GUI toolkit for Ada again

GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello again,
thank you for your comments on Ada and GUIs. As I can see there is no such 
toolkit I am looking for available at the time. Maybe I will begin to 
develop one if I have a bit more time.
The concept of the toolkit (or library) I was looking for should be like 
the one of wxWindows. wxWindows (http:://www.wxwindows.org/) is a C++ 
library using the Windows API on the Windows platform and Motif or GTK+ on 
POSIX systems.
On UNIX-like systems I would consider GTK+, Qt and the CDE GUI library as 
native libraries because programs using them fit into the GNOME, KDE or CDE 
desktop respectively. Those desktops I would consider to be the platform.
GtkAda is in my opinion good for developing GNOME applications but not to 
develop Windows applications. A Windows application has (in my opinion) to 
look and feel Windows-like.
Could you tell me how thin the GtkAda binding to GTK+ is? Would it be a 
good idea to base the GTK+ version of a multi-plattform library on GtkAda? 
Or should one create a real thin binding?

Wolfgang

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Stefan Nobis]

Wolfgang Jeltsch <jeltsch@tu-cottbus.de> writes:

> GtkAda is in my opinion good for developing GNOME applications but not to 
> develop Windows applications. A Windows application has (in my opinion) to 
> look and feel Windows-like.

Did you ever test GTK+ programs on Windows? GTK+ apps compiled on Win does
have Windows look'n'feel. Try http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/ for a
software which GUI is written with GTK+ and have a Windows look'n'feel on
Windows.

In fact the GTK+ for Windows is based on the Windows-API, not X11-libs.

-- 
Until the next mail...,
Stefan.

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello Stefan,
in finding out if GTK+ for Windows has a platform-specific look-and-feel I 
had a look at the screenshots on
    http://www.gimp.org/~tml/gimp/win32/screenshots.html.
They definitely don't look like Windows but like ordinary GTK+. That is why 
I supposed (and still suppose) that GTK+ on Windows uses the Windows API at 
a lower level - to draw lines, boxes and text. So GTK+ would be based on 
the Windows API while managing the controls itself and providing its own 
look-and-feel.
But maybe I am in error. I will try the program you mentioned.

Wolfgang

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello Stefan,
I downloaded Dev-C++ and it looks really like Windows. But on
    http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html
the author tells something about Delphi sources.
The note on
    http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=74195
talks about different code for Windows and Linux versions. So I suppose the 
Linux version uses GTK+. The Windows version obviously does not.

Wolfgang


Stefan Nobis wrote:

> [...]
> 
> Did you ever test GTK+ programs on Windows? GTK+ apps compiled on Win does
> have Windows look'n'feel. Try http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/ for
> a software which GUI is written with GTK+ and have a Windows look'n'feel
> on Windows.
> 
> In fact the GTK+ for Windows is based on the Windows-API, not X11-libs.

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[R. Srinivasan]

you may want to look at the ada source library browser developed with
GTKAda. On Windows it looks quite like windows app. There is even a
screenshot @ http://alibrowse.sourceforge.net (I have developed it further
but I have had to take a breather before picking up where I left off.)

srini
"Wolfgang Jeltsch" <jeltsch@tu-cottbus.de> wrote in message
news:9htgng$fh6ld$1@ID-77306.news.dfncis.de...
> Hello Stefan,
> I downloaded Dev-C++ and it looks really like Windows. But on
>     http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html
> the author tells something about Delphi sources.
> The note on
>     http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=74195
> talks about different code for Windows and Linux versions. So I suppose
the
> Linux version uses GTK+. The Windows version obviously does not.
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
> Stefan Nobis wrote:
>
> > [...]
> >
> > Did you ever test GTK+ programs on Windows? GTK+ apps compiled on Win
does
> > have Windows look'n'feel. Try http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/
for
> > a software which GUI is written with GTK+ and have a Windows look'n'feel
> > on Windows.
> >
> > In fact the GTK+ for Windows is based on the Windows-API, not X11-libs.

