has a continuous measure of correctness? Like,
> say, I'm 95% confident that the reasoning is correct? Should I deploy
> my system or not? The mechanical proof will fail 100% of the time, but
> that does not mean that the software is entirely useless for my user,
> who also has his own continuous measure of risk and level of failure
> acceptance.

I would say that in a high-assurance system (which is the normal
situation where one talks about SPARK and proofs), what you describe is
by definition not allowed.  That's using the notion of high-assurance
software from here:

https://dwheeler.com/essays/high-assurance-floss.html

Of course you could redefine your system to be medium-assurance and let
it through.  Usually that type of software is validated through more
conventional testing processes.

Fwiw, there's a video on Youtube of Adacore founder Bob Dewar talking
about the flight software for the F-22 fighter plane, where he asks
whether that software should be considered safety-critical.  The
audience laughs, but Dewar goes on to say that of course a passenger
plane's software is safety-critical, but the whole idea of a fighter
plane is to go up and get shot at, the controls let the pilot
deliberately run the engines above their power envelope, etc.  IIRC he
said that the F-22 program managers didn't buy that argument and still
wanted the software to be treated as safety-critical.

Be careful too of "normalization of deviance", the sociological process
that led the Space Shuttle staff to accept more and more misbehaviour
from the Shuttle until the Challenger exploded.  The term is from Diane
Vaughan's book "The Challenger Launch Decision", which I want to get
around to reading someday.

  reply	other threads:[~2019-03-28  7:17 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 146+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-03-08 16:43 Intervention needed? Olivier Henley
2019-03-08 16:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-08 17:31 ` gautier_niouzes
2019-03-11 14:31   ` antispam
2019-03-11 15:07     ` gautier_niouzes
2019-03-11 17:19     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-11 15:34 ` Lucretia
2019-03-11 17:30   ` Simon Wright
2019-03-11 17:42     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-11 18:14       ` AdaMagica
2019-03-11 19:52   ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-11 20:04     ` Lucretia
2019-03-11 22:08   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-12  2:04     ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 13:17       ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-12 16:32       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-12 16:56         ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 17:20           ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 18:14         ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-12 19:21           ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 21:53             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-13 10:50               ` Jere
2019-03-17 12:52               ` Optikos
2019-03-17 16:37                 ` Luke A. Guest
2019-03-17 16:48                 ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  0:49                   ` Optikos
2019-03-20  1:04                     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  1:19                       ` Optikos
2019-03-18 23:36                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19  2:18                   ` Optikos
2019-03-19  8:44                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-19  9:53                       ` Optikos
2019-03-19 22:13                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19 22:26                           ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  1:08                             ` Jere
2019-03-22  2:26                               ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 15:56                                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-23 21:38                                   ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-19 22:36                           ` Optikos
2019-03-19 23:13                             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-20  1:28                               ` Jere
2019-03-20  8:42                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-22  2:00                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22 11:10                                   ` Jere
2019-03-23  8:03                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 21:32                                       ` Jere
2019-03-20  7:59                               ` Optikos
2019-03-22  2:16                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22  8:38                                   ` Optikos
2019-03-22 10:54                                     ` Jere
2019-03-23  7:53                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 13:59                                         ` Jere
2019-03-23 21:19                                           ` Jere
2019-03-23 21:29                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-26  8:09                                           ` Optikos
2019-03-20  1:20                           ` Jere
2019-03-22  2:30                             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22  9:08                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-22 22:23                                 ` Optikos
2019-03-27 19:20                                   ` G. B.
2019-03-27 21:02                                     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-28  7:01                                       ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-03-28  7:17                                         ` Paul Rubin [this message]
2019-03-28  8:39                                           ` Simon Wright
2019-03-30  4:31                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-30 22:14                                           ` Robert A Duff
2019-03-30 22:55                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-28  9:06                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-28 20:48                                           ` G. B.
2019-03-29  5:13                                             ` Bojan Bozovic
2019-03-29  8:13                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-29  6:57                                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-03-29  7:13                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-29  8:39                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-01 15:13                                               ` Optikos
2019-04-01 16:51                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-01 21:42                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-02  8:30                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-02 15:53                                                       ` Anh Vo
2019-03-19 22:04                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19 22:22                         ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-19 23:01                           ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19  9:37                     ` Optikos
2019-03-19 22:21                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 17:56                   ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-29 22:17                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 22:35                       ` Florian Weimer
2019-04-01 21:17                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 17:41               ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-29 22:16                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 22:43                   ` Florian Weimer
2019-04-01 21:29                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-01 22:14                       ` Simon Wright
2019-04-02 21:55                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-04 15:07                           ` Simon Wright
2019-03-12 21:41         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-13  9:10     ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-03-13 11:08       ` Jere
2019-03-13 11:11         ` Jere
2019-03-13 11:59         ` Jere
2019-03-13 13:44       ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-13 15:56         ` Simon Wright
2019-03-13 16:25           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-14  0:40             ` Simon Wright
2019-03-13 16:27           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-14 22:41         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-16 21:30           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-29 17:38     ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-13 13:23 ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-22 11:10 ` Lucretia
2019-03-22 14:09   ` J-P. Rosen
2019-03-22 16:41   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-22 17:29     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-22 22:36       ` Optikos
2019-04-01  7:28 ` gautier_niouzes
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2019-03-25 19:14 Randy Brukardt
2019-03-25 20:44 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-28  0:48 ` Jere
2019-04-02 22:07 Randy Brukardt
2019-04-03  7:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 14:31   ` Optikos
2019-04-03 14:54     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 15:29       ` Optikos
2019-04-03 16:16       ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 17:15         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 21:12           ` Simon Wright
2019-04-04  7:09             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-04  5:44           ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-04-04  7:17             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-04  7:22             ` Paul Rubin
2019-04-04  8:37               ` Niklas Holsti
2019-04-05  0:13                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-05  5:45                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-04-05 15:17                   ` Optikos
2019-04-06  1:38                     ` Jere
2019-04-06  4:25                       ` alby.gamper
2019-04-06  6:49                         ` Jere
2019-04-06  8:24                           ` alby.gamper
2019-04-04 12:28             ` Simon Wright
2019-04-04 16:17           ` Optikos
2019-04-03 15:07 ` Lucretia
2019-04-03 16:15   ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 17:23 ` Niklas Holsti
2019-04-03 17:48   ` Bill Findlay
2019-04-03 21:01   ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 18:58 ` Dennis Lee Bieber
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