* Green Hills Ada library question @ 1998-09-14 0:00 dennison 1998-09-14 0:00 ` Tucker Taft 1998-09-15 0:00 ` bob 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dennison @ 1998-09-14 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) I'm trying to do an initial build of an Ada system we have here using the Green Hills AdaMulti environment on WindowsNT. Our system currently has 371 source files scattered over 42 different directories. Green Hills tech support claims their system has no automatic build process, and I will have to go into their IDE and *manually* add all 371 files to a build file. That file will also have to be *manually* maintained. (Can you say "error prone"?). They do have an "adareg" command, but no "compile obsolete adareg'ed units" command. They have the ability to compile obsolete units that are listed in the build file, but no "put these units in the build file" command. I have more than a little trouble believing all this, as it would be the only Ada compiler I have ever worked with (out of 8) that lacks some way to automaticaly build and maintain a system. Can someone else who has worked with Green Hills tell me how this is done? -- T.E.D. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question 1998-09-14 0:00 Green Hills Ada library question dennison @ 1998-09-14 0:00 ` Tucker Taft 1998-09-15 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-15 0:00 ` bob 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Tucker Taft @ 1998-09-14 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) dennison@telepath.com wrote: : I'm trying to do an initial build of an Ada system we have here using the : Green Hills AdaMulti environment on WindowsNT. Our system currently has 371 : source files scattered over 42 different directories. : Green Hills tech support claims their system has no automatic build process, : and I will have to go into their IDE and *manually* add all 371 files to a : build file. That file will also have to be *manually* maintained. (Can you : say "error prone"?). Is the feature that is missing a directory-oriented build, as opposed to a file-oriented build? It is a little unclear what you mean by "manual" add/maintain. Presumably you will "manually" need to identify the directories of interest in any system. : ... : T.E.D. -- -Tucker Taft stt@inmet.com http://www.inmet.com/~stt/ Intermetrics, Inc. Burlington, MA USA ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question 1998-09-14 0:00 ` Tucker Taft @ 1998-09-15 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-29 0:00 ` Victor Giddings 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: dennison @ 1998-09-15 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <EzABB4.9Bt.0.-s@inmet.camb.inmet.com>, stt@houdini.camb.inmet.com (Tucker Taft) wrote: > dennison@telepath.com wrote: > > : Green Hills tech support claims their system has no automatic build process, > : and I will have to go into their IDE and *manually* add all 371 files to a > : build file. That file will also have to be *manually* maintained. (Can you > : say "error prone"?). > > Is the feature that is missing a directory-oriented build, > as opposed to a file-oriented build? It is a little unclear > what you mean by "manual" add/maintain. Presumably you will > "manually" need to identify the directories of interest in any system. Yes, you could call it that. I have no problem listing directories. I just don't want to have to list all 371 files! Every other compiler system I have worked with had one command, or more typically a combination of two, that could be used to compile an entire system from scratch without having to type in every unit or source file. For Aonix it would be "adareg -all" followed by "adamake". For gnat I believe one "gnatmake" does the trick (assuming everything is named properly). On large projects maintaining an Ada library by manual processes is not acceptable. With an error here and there it quickly becomes a mess. An automatic system build process, particularly something that can be run batch, is required. With the tools that I have with AdaMulti, I can't do it. It looks like I have to do one of two things: o Use "adareg -all" to register all files with the library. Then do an "adaopts -l -s" to list every file it found. Then invoke the compiler once on *each* source file listed. o Start up the GUI and create a new "build file". Then manually add each and every file with the mouse. Right now for us that amounts to 371 source files in 42 directories (but this is just our prototype!). Then invoke the AdaMulti builder. Neither activity sounds like much fun to do once, let alone once a day. If anyone out there disagrees, contact me. We may just have an opening for you. Of course you'd have to sign a carpel-tunnel waiver. :-) Our only recourse seems to be to use the TCL that came with the AdaMulti to write a script to perform the manually intensive part for us. I'm not afraid to do that, just shocked that I have to. I must have missed something. -- T.E.D. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question 1998-09-15 0:00 ` dennison @ 1998-09-29 0:00 ` Victor Giddings 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dewar 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Victor Giddings @ 1998-09-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <6tlrfh$udi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dennison@telepath.com wrote: > In article <EzABB4.9Bt.0.-s@inmet.camb.inmet.com>, > stt@houdini.camb.inmet.com (Tucker Taft) wrote: > > dennison@telepath.com wrote: > > > > : Green Hills tech support claims their system has no automatic build process, > > : and I will have to go into their IDE and *manually* add all 371 files to a > > : build file. That file will also have to be *manually* maintained. (Can you > > : say "error prone"?). > > > > Is the feature that is missing a directory-oriented build, > > as opposed to a file-oriented build? It is a little unclear > > what you mean by "manual" add/maintain. Presumably you will > > "manually" need to identify the directories of interest in any system. > > Yes, you could call it that. I have no problem listing directories. I just > don't want to have to list all 371 files! > > Every other compiler system I have worked with had one command, or more > typically a combination of two, that could be used to compile an entire > system from scratch without having to type in every unit or source file. For > Aonix it would be "adareg -all" followed by "adamake". For gnat I believe one > "gnatmake" does the trick (assuming everything is named properly). > > On large projects maintaining an Ada library by manual processes is not > acceptable. With an error here and there it quickly becomes a mess. An > automatic system build process, particularly something that can be run batch, > is required. > > With the tools that I have with AdaMulti, I can't do it. It looks like I have > to do one of two things: > > o Use "adareg -all" to register all files with the library. Then do an > "adaopts -l -s" to list every file it found. Then invoke the compiler once on > *each* source file listed. > > o Start up the GUI and create a new "build file". Then manually add each and > every file with the mouse. Right now for us that amounts to 371 source files > in 42 directories (but this is just our prototype!). Then invoke the AdaMulti > builder. BTW, the GUI "add" field accepts wild cards. > > Neither activity sounds like much fun to do once, let alone once a day. If > anyone out there disagrees, contact me. We may just have an opening for you. > Of course you'd have to sign a carpel-tunnel waiver. :-) > > Our only recourse seems to be to use the TCL that came with the AdaMulti to > write a script to perform the manually intensive part for us. I'm not afraid > to do that, just shocked that I have to. I must have missed something. > > -- > T.E.D. > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum We have found it relatively easy to build the "build file" from a shell script (actually within a make file). Then it is a matter of using the "build" command or the GUI to make everything. The only trick is to delete the appropriate build file when its membership should change, or to maintain it through the GUI. Admittedly this is suboptimal, however it is relatively obvious when a new file has not been made part of the build, but is withed by a file that is part of the project. For example, here is the ada and default.bld target from one of our Makefiles: ada: default.bld build -ignore ##---------------------------------------------------------------------- default.bld: @echo "#!build" > default.bld; \ echo "default:" >> default.bld; \ echo " nobuild" >> default.bld; \ echo " :debuglevel=multi" >> default.bld; \ echo " :target=$(GHS_TARGET)" >> default.bld; obj_list=`eval 'ls *.ad?'`; \ for obj in $$obj_list; \ do \ echo "$$obj" >> default.bld; \ echo " Ada" >> default.bld; \ done; adareg *.ad? I realize this is not quite you are looking for. -- Victor Giddings vtg@ois.com Objective Interface Systems ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question 1998-09-29 0:00 ` Victor Giddings @ 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dennison 1998-10-01 0:00 ` Paul English 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dewar 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: dennison @ 1998-09-30 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <victor.giddings-2909982234390001@remote3.ois.com>, victor.giddings@ois.com (Victor Giddings) wrote: > We have found it relatively easy to build the "build file" from a shell > script (actually within a make file). Then it is a matter of using the Remember, we are using WindowsNT. The DOS shell isn't really designed for this kind of activity. What I finaly did do was hobble something together using the improperly installed TCL implementation that came with Tornado and clearcase's "find" command. It wasn't easy, pretty, or perfect, but it only had to be done once. It is now the individual developer's task to maintain the bld files. -- T.E.D. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dennison @ 1998-10-01 0:00 ` Paul English 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Paul English @ 1998-10-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) dennison@telepath.com writes: > In article <victor.giddings-2909982234390001@remote3.ois.com>, > victor.giddings@ois.com (Victor Giddings) wrote: > > > We have found it relatively easy to build the "build file" from a > > shell script (actually within a make file). > > Remember, we are using WindowsNT. The DOS shell isn't really > designed for this kind of activity. I agree, we are using WindowsNT, and avoid using the DOS shell like the plague. I suggest you have a look at the GNU-Win32 Project at http://www.cygnus.com/misc/gnu-win32/. We are successfully using the bash shell and GNU make from this project. Cheers, Paul. -- , , ("\''/").___..--''" -._ Paul English `9_ 9 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.') paul.english@NOSPAM.technologist.com (_Y_.)' ._ ) ._ . ``-..-' Remove NOSPAM. for email address. _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' .' (il).-'' ((i).' ((!.-' ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question 1998-09-29 0:00 ` Victor Giddings 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dennison @ 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dewar @ 1998-09-30 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <victor.giddings-2909982234390001@remote3.ois.com>, victor.giddings@ois.com (Victor Giddings) wrote: > We have found it relatively easy to build the "build file" from a shell > script (actually within a make file). Then it is a matter of using the > "build" command or the GUI to make everything. The only trick is to delete > the appropriate build file when its membership should change, or to > maintain it through the GUI. Admittedly this is suboptimal, however it is > relatively obvious when a new file has not been made part of the build, > but is withed by a file that is part of the project. Yes, you certainly can use make files for Ada programs (we actually build GNAT that way, since we don't want to rely on GNATMAKE for building GNAT itself). The reason this approach works much less well for Ada than for C is because computing the dependencies is difficult in Ada, and because of the use of pragma Inline, the dependencies tend to change more rapidly. Computing the dependencies really requires a compiler, to determine inlining dependencies. There are two problems with conventional Ada 83 library systems with respect to inlining: 1. You have to compile inlined bodies before the client. This means that what inlining you get depends on the order of compilation, and it may be impossible to do mutual inlining between two package bodies. The trouble here is that the effect of getting the ordering wrong (e.g. by not having all the dependencies accurate in the make file) is not a binder inconsistency, but rather just inefficient non-inlined code. 2. Since the order of compilation is strict, you need to know the order of compilation before you can compile, and you need to compile before you can figure out the exact order of compilation. Make tools that work with conventional Ada 83 libraries often have to approximate the dependenceies, and again, if they get the approximation wrong, the penalty may not be a detected inconsistency, but rather inefficiency due to inline failures. The nice thing about the source library structure, used by both GNAT and by Intermetrics (and consequently by Greenhills) is that since there is no required order of compilation, you are not stuck on either point. The GNATMAKE utility works by first compiling the main program to determine its dependencies, and then works its way *down* the dependency tree (i.e. in exactly the opposite order of compilation required by a traditional library system). This means that GNATMAKE can accurately compute the compilation dependencies, including all inlining requirements, as it goes along with no inefficiencies. The same approach should definitely be applicable to systems using the IM front end, since it uses basically the same source based approach as GNAT. We have certainly found gnatmake to be an invaluable tool for GNAT, and indeed in normal usage, it is the ONLY tool used for compilation. Robert Dewar Ada Core Technologies -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question 1998-09-14 0:00 Green Hills Ada library question dennison 1998-09-14 0:00 ` Tucker Taft @ 1998-09-15 0:00 ` bob 1998-09-15 0:00 ` Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) Corey Minyard 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: bob @ 1998-09-15 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) I sympathize with you. We started the same thing about 8 months ago. The system is now mostly working (with many bugs we worked around because Green Hills REFUSED to fix them). The first thing we did was make a directory with symbolic links to the sources (over 1100 Ada packages and C files). This allowed the workers to continue fixing their code without moving things around. Then a test generate of some components (generate a builder file). Then with vi and emacs, fairly quickly hand built a complete filename.bld file, structured as needed. From here on, Multi did its job. We then migrated over time to SCCS control with a build map to a development directory. Believe me, most of our users are disgusted with the Green Hills/Multi system for Ada (they came from a VERDIX/Rational environment), but there was no other available with vxworks targeted to the system we needed. We are seriously thinking of contacting ACT and see if there is a better solution there. If you would like more, no need to air laundry on USER group. bob Raytheon Systems bklungle@ix.netcom.com dennison@telepath.com wrote in article <6tjgph$661$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... > I'm trying to do an initial build of an Ada system we have here using the > Green Hills AdaMulti environment on WindowsNT. Our system currently has 371 > source files scattered over 42 different directories. > > Green Hills tech support claims their system has no automatic build process, > and I will have to go into their IDE and *manually* add all 371 files to a > build file. That file will also have to be *manually* maintained. (Can you > say "error prone"?). They do have an "adareg" command, but no "compile > obsolete adareg'ed units" command. They have the ability to compile obsolete > units that are listed in the build file, but no "put these units in the build > file" command. > > I have more than a little trouble believing all this, as it would be the only > Ada compiler I have ever worked with (out of 8) that lacks some way to > automaticaly build and maintain a system. Can someone else who has worked with > Green Hills tell me how this is done? > > -- > T.E.D. > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-15 0:00 ` bob @ 1998-09-15 0:00 ` Corey Minyard 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dennison 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Corey Minyard @ 1998-09-15 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "bob" <bklungle@junque.com> writes: > Believe me, most of our users are disgusted with the Green Hills/Multi > system > for Ada (they came from a VERDIX/Rational environment), but there was no > other > available with vxworks targeted to the system we needed. We are seriously > thinking > of contacting ACT and see if there is a better solution there. > > If you would like more, no need to air laundry on USER group. > I believe that ACT has announced that they will be supporting VxWorks soon, so you might want to contact them. Also, there is an "unofficial" port, but I have lost the URL for it. But you might want to try it out that way. -- Corey Minyard Internet: minyard@acm.org Work: minyard@nortel.ca UUCP: minyard@wf-rch.cirr.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-15 0:00 ` Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) Corey Minyard @ 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dennison 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: dewarr @ 1998-09-16 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <m2ww75xghj.fsf_-_@wf-rch.cirr.com>, minyard@acm.org wrote: > "bob" <bklungle@junque.com> writes: > > Believe me, most of our users are disgusted with the Green Hills/Multi > > system > > for Ada (they came from a VERDIX/Rational environment), but there was no > > other > > available with vxworks targeted to the system we needed. We are seriously > > thinking > > of contacting ACT and see if there is a better solution there. > > > > If you would like more, no need to air laundry on USER group. > > > > I believe that ACT has announced that they will be supporting VxWorks soon, > so you might want to contact them. Also, there is an "unofficial" port, but > I have lost the URL for it. But you might want to try it out that way. > > -- > Corey Minyard Internet: minyard@acm.org > Work: minyard@nortel.ca UUCP: minyard@wf-rch.cirr.com We are currently supporting VxWorks in a number of configurations, and have several major customers using this technology. For details of GNATWorks (that is the product name for GNAT/VxWorks ports), send mail to sales@gnat.com (USA sales) or sales@act-europe.fr (European sales). Note that major work on the tasking interface and interrupt interface has been done for GNATWorks, as well as significant work on the debugger to get a fully operational remote debugger with our Ada aware GUI. This is 3.11 based GNAT technology. Robert Dewar Ada Core Technologies -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dewarr @ 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dennison 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dennison @ 1998-09-16 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <6tn22q$bk9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote: > We are currently supporting VxWorks in a number of > configurations, and have several major customers using > this technology. For details of GNATWorks (that is the > product name for GNAT/VxWorks ports), send mail to > sales@gnat.com (USA sales) or sales@act-europe.fr > (European sales). If there is a freely-available version somewhere, I'd love to try it out against our Greeen Hills system. If we have to pay for it up front though, I don't think its going to happen. -- T.E.D. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-15 0:00 ` Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) Corey Minyard 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dewarr @ 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-17 0:00 ` dewar 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: dennison @ 1998-09-16 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <m2ww75xghj.fsf_-_@wf-rch.cirr.com>, minyard@acm.org wrote: > "bob" <bklungle@junque.com> writes: > > available with vxworks targeted to the system we needed. We are seriously > > thinking > > of contacting ACT and see if there is a better solution there. > I believe that ACT has announced that they will be supporting VxWorks soon, > so you might want to contact them. Also, there is an "unofficial" port, but > I have lost the URL for it. But you might want to try it out that way. That's a little like saying they will be supporting Unix soon. VxWorks is a (Real-time) OS that has been ported to many different architectures. I doubt a single port would work on more than one of them. -- T.E.D. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dennison @ 1998-09-17 0:00 ` dewar 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: dewar @ 1998-09-17 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <6tmvrf$8pq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dennison@telepath.com wrote: > In article <m2ww75xghj.fsf_-_@wf-rch.cirr.com>, > minyard@acm.org wrote: > > "bob" <bklungle@junque.com> writes: > > > available with vxworks targeted to the system we needed. We are seriously > > > thinking > > > of contacting ACT and see if there is a better solution there. > > I believe that ACT has announced that they will be supporting VxWorks soon, > > so you might want to contact them. Also, there is an "unofficial" port, but > > I have lost the URL for it. But you might want to try it out that way. > > That's a little like saying they will be supporting Unix soon. VxWorks is a > (Real-time) OS that has been ported to many different architectures. I doubt a > single port would work on more than one of them. > > -- > T.E.D. > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum > Actually that is quite wrong. One of the great strengths of VxWorks is that it provides a remarkable degree of architecture independence. ' There are currently five VxWOrks ports of GNAT in use (68K, PPC, MIPS-3000, Alpha, i960). What is remarkable is how much of the code is common between these ports. Robert Dewar Ada Core Technologies -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-17 0:00 ` dewar @ 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-18 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewar 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dennison @ 1998-09-18 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <6ts1bi$vbb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dewar@gnat.com wrote: > In article <6tmvrf$8pq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > dennison@telepath.com wrote: > > That's a little like saying they will be supporting Unix soon. VxWorks is a > > (Real-time) OS that has been ported to many different architectures. I doubt > a > > single port would work on more than one of them. > > Actually that is quite wrong. One of the great strengths of > VxWorks is that it provides a remarkable degree of > architecture independence. > ' > There are currently five VxWOrks ports of GNAT in use > (68K, PPC, MIPS-3000, Alpha, i960). What is remarkable > is how much of the code is common between these ports. Its nice to know that this makes porting somewhat easier. But I note that you still refer to versions on each platform as a "port", which was my point entirely. There is no such thing as "a VxWorks port". There is a 68K VxWorks port, a PPC VxWorks port, etc. What I would need is a PC-clone VxWorks port, which I note isn't in your list. So no, I really wasn't that wrong at all. -- T.E.D. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison @ 1998-09-18 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewar 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen @ 1998-09-18 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) dennison@telepath.com wrote in message >What I would need is a PC-clone VxWorks port, which I note isn't in your list. >So no, I really wasn't that wrong at all. Isn't there some sort of framework (RTEMS) available for GNAT/PC? I seem to remember that it included support for networking with some sort of 3Com network card. As someone on the lunatic fringe I would not be too put off if all that was needed for my platform was to re-implement a driver for a network card. From this you can safely determine that I know preciously little about RTEMS. Linux might be an alternative to wxworks if your demands for real time are not excessive. There is said to be a RT version of Linux, but its quality is unknown to me. OS/2 has some real time facilities which may be useful. There is an OS/2 version of GNAT available and I'm sure that Robert Dewar would be delighted if more customers signed up for that port. The main problem with OS/2 real time may be disk I/O. A book about OS/2 stated that the designed guaranteed response should be within 4 ms when the disk I/O system was working. It is possible to reduce the footprint on the disk of both OS/2 and Linux significantly if one so desires. It should be possible to get a working character based system for each onto a 3,5 inch floppy. Greetings, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-18 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen @ 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dennison @ 1998-09-18 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1558 bytes --] In article <6tts7j$4hk1@news.kvaerner.com>, "Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.no> wrote: > > dennison@telepath.com wrote in message > >What I would need is a PC-clone VxWorks port, which I note isn't in your list. > Linux might be an alternative to wxworks if your demands for real time are not > excessive. There is said to be a RT version of Linux, but its quality is > unknown to me. > They are. We have to be scheduled reliably with minimal jitter at 240Hz, I believe. The point wasn't that I'm looking for a RTOS, though. We are way past that point. We are almost past the point where we can change compilers. I was just wondering who else has tried to build a large system using Green Hills AdaMulti, and how they dealt with the tools. With their tools, there seems to be no way to create scripts to "register" a new system with the library. It has to be done *manualy* with the GUI, or by reverse-engineering their build files and using external tools (like TCL). The only reasonable solution I can see is to create hierarchal levels of build files and maintain them in the revision system with the source code. That makes it the developer's responsibility to maintain the build files. Of course these files have to be created the first time. That means I have to sit down with the mouse and make 42 of these files containing all 371 units. Carpel-tunnel here I come! -- T.E.D. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison @ 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dewarr @ 1998-09-19 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2510 bytes --] In article <6tu9n7$all$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dennison@telepath.com wrote: > In article <6tts7j$4hk1@news.kvaerner.com>, > "Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.no> wrote: > > > > dennison@telepath.com wrote in message > > >What I would need is a PC-clone VxWorks port, which I note isn't in your > list. > > Linux might be an alternative to wxworks if your demands for real time are not > > excessive. There is said to be a RT version of Linux, but its quality is > > unknown to me. > > > > They are. We have to be scheduled reliably with minimal jitter at 240Hz, I > believe. The point wasn't that I'm looking for a RTOS, though. We are way past > that point. We are almost past the point where we can change compilers. I was > just wondering who else has tried to build a large system using Green Hills > AdaMulti, and how they dealt with the tools. > > With their tools, there seems to be no way to create scripts to "register" a > new system with the library. It has to be done *manualy* with the GUI, or by > reverse-engineering their build files and using external tools (like TCL). > The only reasonable solution I can see is to create hierarchal levels of > build files and maintain them in the revision system with the source code. > That makes it the developer's responsibility to maintain the build files. > > Of course these files have to be created the first time. That means I have to > sit down with the mouse and make 42 of these files containing all 371 units. > Carpel-tunnel here I come! > > -- > T.E.D. > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum One interesting question here is whether you need tasking, or whether a minimal runtime system, of the kind that would typically be used in a safety-critical system, would be usable. One approach that some of our customers are exploring is the use of our GNORT (GNAT No Run-Time) technology that provides a subset of Ada which generates absolutely ZERO bytes of runtime. This means that you can simply generate object files and then run them to the bare board using whatever low level toolset is appropriate. One customer for example is using OS/2 as the development environment, and then GNORT for actual delivery to the target system (which is a bare board x86). -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr @ 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-21 0:00 ` dennison 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: dewarr @ 1998-09-19 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2491 bytes --] In article <6tu9n7$all$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dennison@telepath.com wrote: > In article <6tts7j$4hk1@news.kvaerner.com>, > "Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.no> wrote: > > > > dennison@telepath.com wrote in message > > >What I would need is a PC-clone VxWorks port, which I note isn't in your > list. > > Linux might be an alternative to wxworks if your demands for real time are not > > excessive. There is said to be a RT version of Linux, but its quality is > > unknown to me. > > > > They are. We have to be scheduled reliably with minimal jitter at 240Hz, I > believe. The point wasn't that I'm looking for a RTOS, though. We are way past > that point. We are almost past the point where we can change compilers. I was > just wondering who else has tried to build a large system using Green Hills > AdaMulti, and how they dealt with the tools. > > With their tools, there seems to be no way to create scripts to "register" a > new system with the library. It has to be done *manualy* with the GUI, or by > reverse-engineering their build files and using external tools (like TCL). > The only reasonable solution I can see is to create hierarchal levels of > build files and maintain them in the revision system with the source code. > That makes it the developer's responsibility to maintain the build files. > > Of course these files have to be created the first time. That means I have to > sit down with the mouse and make 42 of these files containing all 371 units. > Carpel-tunnel here I come! > > -- > T.E.D. > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum Incidentally: the reason that I said that PC-Clone was a somewhat odd designation for an embedded system is that at the bare board level, PC clones can have substantial differences. These are masked when using some Microsoft OS, since one of the things an OEM does is to provide interfaces for implementation specific aspects of a particular board. So usually you want to be a bit more precise in designating the target if you are building an embedded system. For example, there is no such thing as a completely generic TCP-IP ethernet interface at this level, the details will depend on what particular ethernet card you are using. Robert Dewar -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr @ 1998-09-21 0:00 ` dennison 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dennison @ 1998-09-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <6u0bs4$ebm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote: > In article <6tu9n7$all$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > dennison@telepath.com wrote: > Incidentally: the reason that I said that PC-Clone was a > somewhat odd designation for an embedded system is that > at the bare board level, PC clones can have substantial > differences. These are masked when using some Microsoft > OS, since one of the things an OEM does is to provide > interfaces for implementation specific aspects of a > particular board. > > So usually you want to be a bit more precise in designating > the target if you are building an embedded system. For > example, there is no such thing as a completely generic > TCP-IP ethernet interface at this level, the details will > depend on what particular ethernet card you are using. That is a reasonable point. There is a finite set of (rather common) PC TCP/IP cards that VxWorks supports. We are limiting ourselves to that. I'm not doing the hardware part of the job, but my understanding is that that is the only place we are really constrained. I guess everything else is probably handled through standard BIOS and chipset calls. -- T.E.D. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-18 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison @ 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dewarr @ 1998-09-19 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1973 bytes --] In article <6tts7j$4hk1@news.kvaerner.com>, "Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.no> wrote: > Isn't there some sort of framework (RTEMS) available for GNAT/PC? I seem to > remember that it included support for networking with some sort of 3Com net > network card. The answer to this is yes, you should contact OAR for details > > OS/2 has some real time facilities which may be useful. There is an OS/2 > version of GNAT available and I'm sure that Robert Dewar would be delighted > if more customers signed up for that port. > The main problem with OS/2 real time > may be disk I/O. A book about OS/2 stated that the designed > guaranteed response > should be within 4 ms when > the disk I/O system was working. A couple of quick notes on OS/2 disk I/O. First, right now, you get dramatically improved performance from using HPFS386 if you have a decent sized memory. On my TP770 which has 160megs, the link time for the GNAT compiler itself went from 90 seconds to 5 seconds when I switched to HPFS386. Unfortunately, due as I understand it to licensing difficulties with microsoft, HPFS386 is only available with OS/2 server. HPFS386 has much better interruption characteristics as well. The good news is that there is a completely new journaling file system for OS/2 coming out soon (yes, contrary to the as-usual-totally-uninformed conventional wisdom, OS/2 is alive and well and still being maintained and developed :-) Whether OS/2 or Linux would be suitable for real time use on a bare board embedded PC is dubious. I certainly would find it odd if either of these were really competitive with VxWorks. But perhaps you are right, the application may simply not require this kind of low level low overhead real time executive. A lot of people throw the term "real time" around pretty loosely! -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-18 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen @ 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: dewar @ 1998-09-19 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <6ttoaj$mnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dennison@telepath.com wrote: > In article <6ts1bi$vbb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > dewar@gnat.com wrote: > > In article <6tmvrf$8pq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > > dennison@telepath.com wrote: > > > That's a little like saying they will be supporting Unix soon. VxWorks is a > > > (Real-time) OS that has been ported to many different architectures. I doubt > > a > > > single port would work on more than one of them. > > > > Actually that is quite wrong. One of the great strengths of > > VxWorks is that it provides a remarkable degree of > > architecture independence. > > ' > > There are currently five VxWOrks ports of GNAT in use > > (68K, PPC, MIPS-3000, Alpha, i960). What is remarkable > > is how much of the code is common between these ports. > > Its nice to know that this makes porting somewhat easier. But I note that you > still refer to versions on each platform as a "port", which was my point > entirely. There is no such thing as "a VxWorks port". There is a 68K VxWorks > port, a PPC VxWorks port, etc. > > What I would need is a PC-clone VxWorks port, which I note isn't in your li > list.So no, I really wasn't that wrong at all. > > -- > T.E.D. > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum > No, that is still confused. Yes, of course every separate software product is a separate port. For example, the VMS version for VMS 7.1 and 7.2 is a separate port, at the very least, it needs full QA testing on the new version of the operating system. I am not sure what you mean by a VxWorks port for a PC clone, that's a rather odd designation, makes me think that T.E.D. has not actually worked with VxWorks at all. A more reasonable query would be a port for some particular x86 board, and indeed this is certainly possible. T.E.D. if you are interested in such a product, let us know, and we will be happy to give you a quote. My list certainly did not include all the GNAT ports for VxWorks that we *can* provide, just the ones that we have provided so far. Most certainly embedded applications using VxWorks tend to require more customization than off the shelf native ports. No question about that! We certainly expect to have to provide more specialized support during the installation process for example, which is why we charge more for GNATWorks (the designation for ports of GNAT Professional for VxWorks) than for native ports. Robert Dewar Ada Core Technologies -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1998-10-01 0:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1998-09-14 0:00 Green Hills Ada library question dennison 1998-09-14 0:00 ` Tucker Taft 1998-09-15 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-29 0:00 ` Victor Giddings 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dennison 1998-10-01 0:00 ` Paul English 1998-09-30 0:00 ` dewar 1998-09-15 0:00 ` bob 1998-09-15 0:00 ` Green Hills Ada library question (Ada on VxWorks) Corey Minyard 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-16 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-17 0:00 ` dewar 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-18 0:00 ` Tarjei Tj�stheim Jensen 1998-09-18 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-21 0:00 ` dennison 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewarr 1998-09-19 0:00 ` dewar
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