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Ok, I had a look at the screenshot. I have to say that it does not look 
like Windows at all but like an ordinary GTK+ application. There are no 
differences between this and GTK+ look on POSIX except of course for the 
title bar and the window border.
Why do so many people not care about details in GUIs? Just today I 
installed an application which was said to have "a modern Windows 
interface". The interface was in my opinion rather terrible - unusual 
looking scrollbars, non-modal dialogs where there should be modal ones, 
push button rows below the menu bar and so on, and so on.
Ok, obviously there is no such library I am looking for. I think I will 
begin to write one when I have time. The existence of wxWindows proves that 
it is possible to have a library fulfilling the requirements I have.
IMPORTANT: If someone of you is interested in participating in this project 
please tell me. 

Wolfgang


R. Srinivasan wrote:

> you may want to look at the ada source library browser developed with
> GTKAda. On Windows it looks quite like windows app. There is even a
> screenshot @ http://alibrowse.sourceforge.net (I have developed it further
> but I have had to take a breather before picking up where I left off.)
> 
> srini

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[tmoran]

> The interface was in my opinion rather terrible - unusual
> looking scrollbars, non-modal dialogs where there should be modal ones,
> push button rows below the menu bar and so on, and so on.
> Ok, obviously there is no such library I am looking for.
   I missed the start of this thread (thanks, AT&T) and am not sure
exactly what was wanted.  If you want to write Ada style programs that
run under Windows and have a Windows style interface, take a look at
CLAW at www.rrsoftware.com  There's a free intro version available
there and I think a free intro version of the associated GUI builder.
(I helped create CLAW, but not the GUI builder.)

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Gary Scott]

Hi,
There are several commercial GUI toolkits that do quite a good job of
adapting to the specific OS to achieve native "look and feel".  See

http://www.gino-graphics.com
http://www.winteracter.com

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> In article <9i0042$gfcml$1@ID-77306.news.dfncis.de>, Wolfgang Jeltsch <jeltsch@tu-cottbus.de> writes:
> 
> > Why do so many people not care about details in GUIs?
> 
> I care about the details but I think a generalized interface that
> adapts to each windowing system is not practical.
> 
> > Ok, obviously there is no such library I am looking for. I think I will
> > begin to write one when I have time. The existence of wxWindows proves that
> > it is possible to have a library fulfilling the requirements I have.
> 
> Can you give an example of a commercial Macintosh product that uses
> wxWindows (if that tool proves your thesis) ?


-- 

Gary Scott
mailto:scottg@flash.net

mailto:webmaster@fortranlib.com
http://www.fortranlib.com

Support the GNU Fortran G95 Project:  http://g95.sourceforge.net

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <9i0042$gfcml$1@ID-77306.news.dfncis.de>, Wolfgang Jeltsch <jeltsch@tu-cottbus.de> writes:

> Why do so many people not care about details in GUIs?

I care about the details but I think a generalized interface that
adapts to each windowing system is not practical.

> Ok, obviously there is no such library I am looking for. I think I will 
> begin to write one when I have time. The existence of wxWindows proves that 
> it is possible to have a library fulfilling the requirements I have.

Can you give an example of a commercial Macintosh product that uses
wxWindows (if that tool proves your thesis) ?

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Emmanuel Briot]

Wolfgang Jeltsch <jeltsch@tu-cottbus.de> writes:

> Why do so many people not care about details in GUIs? Just today I 
> installed an application which was said to have "a modern Windows 
> interface". The interface was in my opinion rather terrible - unusual 
> looking scrollbars, non-modal dialogs where there should be modal ones, 
> push button rows below the menu bar and so on, and so on.

Except maybe for the scrollbars, none of what you describe above (modal
dialogs, push buttons, ...) has anything to do with the GUI toolkit that
is used. The GUI toolkit can only help the visual drawing (like how the
border of buttons, or the radio buttons,... are displayed), not what you
put in your window.

