* Ada Skill Assessments @ 1999-07-01 0:00 Joe Wisniewski 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Joe Wisniewski @ 1999-07-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Has there been any serious discussions of this issue as it relates to Ada skill assessments? (I'll answer my own question :--) ) Among the last several "Ada clients" for which I have done work, I am seeing, in general, a degradation of skilled Ada talent. Now, upon closer analysis, the "actual" skills that I am seeing "lacking" may or may not be due to one or more of the following: over-influx of "young talent" (Refer to previous posts on c.l.a. wrt "Looking for Jr. Ada people") general lack of engineering skills lack of OO training/experience lack of _effective_ Ada training/experience (I emphasize _effective_ because I am seeing many organizations going to these 1 or 2 day internal Ada training classes and claiming their engineers are now "Ada proficient".) Since the amount of available Ada work FAR exceeds the available skilled Ada talent, is it not now the time for ACM/SigAda or some association of vendors/clients/headhunters related to Ada talent to come up with an assessment. Feasibility? Need? Want? Thoughts? Something to have a "Birds of a Feather" meeting in Redondo on? Joe Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 Ada Skill Assessments Joe Wisniewski @ 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Joe Wisniewski 1999-07-01 0:00 ` edabobojr 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Pascal Obry 2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 1999-07-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <7lgb74$kob$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Joe Wisniewski <wisniew@acm.org> wrote: > Among the last several "Ada clients" for which I have done work, > I am seeing, in general, a degradation of skilled Ada talent. Now, > upon closer analysis, the "actual" skills that I am seeing "lacking" > may or may not be due to one or more of the following: Is this situation really any different in Ada than in other "skills"? It seems there just aren't enough engineers to go around these days... -- T.E.D. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Joe Wisniewski 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Joe Wisniewski @ 1999-07-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Agreed. No difference. Several points: 1. Got to start somewhere if we are going to start. 2. Although, it might be worthwhile, in theory, to talk about whether someone is "certified" in OO, I as an employer/client would be much more interested in whether this knowledge translates to "certifiability" in Ada or Smalltalk or C++ or Java or whatever. I really get the feeling out here that clients are simply not interested in doing real training. (OJT can take care of it) AND they are really getting frustrated with the job shops that sell Ada talent that is just not there. I see a lot of frustration among the higher talented Ada people out there that the spread of salary/rates is NOT commensurate with the "spread" of capabilities. IM(ns)HO Joe In article <7lgccn$lc2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote: > In article <7lgb74$kob$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Joe Wisniewski <wisniew@acm.org> wrote: > > > Among the last several "Ada clients" for which I have done work, > > I am seeing, in general, a degradation of skilled Ada talent. Now, > > upon closer analysis, the "actual" skills that I am seeing "lacking" > > may or may not be due to one or more of the following: > > Is this situation really any different in Ada than in other "skills"? It > seems there just aren't enough engineers to go around these days... > > -- > T.E.D. > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Joe Wisniewski @ 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Joe Wisniewski 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 1999-07-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <7lgdbn$lnn$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Joe Wisniewski <wisniew@acm.org> wrote: > I see a lot of frustration among the higher talented Ada people out > there that the spread of salary/rates is NOT commensurate with the > "spread" of capabilities. I agree about that part personally. But from my experience as an interviewee there are 2 main reasons for that attitude on the part of employers: 1) Unless they know you already, they have no good way of really figuring out how good (or bad) you are just from an interview. They tend to just rely on their impression of your personality during the interview. If you don't interview well, your offer will suffer. Charasimatic boat-anchors who do interview well often get great offers. That is something your proposal could go some of the way toward fixing. 2) Companies have a fixed salary structure that they must squeeze you into. This structure is typically based on years of experience, not "quality of skills". If you try to ask for more than they typically give an engineer with your years of experience, they act like you'll start an insurrection. I don't see how you can do anything about that. The only real solution I see to this for a truly frustrated engineer is to go into the contracting market, where hourly rates supposedly do tend to be based on the quality of the work you can perform. -- T.E.D. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Joe Wisniewski 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Joe Wisniewski @ 1999-07-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <7lgh40$n8l$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote: > In article <7lgdbn$lnn$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Joe Wisniewski <wisniew@acm.org> wrote: > > I see a lot of frustration among the higher talented Ada people out > > there that the spread of salary/rates is NOT commensurate with the > > "spread" of capabilities. > > I agree about that part personally. But from my experience as > an interviewee there are 2 main reasons for that attitude on the part of > employers: > > 1) Unless they know you already, they have no good way of > really figuring out how good (or bad) you are just from an interview. > They tend to just rely on their impression of your personality during > the interview. If you don't interview well, your offer will suffer. > Charasimatic boat-anchors who do interview well often get great offers. > > That is something your proposal could go some of the way toward fixing. > > 2) Companies have a fixed salary structure that they must squeeze you > into. This structure is typically based on years of experience, not > "quality of skills". If you try to ask for more than they typically give > an engineer with your years of experience, they act like you'll start an > insurrection. > > I don't see how you can do anything about that. > > The only real solution I see to this for a truly frustrated engineer is > to go into the contracting market, where hourly rates supposedly do tend > to be based on the quality of the work you can perform. > Risking taking this discussion down a non-Ada path: Assuming we are talking about "contracting" instead of "consulting", it seems more and more clients pay at a fixed rate for ALL bodies that a shop places. Even the lesser-skilled individuals are in a position to demand and their rates are pushed higher, faster. But even in the cases where clients discriminate, they are not discriminating that much. I've been in situation(s) recently where contractors have gotten tired of surfing the web, while I'm doing a 20K line port in a month with OT. Difference in rate: $8-$10 hour. I am seeing very few clients with "rate sheets" with 5-7 classifications of staff as in days gone past. Joe > -- > T.E.D. > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 Ada Skill Assessments Joe Wisniewski 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 1999-07-01 0:00 ` edabobojr 1999-07-01 0:00 ` David Botton ` (3 more replies) 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Pascal Obry 2 siblings, 4 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: edabobojr @ 1999-07-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <7lgb74$kob$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Joe Wisniewski <wisniew@acm.org> wrote: > Has there been any serious discussions of this issue as it relates > to Ada skill assessments? > > (I'll answer my own question :--) ) > > Among the last several "Ada clients" for which I have done work, > I am seeing, in general, a degradation of skilled Ada talent. Now, > upon closer analysis, the "actual" skills that I am seeing "lacking" > may or may not be due to one or more of the following: > > over-influx of "young talent" (Refer to previous posts on c.l.a. > wrt "Looking for Jr. Ada people") > > general lack of engineering skills > > lack of OO training/experience > > lack of _effective_ Ada training/experience > <snip> I was wondering how you would recommend the "young talent" develop their Ada skills. After using Ada throughout college I took a position in another language and am interested in developing my abilities to possibly become a competent Ada programmer for later jobs. Any input or recommendations would be appreciated. Thank you Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 ` edabobojr @ 1999-07-01 0:00 ` David Botton 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Ted Dennison ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 1999-07-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Design and write code. Study quality code of others. Perhaps even write some code or tools for the Ada community. Contiribute samples to the Ada Source Code Treasury on AdaPower.com If you need more ideas, I am sure we can come up with something. David Botton edabobojr@yahoo.com wrote in message <7lgtt1$s28$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... >I was wondering how you would recommend the "young talent" develop >their Ada skills. After using Ada throughout college I took a position >in another language and am interested in developing my abilities to >possibly become a competent Ada programmer for later jobs. Any input >or recommendations would be appreciated. Thank you ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 ` edabobojr 1999-07-01 0:00 ` David Botton @ 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-07-02 0:00 ` czgrr 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen 3 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 1999-07-02 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <7lgtt1$s28$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, edabobojr@yahoo.com wrote: > In article <7lgb74$kob$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Joe Wisniewski <wisniew@acm.org> wrote: > > over-influx of "young talent" (Refer to previous posts on c.l.a. > > wrt "Looking for Jr. Ada people") > > > > general lack of engineering skills > > > > lack of OO training/experience > > > > lack of _effective_ Ada training/experience > > > I was wondering how you would recommend the "young talent" develop > their Ada skills. After using Ada throughout college I took a position > in another language and am interested in developing my abilities to > possibly become a competent Ada programmer for later jobs. Any input Really I think the best training is on-the-job training. This needs to include looking at how other Ada developers do things. Thus the best course would be to do some projects in Ada. Of course, as Joe hinted, relying on on the job training is not the most efficient course for a company. But as an engineer I think you'll learn most quickly and deeply that way. -- T.E.D. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 ` edabobojr 1999-07-01 0:00 ` David Botton 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 1999-07-02 0:00 ` czgrr 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen 3 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: czgrr @ 1999-07-02 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <7lgtt1$s28$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, edabobojr@yahoo.com wrote: > I was wondering how you would recommend the "young talent" develop > their Ada skills. After using Ada throughout college I took a position > in another language and am interested in developing my abilities to > possibly become a competent Ada programmer for later jobs. Any input > or recommendations would be appreciated. Thank you Well, I am in the opposite position right now. I have several years experience in Ada (83), but the job I am now doing will soon require some Visual C++ programming. So I am teaching myself C++, subscribing to newsgroups, asking and answering questions - this is something which we can all help you with - and *using* it. And I am teaching myself the "Visual" bit by developing the GUI for my current project in the ObjectAda GUI Builder, and at the same time, implementing the same functionality in Visual C++. So why don't you try something like that. You currently (I assume) have your "position in another language", so get yourself an Ada compiler - there are free ones about - and use your work projects to help you. If you are not allowed to for copyright or security reasons, well, it can still give you ideas. But you will need to invest some serious personal time to do this, unless your work sanctions you learning it there. This might be an option if it is "for later jobs". And *use* Ada, keep pushing, keep expanding the knowledge. All the best with your Ada developing, and remember that we are all here to help you. I would recommend that you *try* to solve things first, and post your code with specific questions, rather than asking vague, general questions which will not teach you anything if we do it all for you. Regards, czgrr -- No email, please - reply to the newsgroup. My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer. Use any suggestions at your own risk. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 ` edabobojr ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 1999-07-02 0:00 ` czgrr @ 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Laurent Guerby 3 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen @ 1999-07-02 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) edabobojr@yahoo.com wrote >I was wondering how you would recommend the "young talent" develop >their Ada skills. After using Ada throughout college I took a position >in another language and am interested in developing my abilities to >possibly become a competent Ada programmer for later jobs. Any input >or recommendations would be appreciated. Thank you Find something you want to do. Do it in Ada. A suggestion: I believe that if you did something with regards to network programming (sockets, etc) it would be something that many may benefit from. E.g. a customizable threaded server. Greetings, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen @ 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Laurent Guerby 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Laurent Guerby @ 1999-07-02 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 551 bytes --] "Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.no> writes: > Find something you want to do. Do it in Ada. > > A suggestion: > I believe that if you did something with regards to network programming > (sockets, etc) it would be something that many may benefit from. E.g. a > customizable threaded server. A threaded socket server is trivial to do with the AdaSockets package: <http://www-inf.enst.fr/ANC/> There is a windows port at: <http://stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk/packages.html#ADASOCK> Thanks to the ENST folks and Jerry van Dijk ;-) --LG ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada Skill Assessments 1999-07-01 0:00 Ada Skill Assessments Joe Wisniewski 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-07-01 0:00 ` edabobojr @ 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Pascal Obry 2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 1999-07-02 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 920 bytes --] Joe Wisniewski <wisniew@acm.org> a �crit dans le message : 7lgb74$kob$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Has there been any serious discussions of this issue as it relates > to Ada skill assessments? > > (I'll answer my own question :--) ) > > Among the last several "Ada clients" for which I have done work, > I am seeing, in general, a degradation of skilled Ada talent. Now, > upon closer analysis, the "actual" skills that I am seeing "lacking" > may or may not be due to one or more of the following: > This could be a good sign. It could means that : - Ada skill demand exceed Ada training - Ada is going more and more outside of the "safety critical" field. There the constraints for code quality is relaxed. The good news is that a lot of Ada jobs are going to be proposed... - Ada is begining to be popular and many peoples are embrassing it too fast without a long training. Just some thought. Pascal. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1999-07-02 0:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1999-07-01 0:00 Ada Skill Assessments Joe Wisniewski 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Joe Wisniewski 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-07-01 0:00 ` Joe Wisniewski 1999-07-01 0:00 ` edabobojr 1999-07-01 0:00 ` David Botton 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-07-02 0:00 ` czgrr 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Laurent Guerby 1999-07-02 0:00 ` Pascal Obry
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