* Re: linux desktop in trouble
2020-03-19 6:07 ` ldries46
@ 2020-03-19 8:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2020-03-20 15:32 ` Optikos
2020-03-24 10:01 ` ldries46
2020-03-22 17:27 ` mgr
2020-03-23 18:39 ` Bob Goddard
2 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2020-03-19 8:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
On 2020-03-19 07:07, ldries46 wrote:
> As a newcomer in the Linux world I can feel what he means. But I just
> think that it is not so much the problem of the desktops themselve but
> of the lack of standardized installation procedures. There should be
> some installation programs as there are in windows, these programs
> should be independent of the type of desktop you are using. And of
> course they should be complete.
Well, it is rather exactly the opposite. Windows has no standardized
installation procedure and rules, at all. There exist msi files, very
few use them and it does not make much difference. Otherwise, it is just
an executable that does any wild thing it pleases after you allow it to
elevate itself to the administrative rights.
> Take for instance GNAT GPS and GtkAda.
It is especially so with GTK. Basically any Windows program that uses
GTK hoards its own copy of. It is a total mess under Windows.
> GNAT GPS before running the installation you must make the package
> executable, it should be delivered execuable as under Windows.
No. It simply should be better maintained as a deb-package, if we are
talking about Ubuntu.
Situation under Linux is far from perfect but is way better than under
Windows.
> This is not a problem of the desktop itself but of the producers of
> software.
True. It would be nice if AdaCore packaged its community GNAT for major
Linux platforms: Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS. The problem is the
resources. It is a lot of work, which, I assume, they prefer to apply on
other places.
FSF packages are simply undermaintained. The compiler itself works out
of the box. But GtkAda, GPS (and frequently gprbuild) always had problems.
--
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: linux desktop in trouble
2020-03-19 8:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2020-03-20 15:32 ` Optikos
2020-03-20 20:43 ` Randy Brukardt
2020-03-24 10:01 ` ldries46
1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Optikos @ 2020-03-20 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 3:46:48 AM UTC-5, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> On 2020-03-19 07:07, ldries46 wrote:
>
> > As a newcomer in the Linux world I can feel what he means. But I just
> > think that it is not so much the problem of the desktops themselve but
> > of the lack of standardized installation procedures. There should be
> > some installation programs as there are in windows, these programs
> > should be independent of the type of desktop you are using. And of
> > course they should be complete.
>
> Well, it is rather exactly the opposite. Windows has no standardized
> installation procedure and rules, at all.
Wrong! There are a plethora of extraordinarily strict rules that an app (either desktop or UWP) must obey to be admitted into the 1 official app distribution infrastructure: Microsoft Store.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/publish/store-policies-and-code-of-conduct
Even if an x86/x64-only desktop app seeks to distribute through the Microsoft Store and forego ARM, Hololens, and Xbox deployments:
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/bridges/desktop
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: linux desktop in trouble
2020-03-20 15:32 ` Optikos
@ 2020-03-20 20:43 ` Randy Brukardt
2020-03-20 21:58 ` Dennis Lee Bieber
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Randy Brukardt @ 2020-03-20 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
"Optikos" <ZUERCHER_Andreas@outlook.com> wrote in message
news:b11b23e7-fec1-4deb-ba63-2cb0b4e15f5c@googlegroups.com...
> On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 3:46:48 AM UTC-5, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>> On 2020-03-19 07:07, ldries46 wrote:
>>
>> > As a newcomer in the Linux world I can feel what he means. But I just
>> > think that it is not so much the problem of the desktops themselve but
>> > of the lack of standardized installation procedures. There should be
>> > some installation programs as there are in windows, these programs
>> > should be independent of the type of desktop you are using. And of
>> > course they should be complete.
>>
>> Well, it is rather exactly the opposite. Windows has no standardized
>> installation procedure and rules, at all.
>
> Wrong! There are a plethora of extraordinarily strict rules that an app
>(either desktop or UWP) must obey to be admitted into the 1 official app
>distribution infrastructure: Microsoft Store.
Sure, but does anyone actually use that for desktop software? I've never
once gotten anything from it.
Note that Microsoft has had such requirements for decades (for instance, to
get a "logo"), but those have been widely ignored. Especially for cheap/free
software and highly speciallized software.
I believe I spent the time to read them once. ;-) That's it. Microsoft sets
requirements to make Microsoft money; little actually helps the users (and
when they accidentally land on something that does help users, they change
it in a year or to because someone had a better idea).
Randy.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: linux desktop in trouble
2020-03-19 8:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2020-03-20 15:32 ` Optikos
@ 2020-03-24 10:01 ` ldries46
2020-03-24 10:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: ldries46 @ 2020-03-24 10:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dmitry A. Kazakov
I do not agree with Dmitry for the simple reason that every installing
routine asks from the sender take amateures into account. and as Gtk is
that is as I see it more a problem for the designers than of the
operating system itself. Even under windows you can make a mess of it.