The application you describe above might have been written with Win32, for all
we know, and still have that look you don't like.

There's only so much a GUI toolkit can help you with, unless it becomes so
restrictive that you can't do anything with it in the end.

Also don't tell us that the Windows look-and-feel is what Microsoft does, since
they keep (rightly) changing it. If you use their new menu system (with hidden
items) on windows98, it will look strange. But it is still considered as a
windows look-and-feel.


> Ok, obviously there is no such library I am looking for. I think I will 
> begin to write one when I have time. The existence of wxWindows proves that 
> it is possible to have a library fulfilling the requirements I have.
> IMPORTANT: If someone of you is interested in participating in this project 
> please tell me.

This is a huge project, especially if you want to do it portable at the same time.
Why not provide a binding to wxWindows instead. Actually, I even think there is
one somewhere around, but I might be mistaken. 

Emmanuel

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <3B43CC4E.887F3AE6@flash.net>, Gary Scott <scottg@flash.net> writes:
> Hi,
> There are several commercial GUI toolkits that do quite a good job of
> adapting to the specific OS to achieve native "look and feel".  See
> 
> http://www.gino-graphics.com
> http://www.winteracter.com

Thanks for the pointers.  Those both seem to be Fortran-centric.
Not that such is bad, but I was wondering if it is because that
happens to be the area for which you were familiar with products
or if there is some natural tendency of Fortran programmers to
provide more of a market for this sort of product.

Both products seem to handle Microsoft and Motif.  Since Motif
was designed to look like (one generation of) Microsoft, that
may be an easier set of two to cover.  It would be interesting
to see if there is anything that covers both of those plus OS/2,
MacOS and MacOS X (NEXT-derivative).

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

> I missed the start of this thread (thanks, AT&T) and am not sure exactly
> what was wanted.  If you want to write Ada style programs that run under
> Windows and have a Windows style interface, take a look at CLAW at
> www.rrsoftware.com  There's a free intro version available there and I
> think a free intro version of the associated GUI builder. (I helped
> create CLAW, but not the GUI builder.)

Hello,
I am citing from my earlier postings:
I want "a multi-platform GUI toolkit for Ada [...] which uses native 
look-and-feel by using native GUI libraries". "The concept of the toolkit 
(or library) [...] should be like the one of wxWindows. wxWindows 
(http:://www.wxwindows.org/) is a C++ library using the Windows API on the 
Windows platform and Motif or GTK+ on POSIX systems.

Wolfgang

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello!
> [...] 
> Can you give an example of a commercial Macintosh product that uses
> wxWindows (if that tool proves your thesis) ?

I cannot, because I have no knowledge about the "Macintosh world".

Wolfgang

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello!
> [...]
> Except maybe for the scrollbars, none of what you describe above (modal
> dialogs, push buttons, ...) has anything to do with the GUI toolkit that
> is used. The GUI toolkit can only help the visual drawing (like how the
> border of buttons, or the radio buttons,... are displayed), not what you
> put in your window.

Yes, you are right. This paragraph about button rows and non-modal dialogs 
was rather born out of my dissatisfaction with GUI look-and-feels in 
general, not just those provided by specific libraries.

> [...]
> This is a huge project, especially if you want to do it portable at the
> same time. Why not provide a binding to wxWindows instead. Actually, I
> even think there is one somewhere around, but I might be mistaken.

Well, wxWindows is written in C++ and there are no standard ways for 
interfacing with C++.

> Emmanuel

Wolfgang

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Gary Scott]

Hi,

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> In article <3B43CC4E.887F3AE6@flash.net>, Gary Scott <scottg@flash.net> writes:
> > Hi,
> > There are several commercial GUI toolkits that do quite a good job of
> > adapting to the specific OS to achieve native "look and feel".  See
> >
> > http://www.gino-graphics.com
> > http://www.winteracter.com
> 
> Thanks for the pointers.  Those both seem to be Fortran-centric.
> Not that such is bad, but I was wondering if it is because that
> happens to be the area for which you were familiar with products
> or if there is some natural tendency of Fortran programmers to
> provide more of a market for this sort of product.

There is also a C-based API for GINO.  Either API should be quite easy
to call from Ada.  Link compatibility with MS VC is all that is required
(there may be other C compilers supported as well).  I merely
recommended these because they are both very good at what they do (not
perfect, obviously, but all the basic stuff is there and extremely easy
to use).  Fortran programmers do tend to value portability, but have not
historically worried that much about user interface.  Many of those that
do worry about user interface, want that to be portable as well.  These
products are tailored to the need.  I build a lot of small tools and had
began to find that engineers were more and more reluctant to use my
tools because they didn't have a GUI (fresh out of college, didn't know
what a command line was).  GINO makes it extremely easy to add a GUI to
plain old console apps (did I say extremely easy?).

> 
> Both products seem to handle Microsoft and Motif.  Since Motif
> was designed to look like (one generation of) Microsoft, that
> may be an easier set of two to cover.  It would be interesting
> to see if there is anything that covers both of those plus OS/2,
> MacOS and MacOS X (NEXT-derivative).


-- 

Gary Scott
mailto:scottg@flash.net

mailto:webmaster@fortranlib.com
http://www.fortranlib.com

Support the GNU Fortran G95 Project:  http://g95.sourceforge.net

RE: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.]

From: Bob Leif
To: Gart Scott, Larry Kilgallen et al.

At SIGAda 2001, I will chair a workshop, "Creating a Symbiotic Relationship
Between XML and Ada". One of the main subjects of this workshop will be,
what is the status and what needs to be done to create a portable GUI based
on XML and Ada?

I might note that a very significant part of a simple, user-friendly, small,
commercial operating system could be based on an XML/Ada GUI and the
following Ada components: a real-time kernel, Ada-POSIX, and an Ada 95 based
object-relational database. The addition of a rationally designed Ada/XML
Office suite would be a life-saver application. I will leave the term,
killer application, to the present commercial manufacturers' products, which
are very good at increasing stress.


-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of Gary Scott
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:04 PM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again


Hi,

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>
> In article <3B43CC4E.887F3AE6@flash.net>, Gary Scott <scottg@flash.net>
writes:
> > Hi,
> > There are several commercial GUI toolkits that do quite a good job of
> > adapting to the specific OS to achieve native "look and feel".  See
> >
> > http://www.gino-graphics.com
> > http://www.winteracter.com
>
> Thanks for the pointers.  Those both seem to be Fortran-centric.
> Not that such is bad, but I was wondering if it is because that
> happens to be the area for which you were familiar with products
> or if there is some natural tendency of Fortran programmers to
> provide more of a market for this sort of product.

There is also a C-based API for GINO.  Either API should be quite easy
to call from Ada.  Link compatibility with MS VC is all that is required
(there may be other C compilers supported as well).  I merely
recommended these because they are both very good at what they do (not
perfect, obviously, but all the basic stuff is there and extremely easy
to use).  Fortran programmers do tend to value portability, but have not
historically worried that much about user interface.  Many of those that
do worry about user interface, want that to be portable as well.  These
products are tailored to the need.  I build a lot of small tools and had
began to find that engineers were more and more reluctant to use my
tools because they didn't have a GUI (fresh out of college, didn't know
what a command line was).  GINO makes it extremely easy to add a GUI to
plain old console apps (did I say extremely easy?).

>
> Both products seem to handle Microsoft and Motif.  Since Motif
> was designed to look like (one generation of) Microsoft, that
> may be an easier set of two to cover.  It would be interesting
> to see if there is anything that covers both of those plus OS/2,
> MacOS and MacOS X (NEXT-derivative).


--

Gary Scott
mailto:scottg@flash.net

mailto:webmaster@fortranlib.com
http://www.fortranlib.com

Support the GNU Fortran G95 Project:  http://g95.sourceforge.net

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[McDoobie]

Has anyone considered using Java bytecode and compiling it using the Ada95
JGnat compiler?

This would solve the cross-platform problem quite easily.

I could not throw my support behind writing a Windows only IDE/GUI 
toolchain, as I cant afford to shell out $100 for Blue Screen'doze. ;->

I am, and always will be a FreeBSD/Linux developer.  The thought of yet 
another Doze only IDE is something I find to be appaling. If people want a 
doze only GUI, there are plenty of tool vendors out there that would be glad
to sell them one.  Being a poor college student, I just dont have the money
or the patience to deal with the costs incurred in using MS software.

Anyways...my .02 worth.

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

RE: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[McDoobie]

In article <mailman.994462029.11996.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, "Robert C.
Leif, Ph.D." <rleif@rleif.com> wrote:

> From: Bob Leif To: Gart Scott, Larry Kilgallen et al.
> 
> At SIGAda 2001, I will chair a workshop, "Creating a Symbiotic
> Relationship Between XML and Ada". One of the main subjects of this
> workshop will be, what is the status and what needs to be done to create
> a portable GUI based on XML and Ada?
> 
> I might note that a very significant part of a simple, user-friendly,
> small, commercial operating system could be based on an XML/Ada GUI and
> the following Ada components: a real-time kernel, Ada-POSIX, and an Ada
> 95 based object-relational database. The addition of a rationally
> designed Ada/XML Office suite would be a life-saver application. I will
> leave the term, killer application, to the present commercial
> manufacturers' products, which are very good at increasing stress.
> 
> 

Have we considered investigating Open Office at www.openoffice.org for
just such an endeavor? It's cross platform, Open Source, and handles 
Microsoft Office data formats.
I've looked at it, and it certainly appears that it fits right in with the 
description you've given above. It also appears that good chunks of it
could stand a good sound rewrite in Ada code. It's pretty jumbled right now.

Your opinion?

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <tNO37.9590$JN6.1832185@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>, "McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> writes:
> Has anyone considered using Java bytecode and compiling it using the Ada95
> JGnat compiler?
> 
> This would solve the cross-platform problem quite easily.

That depends entirely on what you consider "the cross-platform problem".

I consider "the cross-platform problem" to be the issue of providing a
look and feel that is in keeping with that for the platform in question.
This is very different on Macintosh, Motif, OS/2 and Windows (all of
them).

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[Gary Lisyansky]

"McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> wrote in message
news:tNO37.9590$JN6.1832185@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
> Has anyone considered using Java bytecode and compiling it using the Ada95
> JGnat compiler?
>
> This would solve the cross-platform problem quite easily.
>
Well, not an absolute solution, but I do it daily. GUI using Swing is very
nice and much more powerful than native ones.

Gary

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[James Rogers]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> In article <tNO37.9590$JN6.1832185@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>, "McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> writes:
> > Has anyone considered using Java bytecode and compiling it using the Ada95
> > JGnat compiler?
> >
> > This would solve the cross-platform problem quite easily.
> 
> That depends entirely on what you consider "the cross-platform problem".
> 
> I consider "the cross-platform problem" to be the issue of providing a
> look and feel that is in keeping with that for the platform in question.
> This is very different on Macintosh, Motif, OS/2 and Windows (all of
> them).

There is JGrasp from Auburn University. It provides an IDE for
Ada, C, C++, Java, and VHDL. JGrasp is written in Java, so it is as
portable as Java. JGrasp allows the user to select the look and feel
he or she wants. No matter which platform you are using, JGrasp lets
you choose the Motif, Windoze, or Java look and feel.

I know this leaves out Macintosh. Unfortunately Macintosh is not as
fully supported by the Java Swing GUI components as are other
platforms. This does not mean JGrasp will not run under Macintosh.
It only means you cannot get the native look and feel of a
Macintosh using JGrasp.

JGrasp comes pre-configured to know how to call the GNAT compiler.
It can be easily configured to call any compiler's command line
interface.

My son had to learn some C++ in his high school (as a first 
programming language). I downloaded the free version of the Borland
C++ compiler. It came with no IDE. I configured JGrasp to call the
Borland command line interface. Suddenly I had a C++ compiler and
a workable IDE.

The URL for JGrasp is: www.eng.auburn.edu/grasp

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[Gary Lisyansky]

"James Rogers" <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B504975.7B63C6FB@worldnet.att.net...
> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> >
> I know this leaves out Macintosh. Unfortunately Macintosh is not as
> fully supported by the Java Swing GUI components as are other
> platforms. This does not mean JGrasp will not run under Macintosh.
> It only means you cannot get the native look and feel of a
> Macintosh using JGrasp.
>
> Jim Rogers
> Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Macintosh is comparatively difficult to support. Apple prohibits using the
Mac L&F on non- Apple platforms, and, besides, Mac menu is not a part of a
window (like in Motif or OLIT), but, instead, is a part of the desktop and
requires to be designed for use with MacOS because of presence of mandated
system commands.

Gary

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello,

> Has anyone considered using Java bytecode and compiling it using the Ada95
> JGnat compiler?
> This would solve the cross-platform problem quite easily.

This would also produce software which is so slow that it is in my opinion 
not usable. (Of course this depends on the VM you use.)
At the moment I develop a Java-Swing application for my university. I use 
the Java 2(TM) SDK, version 1.3.1. If I see how slow this application runs 
I just wonder why anybody uses Java at all.

> [...]

Wolfgang

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello,

> [...]
> JGrasp allows the user to select the look and feel he or she wants. No
> matter which platform you are using, JGrasp lets you choose the Motif,
> Windoze, or Java look and feel.

The problem is that Swing does not let a "native" library handle the GUI 
components. Instead it tries to imitate the choosen GUI style. I could 
image that this is not totally successful all the time.
And if the native library is changed to provide a different look-and-feel 
every application will get this new one - except all those Java 
applications which will look different then.

Wolfgang

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[James Rogers]

Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> > [...]
> > JGrasp allows the user to select the look and feel he or she wants. No
> > matter which platform you are using, JGrasp lets you choose the Motif,
> > Windoze, or Java look and feel.
> 
> The problem is that Swing does not let a "native" library handle the GUI
> components. Instead it tries to imitate the choosen GUI style. I could
> image that this is not totally successful all the time.
> And if the native library is changed to provide a different look-and-feel
> every application will get this new one - except all those Java
> applications which will look different then.
> 

Every application will get a new look and feel only if they are
compiled with shared or dynamically linked libraries. Those compiled
with statically linked libraries will not be updated.

Historically, changing shared libraries does not always work as
cleanly as one would hope. The reason is that sometimes the changes
include changes in the interfaces to the subprograms in the
libraries. If such a change was made to the "native" libraries then
the existing applications could stop working altogether. 

For practical purposes it would be very difficult to change the
behavior of existing "native" libraries. There is too much user
inertia.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[McDoobie]

In article <9iq1si$k8abb$1@ID-77306.news.dfncis.de>, Wolfgang Jeltsch
<jeltsch@tu-cottbus.de> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
>> Has anyone considered using Java bytecode and compiling it using the
>> Ada95 JGnat compiler? This would solve the cross-platform problem quite
>> easily.
> 
> This would also produce software which is so slow that it is in my
> opinion  not usable. (Of course this depends on the VM you use.) At the
> moment I develop a Java-Swing application for my university. I use  the
> Java 2(TM) SDK, version 1.3.1. If I see how slow this application runs 
> I just wonder why anybody uses Java at all.
> 
>> [...]
> 
> Wolfgang

I've been using the IBM JDK which really runs fast (relative to natively 
compiled proggies).  Java proggies can be relatively speedy, depending 
on how thier written. And how good (or crappy) the VM is. 
I wouldn't use the Sun VM if my life depended on it. IBM, however, seems 
to have actually done a halfway decent job with thier VM.  Check it out
sometime.

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

RE: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.]

From: Bob Leif
To: McDoobie et al.

I looked at a book on the spreadsheet. It appeared that the spreadsheet
still had the same bad design as Excel. The columns and rows could not be
renamed. Presently, our corporate books are kept on two computers, which
share the same keyboard and printer. We continue to use Lotus IMPROV, which
is the only spreadsheet I know off that has a reasonable design.
Unfortunately, IMPROV itself had the gross deficiency that it can not run on
a version of Windows latter than 3.1. I would be ecstatic to replace IMPROV;
but, not with an inferior product. I should note that Excel xp does run in
an XML mode. A spreadsheet written in Ada as an XML application that was
based on software engineering principles including the use of decimal
numbers, particularly for money, would be a revolutionary product. An Ada J
code compiler would provide an excellent macro language.

I just tried to make Word xp behave like FrameMaker. Needless to say, the
artificial stupidity engine did its thing. The equivalent of FrameMaker in
XML based on Ada would be a great improvement. The spreadsheet would then be
the tables in the text editor.

As far as the database, ask Lockheed-Martin, it has already been written. If
any of you really wish to raise your blood pressure, please look at
http://plan.cancer.gov/ and look at the section Informatics and Information
Flow http://plan.cancer.gov/infbuilding.htm. Then think of what an Ada based
relational-object database could do for clinical trials and cancer research
in general. We taxpayers have already funded this tool. Why is medical and
other necessary research denied access to it?

An office product would be an excellent subject to discuss at the SIGAda
2001 Workshop on �Creating a Symbiotic Relationship Between XML and Ada�.

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of McDoobie
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 8:19 PM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: RE: GUI toolkit for Ada again


In article <mailman.994462029.11996.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, "Robert C.
Leif, Ph.D." <rleif@rleif.com> wrote:

> From: Bob Leif To: Gart Scott, Larry Kilgallen et al.
>
> At SIGAda 2001, I will chair a workshop, "Creating a Symbiotic
> Relationship Between XML and Ada". One of the main subjects of this
> workshop will be, what is the status and what needs to be done to create
> a portable GUI based on XML and Ada?
>
> I might note that a very significant part of a simple, user-friendly,
> small, commercial operating system could be based on an XML/Ada GUI and
> the following Ada components: a real-time kernel, Ada-POSIX, and an Ada
> 95 based object-relational database. The addition of a rationally
> designed Ada/XML Office suite would be a life-saver application. I will
> leave the term, killer application, to the present commercial
> manufacturers' products, which are very good at increasing stress.
>
>

Have we considered investigating Open Office at www.openoffice.org for
just such an endeavor? It's cross platform, Open Source, and handles
Microsoft Office data formats.
I've looked at it, and it certainly appears that it fits right in with the
description you've given above. It also appears that good chunks of it
could stand a good sound rewrite in Ada code. It's pretty jumbled right now.

Your opinion?

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Marin David Condic]

I've got a question about this: It looks like this is set up by Sun to get a
product created (at little to no cost to them) that helps them compete with
Microsoft. The availability of OpenOffice creates a tangible benefit to
them - translation: $$$. How is it I benefit as a contributor? Or is this
just a thinly disguised attempt by Sun to get me to work for them for free?

I'm guessing at the moment, but is all this stuff written in C? C++? Java? I
quote from the web page:

"We have made these binary versions of OpenOffice.org available for testing
purposes only! We consider them pre-alpha code, and they are not stable or
complete enough for daily usage. They might crash on startup. They might
delete all your files and cause your computer to burst into flames. We put
them here for you to try out and report the bugs you find. It's guaranteed
that you'll find bugs, lots of them and we want to hear about 'em."

Very strong confidence building going on here, eh? :-)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> wrote in message
news:KSO37.9609$JN6.1835931@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
>
> Have we considered investigating Open Office at www.openoffice.org for
> just such an endeavor? It's cross platform, Open Source, and handles
> Microsoft Office data formats.
> I've looked at it, and it certainly appears that it fits right in with the
> description you've given above. It also appears that good chunks of it
> could stand a good sound rewrite in Ada code. It's pretty jumbled right
now.
>

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again

[Harris]

"Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> wrote in message news:<9ivhio$aia$1@nh.pace.co.uk>...
> I've got a question about this: It looks like this is set up by Sun to get a
> product created (at little to no cost to them) that helps them compete with
> Microsoft. The availability of OpenOffice creates a tangible benefit to
> them - translation: $$$. How is it I benefit as a contributor? Or is this
> just a thinly disguised attempt by Sun to get me to work for them for free?

Basically, yes.  If you're an open-source zealot, an open-source
competitor to MS Office, might be incentive enough.  Otherwise... I
guess Sun has nothing to offer you :)

> I'm guessing at the moment, but is all this stuff written in C? C++? Java? I
> quote from the web page:

Its written in C++ as it is.  If you have the bandwidth you can always
download the source for yourself and check it out.
 
> "We have made these binary versions of OpenOffice.org available for testing
> purposes only! We consider them pre-alpha code, and they are not stable or
> complete enough for daily usage. They might crash on startup. They might
> delete all your files and cause your computer to burst into flames. We put
> them here for you to try out and report the bugs you find. It's guaranteed
> that you'll find bugs, lots of them and we want to hear about 'em."
> 
> Very strong confidence building going on here, eh? :-)

Isn't that pretty much the point of making a product that is known as
"alpha" quality or less in the public domain?  To try and find bugs? 
OpenOffice is the next-generation incarnation of StarOffice(with the
sub-licensed parts pulled out)... if you want to see what Sun
considers "final" quality software, checkout the latest release of
StarOffice from sun.com.  Then again, the latest release might be the
same as when Sun bought StarOffice, I'm almost sure they only reason
they bought it was so they could open source it and try to build a
"free" competitor to MS Office.

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello,

> [...]
> I've been using the IBM JDK which really runs fast (relative to natively
> compiled proggies).  Java proggies can be relatively speedy, depending
> on how thier written. And how good (or crappy) the VM is.
> I wouldn't use the Sun VM if my life depended on it. IBM, however, seems
> to have actually done a halfway decent job with thier VM.  Check it out
> sometime.

Is the IBM VM free of charge? And if not, how much does it cost?

> McDoobie
> chris@dont.spam.me

Wolfgang

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[Wolfgang Jeltsch]

Hello,

> [...]
> Every application will get a new look and feel only if they are
> compiled with shared or dynamically linked libraries. Those compiled
> with statically linked libraries will not be updated.

Yes, you are right.

> Historically, changing shared libraries does not always work as
> cleanly as one would hope. The reason is that sometimes the changes
> include changes in the interfaces to the subprograms in the
> libraries. If such a change was made to the "native" libraries then
> the existing applications could stop working altogether.

Ok, new versions would have to be strictly interface compatible with the 
older ones.

> For practical purposes it would be very difficult to change the
> behavior of existing "native" libraries. There is too much user
> inertia.

The main area I thought of when talking about changes of implementation and 
behaviour was Microsoft Windows. There you have in fact such changes with 
every new version of the OS. The interfaces are more or less compatible.

> Jim Rogers
> Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Wolfgang Jeltsch
Cottbus, Germany

Re: GUI toolkit for Ada again (Java with jgnat?)

[McDoobie]

In article <9j70v3$m9mub$1@ID-77306.news.dfncis.de>, Wolfgang Jeltsch
<jeltsch@tu-cottbus.de> wrote:

>> 
> Is the IBM VM free of charge? And if not, how much does it cost?
> 
> 
> Wolfgang

You can download and use it for free, yes. Not sure what the exact licensing 
terms are though(never bothered to look).

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me