Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

[Bob Kitzberger]

Fred Ross-Perry (fredrp@tif527.ed.ray.com) wrote:
: : Curtis May (curtism@netcom.com) wrote:
: : > Hello All,

: : > I am interested in information regarding the size of the safety-critical
: : > software market, particulary in the United States (although global 
: : > information would be helpful as well). Any relevant information along 
: : > with the source of the information would be highly appreciated.
[snip]
: But, there would be a market for tools and methodologies that support the
: creation of safety-critical software.  Perhaps this is what was meant.

A good chunk of the Ada tool market is for safety-critical software,
and so are parts of the realtime market (trusted kernels and such,
e.g. DO-178B certification).

You may want to ask over on comp.realtime and comp.lang.ada.  As
a matter of fact, I'll add them to the distribution list on this
note...

	.Bob.

--
Bob Kitzberger				Rational Software Corporation
     "Though the boys throw stones at frogs in sport, yet the frogs 
       do not die in sport but in earnest."      - Plutarch

Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

[COUGER GORDON]

In article <34q3qv$66p@rational.rational.com>,
Bob Kitzberger <rlk@rational.com> wrote:
>Fred Ross-Perry (fredrp@tif527.ed.ray.com) wrote:
>: : Curtis May (curtism@netcom.com) wrote:
>: : > Hello All,
>
>: : > I am interested in information regarding the size of the safety-critical
>: : > software market, particulary in the United States (although global 
>: : > information would be helpful as well). Any relevant information along 
>: : > with the source of the information would be highly appreciated.

The automotive, trucking, farm and industrial equepment are the biggest
users of computer cpu's and they all are safety-critical. Most of the code
is written by indivugals and I don't know of any software being marketed.
It would be a good place for real time kernels but the rest of the software
is pretty device specfic. I think.
Gordon

Gordon Couger senior software specialist
   Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering. 114 AG Hall Stillwater, OK 74075
   gcouger@olesun.agen.okstate.edu 405 744 9763 day 625-2855 evenings

Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

[Michael Feldman]

In article <CvxMzB.vq@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>,
COUGER GORDON <gcouger@olesun.okstate.edu> wrote:

>The automotive, trucking, farm and industrial equepment are the biggest
>users of computer cpu's and they all are safety-critical. Most of the code
>is written by indivugals and I don't know of any software being marketed.
>It would be a good place for real time kernels but the rest of the software
>is pretty device specfic. I think.

A year or so ago, someone I know in the Ada community mentioned that he
had been to an embedded systems conference and heard someone mention, 
during a session, that some significant amount of automotive code in
his company had been written in Ada. According to my source, there was
something of a flap over this, and the speaker was nearly fired for letting
the cat out of the bag about his employer's use of Ada.

Can anyone confirm or refute?

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman -  chair, SIGAda Education Working Group
Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University -  Washington, DC 20052 USA
202-994-5253 (voice) - 202-994-0227 (fax) - mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)
"Pork is all that stuff the government gives the other guys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

[Dan Trump]

In article <CvxMzB.vq@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu (COUGER GORDON) writes:
> In article <34q3qv$66p@rational.rational.com>,
> Bob Kitzberger <rlk@rational.com> wrote:
> >Fred Ross-Perry (fredrp@tif527.ed.ray.com) wrote:
> >: : Curtis May (curtism@netcom.com) wrote:
> >: : > Hello All,
> >
> >: : > I am interested in information regarding the size of the safety-critical
> >: : > software market, particulary in the United States (although global 
> >: : > information would be helpful as well). Any relevant information along 
> >: : > with the source of the information would be highly appreciated.
> 
> The automotive, trucking, farm and industrial equepment are the biggest
> users of computer cpu's and they all are safety-critical. Most of the code
> is written by indivugals and I don't know of any software being marketed.
> It would be a good place for real time kernels but the rest of the software
> is pretty device specfic. I think.
> Gordon

I don't know about farm or industrial equipment, but most every automotive
and trucking safety-critical system to which we, Delco Electronics,
contribute (engine controllers, anti-lock brake controllers, transmission 
controllers, etc) falls into one of two catagories.

One approach is to produce the entire system as a single integrated unit.
That means that the automotive manufacturer specifies the hardware and 
software components of the systems and ultimately gets a working system
from the parts manufacturer which they then install in the car/truck.

The other approach is to provide the hardware part of the system and the
auto/truck manufacturer then does the software in-house. 

The fact that the software is safety-critical leads, I believe, to a concern
about legal liability on the part of the automotive/truck manufacturer. For
that reason, the manufacturers are *extremely* sensitive about how well the
software works. Another issue is that of the software frequently being the
key to a competitive advantage. General Motors seems to prefer to keep the
expertise for such systems in-house, rather than relying on some other 
company for their future survival. 

Whatever the reason or reasons, the automotive manufacturer maintains tight 
control over the software. I don't know of a single case where just the 
software for a safety-critical controller has been contracted to an outside 
vendor. It may have happened, but there doesn't seem to be much of a market 
for safety critical software by itself in this part of the industry. 

Please note that this is an observation from a lowly working grunt at the
bottom of the organization. I don't pretend to speak with any authority
for my employer (Delco Electronics) or for DE's owners (General Motors).
Just my $0.02.   

> 
> Gordon Couger senior software specialist
>    Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering. 114 AG Hall Stillwater, OK 74075
>    gcouger@olesun.agen.okstate.edu 405 744 9763 day 625-2855 evenings
> 












-- 
Dan Trump  V: (317) 451-0503  GM: 8-322-0503   c23dlt1@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com 
Delco Electronics Corp            (* Software Engineer - Not a DE spokesman *) 
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert, within five
years there would be a shortage of sand" - Milton Friedman

Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

[Thomas Hood 913-4501]

In article <34vg1i$e2v@felix.seas.gwu.edu>, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
|> In article <CvxMzB.vq@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>,
|> COUGER GORDON <gcouger@olesun.okstate.edu> wrote:
|> 
|> >The automotive, trucking, farm and industrial equepment are the biggest
|> >users of computer cpu's and they all are safety-critical. Most of the code
|> >is written by indivugals and I don't know of any software being marketed.
|> >It would be a good place for real time kernels but the rest of the software
|> >is pretty device specfic. I think.
|> 
|> A year or so ago, someone I know in the Ada community mentioned that he
|> had been to an embedded systems conference and heard someone mention, 
|> during a session, that some significant amount of automotive code in
|> his company had been written in Ada. According to my source, there was
|> something of a flap over this, and the speaker was nearly fired for letting
|> the cat out of the bag about his employer's use of Ada.

Well I got reamed for indicating the potential use of Ada 9X on SBIS here
not too long ago (which I hereby deny any knowledge of ;-}, and we are
supposed to be an Ada shop...

|> 
|> Can anyone confirm or refute?
|> 
|> Mike Feldman
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Michael B. Feldman -  chair, SIGAda Education Working Group
|> Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
|> The George Washington University -  Washington, DC 20052 USA
|> 202-994-5253 (voice) - 202-994-0227 (fax) - mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)
|> "Pork is all that stuff the government gives the other guys."
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 

Thomas Hood
hoodt@lfs.loral.com
-- Ada grunt since 1985
-- Member Team Ada since 1994
-- Member Team Human since 1965
--
-- My opinions are not those of my employers, and if they were I'd probably
-- reject them out of hand and form new ones.

Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

[Dave Davis]

Every airplane and almost every car should be counted. Also, some fraction of 
all PCs because of their ubiquity and use in non-business areas. Try ACM 
papers for hard numbers. Possibly the GSA has a paper. This is a good question 
for the Library of Congress too, they will assist.

Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

[jensen]

Do you want to estimate the potential market size in the sense of
who would like to have safety-critical computing, or in the sense
of who is willing to pay anything for it?

Doug

Re: Safety-Critical Market -Size?

[Joseph Skinner]

In article <35au4v$koc@www.interramp.com> Dave Davis <Dave@.interramp.com> writes:
>
>Every airplane and almost every car should be counted. Also, some fraction of 
>all PCs because of their ubiquity and use in non-business areas. Try ACM 
>papers for hard numbers. Possibly the GSA has a paper. This is a good question 
>for the Library of Congress too, they will assist.
>

Is there a bug in netnews or chameleon that causes it to add ^M to the
end of lines or is this just a setup problem.

I'm curious as this seems to be a common thing that is present with
stuff posted using this software.

Joe.

--
===============================================================================
Joseph Skinner                      | Invercargill
usenet: joe@jsnode.equinox.gen.nz   | New Zealand

There is no such thing as a wizard who minds his own business
                          - Berengis the Black
                            Court Mage to the Earl Caeline