Op 19-3-2020 om 9:46 schreef Dmitry A. Kazakov:
> On 2020-03-19 07:07, ldries46 wrote:
>
>> As a newcomer in the Linux world I can feel what he means. But I just
>> think that it is not so much the problem of the desktops themselve
>> but of the lack of standardized installation procedures. There should
>> be some installation programs as there are in windows, these programs
>> should be independent of the type of desktop you are using. And of
>> course they should be complete.
>
> Well, it is rather exactly the opposite. Windows has no standardized
> installation procedure and rules, at all. There exist msi files, very
> few use them and it does not make much difference. Otherwise, it is
> just an executable that does any wild thing it pleases after you allow
> it to elevate itself to the administrative rights.
>
>> Take for instance GNAT GPS and GtkAda.
>
> It is especially so with GTK. Basically any Windows program that uses
> GTK hoards its own copy of. It is a total mess under Windows.
>
>> GNAT GPS before running the installation you must make the package
>> executable, it should be delivered execuable as under Windows.
>
> No. It simply should be better maintained as a deb-package, if we are
> talking about Ubuntu.
>
> Situation under Linux is far from perfect but is way better than under
> Windows.
>
>> This is not a problem of the desktop itself but of the producers of
>> software.
>
> True. It would be nice if AdaCore packaged its community GNAT for
> major Linux platforms: Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS. The problem is
> the resources. It is a lot of work, which, I assume, they prefer to
> apply on other places.
>
> FSF packages are simply undermaintained. The compiler itself works out
> of the box. But GtkAda, GPS (and frequently gprbuild) always had
> problems.
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: linux desktop in trouble
2020-03-24 10:01 ` ldries46
@ 2020-03-24 10:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2020-03-24 15:27 ` Optikos
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2020-03-24 10:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
On 2020-03-24 11:01, ldries46 wrote:
> I do not agree with Dmitry for the simple reason that every installing
> routine asks from the sender take amateures into account. and as Gtk is
> that is as I see it more a problem for the designers than of the
> operating system itself. Even under windows you can make a mess of it.
Windows simply has no means to handle software components coming not
from Microsoft. So GTK's run-time and/or developing cannot be versioned
and shared by applications. It is not GTK problem it is Windows problem.
E.g. Python has exactly same issues.
--
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: linux desktop in trouble
2020-03-24 10:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2020-03-24 15:27 ` Optikos
0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Optikos @ 2020-03-24 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Tuesday, March 24, 2020 at 5:29:08 AM UTC-5, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> On 2020-03-24 11:01, ldries46 wrote:
>
> > I do not agree with Dmitry for the simple reason that every installing
> > routine asks from the sender take amateures into account. and as Gtk is
> > that is as I see it more a problem for the designers than of the
> > operating system itself. Even under windows you can make a mess of it.
>
> Windows simply has no means to handle software components coming not
> from Microsoft.
Wrong! Package dependencies can be declared in Windows 10, then utilized at time of installation of (nonMicrosoft) packages that depend on other (nonMicrosoft) packages:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/schemas/appxpackage/uapmanifestschema/element-dependencies
“Dependencies must be explicitly defined. If a dependency cannot be resolved, deployment of the package fails.”
> So GTK's run-time and/or developing cannot be versioned
> and shared by applications. It is not GTK problem it is Windows problem.
> E.g. Python has exactly same issues.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Dmitry A. Kazakov
> http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: linux desktop in trouble
2020-03-19 6:07 ` ldries46
2020-03-19 8:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2020-03-22 17:27 ` mgr
2020-03-23 18:39 ` Bob Goddard
2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: mgr @ 2020-03-22 17:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
El 19/3/20 a las 7:07, ldries46 escribió:
> As a newcomer in the Linux world I can feel what he means. But I just
think that it is not so much the problem of the desktops themselve but
of the lack of standardized installation procedures. There should be
some installation programs as there are in windows, these programs
should be independent of the type of desktop you are using. And of
course they should be complete.
You are right, but that gap is starting to be filled by snaps
(https://snapcraft.io/) or AppImage files.
> Take for instance GNAT GPS and GtkAda.
> GNAT GPS before running the installation you must make the package
executable, it should be delivered execuable as under Windows. In Ubuntu
you need to create a .Desktop File to run it from the desktop, that
should be automaticely be created.
> GtkAda in Windows is one package completely installable. Under Linux
it is broken into several parts which you first have to locate.
> This is not a problem of the desktop itself but of the producers of
software.
They should consider using a snap package and the process would be easy
as installing a distribution package.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: linux desktop in trouble
2020-03-19 6:07 ` ldries46
2020-03-19 8:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2020-03-22 17:27 ` mgr
@ 2020-03-23 18:39 ` Bob Goddard
2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Bob Goddard @ 2020-03-23 18:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Thursday, 19 March 2020 06:07:21 UTC, ldries46 wrote:
[...]
> Take for instance GNAT GPS and GtkAda.
> GNAT GPS before running the installation you must make the package
> executable, it should be delivered execuable as under Windows. In Ubuntu
> you need to create a .Desktop File to run it from the desktop, that
> should be automaticely be created.
[...]
Eh, part of the windows problem is that files can be executed just by their name. Under Unix/Linux, you do have better control.
And no, you do not need to create .Desktop file to run it. From a shell, chmod +x <file>, then ./<file>...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread