From: "Dan'l Miller" <optikos@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Ada Successor Language
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 19:58:41 -0700 (PDT)
Date: 2018-06-26T19:58:41-07:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <6aeeb91c-73b5-412e-bef3-8bf45eb94484@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <e7a25d73-5cc9-40a6-8a89-f8d61c5ac53c@googlegroups.com>
On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 9:28:42 PM UTC-5, Dan'l Miller wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 5:03:13 PM UTC-5, Dan'l Miller wrote:
> > Then you are an unable to foresee slicing situations as Bjarne Stroustrup was. Bjarne should not be
> > one's role model as a language designer.
>
> Typo: Then you are /as/ unable to foresee …
>
> Btw, what I am ultimately saying about the compiler automagically what rules say is the correct strong
> type's tag in a given situation (which might differ from what the programmer thought would occur)
> violates a fundamental premise of Ada: source code whose behavior is obvious to human beings. C++
> is the ultimate language for voluminous automagical behavior that has not one iota of overt source code.
> Ada absolutely does not need more of that, or at least in the C++ school of thought.
>
> This comes down to a cognitive dimensions of notations issue. C++ prioritizes automagical
> disembodied-fairies-without-source-code over overt source code, as some sort of variant of
> less-is-more. (C++ has 2 cryptosyntaxes: 1) the symbols on the surface and 2{ the implicit unstated
> automagical disembodied-fairies-without-source-code floating around the programmer as a cloud of
> ghosts in the [compiler-]machine.) Ichbiah's Ada83 is the utmost of ‘The program does exactly what the
> source code overtly states that it does—nothing more, nothing less’.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dimensions_of_notations
>
> 'Class with tags-external-to-untagged-types is a C++-esque automagical
> disembodied-fairy-without-source-code, bringing one of the kinds of crypto syntax #2 into Ada.
> No thank you: we already have one C++; we don't need another one.
Or in a word: homociconicity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity
Ada (especially Ichbiah's Ada83) is vastly closer to the homoiconicity end of the spectrum: what you overtly see in the source code is the program that you get at run-time. Ada95's
1) tagged-records' dispatch,
2) limited nonprivate types,
and
3) controlled types' finalization
are all incremental (but tolerable) steps in the direction of C++'s degree of anti-homoiconicity.
With zeal, C++ flagrantly eschews homoiconicity as homoiconicity would get in the way of many of its vast quantities of automagical implicit incantations
a) that often have absolutely no source-code representation whatsoever
or
b) that have only oblique/cryptic appearance in the source code as steering the direction that the disembodied-fairies-without-source-code fly.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-06-27 2:58 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 212+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-06-02 4:43 Ada Successor Language Shark8
2018-06-02 6:52 ` Luke A. Guest
2018-06-04 2:27 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-04 21:06 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-05 12:31 ` Lucretia
2018-06-02 8:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-02 12:14 ` Mehdi Saada
2018-06-02 12:43 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-03 7:39 ` Safety of user-defined operators (was: Ada Successor Language) G.B.
2018-06-03 7:58 ` Safety of user-defined operators Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-02 12:57 ` Ada Successor Language Luke A. Guest
2018-06-04 21:17 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-02 13:48 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-03 10:01 ` ric.wai88
2018-06-03 13:04 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-03 13:09 ` Shark8
2018-06-03 15:14 ` Lucretia
2018-06-03 15:09 ` Lucretia
2018-06-03 15:14 ` ric.wai88
2018-06-03 15:16 ` Lucretia
2018-06-03 15:22 ` ric.wai88
2018-06-03 15:31 ` Lucretia
2018-06-03 15:41 ` ric.wai88
2018-06-03 15:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-03 16:43 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2018-06-04 5:01 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2018-06-04 7:19 ` Simon Wright
2018-06-04 7:44 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-04 13:53 ` Björn Lundin
2018-06-04 16:54 ` G. B.
2018-06-04 19:37 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-04 22:12 ` G.B.
2018-06-05 7:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-04 13:25 ` Lucretia
2018-06-04 14:08 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-04 14:55 ` Lucretia
2018-06-26 13:58 ` jm.tarrasa
2018-06-26 18:44 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2018-06-03 18:44 ` Björn Lundin
2018-06-03 19:37 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-03 23:56 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-04 0:24 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-04 0:41 ` Ben Bacarisse
2018-06-04 2:01 ` ric.wai88
2018-06-05 16:46 ` Alejandro R. Mosteo
2018-06-06 21:02 ` gautier_niouzes
2018-06-08 10:03 ` Alejandro R. Mosteo
2018-06-04 3:19 ` John Smith
2018-06-04 20:56 ` Mehdi Saada
2018-06-04 21:14 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-05 0:17 ` Shark8
2018-06-05 16:01 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-18 3:31 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-18 6:58 ` Björn Lundin
2018-06-18 12:33 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-18 19:16 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-18 19:28 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-18 20:22 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2018-06-18 20:45 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-18 21:20 ` Shark8
2018-06-18 21:27 ` ric.wai88
2018-06-18 21:51 ` Shark8
2018-06-22 11:14 ` Alejandro R. Mosteo
2018-06-18 22:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-18 22:36 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-19 0:10 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-19 20:32 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-19 20:37 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-20 8:30 ` Marius Amado-Alves
2018-06-19 7:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-19 19:19 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-19 19:30 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-19 19:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-19 20:30 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-20 7:13 ` Simon Wright
2018-06-29 20:11 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-20 7:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-22 11:14 ` Alejandro R. Mosteo
2018-06-23 19:21 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2018-06-24 8:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-24 9:19 ` J-P. Rosen
2018-06-25 7:00 ` briot.emmanuel
2018-06-25 8:23 ` Marius Amado-Alves
2018-06-29 20:20 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-25 8:58 ` Alejandro R. Mosteo
2018-06-25 9:19 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2018-06-25 12:41 ` J-P. Rosen
2018-06-25 14:03 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-25 14:21 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-25 14:44 ` J-P. Rosen
2018-06-25 15:19 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-25 16:21 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-26 7:44 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-26 13:59 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-26 14:05 ` ric.wai88
2018-06-26 15:38 ` Simon Wright
2018-06-26 16:50 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-26 17:25 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-26 18:47 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-26 19:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-26 20:03 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-26 20:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-29 3:11 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-29 3:37 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-29 3:48 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-29 7:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-29 7:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-29 13:25 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-29 17:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-29 19:46 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-29 21:36 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-29 22:21 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-26 21:15 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-27 7:07 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-26 14:17 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-26 14:42 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-26 14:47 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-26 21:01 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-26 22:03 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-27 2:28 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-27 2:58 ` Dan'l Miller [this message]
2018-06-27 7:15 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-27 16:33 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-27 19:11 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-25 18:05 ` J-P. Rosen
2018-06-26 7:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-25 19:32 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-25 19:16 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-25 20:13 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-25 20:52 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-26 7:57 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-26 20:16 ` J-P. Rosen
2018-06-26 20:49 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-26 21:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-29 20:35 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-25 14:18 ` Alejandro R. Mosteo
2018-06-29 20:47 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-29 20:23 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-07-02 9:37 ` Alejandro R. Mosteo
2018-06-29 20:17 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-29 22:11 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-29 22:36 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-30 8:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-19 21:07 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-20 7:33 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-22 11:13 ` Alejandro R. Mosteo
2018-06-22 16:02 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-25 8:20 ` Marius Amado-Alves
2018-06-26 17:20 ` Shark8
2018-06-26 17:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-25 8:21 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-25 9:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-22 15:18 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-22 15:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-19 2:45 ` Shark8
2018-06-19 7:50 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-19 15:35 ` Shark8
2018-06-19 7:35 ` G. B.
2018-06-19 11:36 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-19 15:37 ` Shark8
2018-06-19 17:07 ` G. B.
2018-06-29 20:05 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-29 23:18 ` Shark8
2018-07-03 21:39 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-19 0:20 ` Lucretia
2018-06-19 11:51 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-19 13:54 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-06 9:13 ` Niklas Holsti
2018-06-08 16:28 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-08 16:56 ` Mehdi Saada
2018-06-08 17:33 ` Shark8
2018-06-12 1:51 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-12 15:23 ` Luke A. Guest
2018-06-12 15:44 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-12 17:59 ` Luke A. Guest
2018-06-13 16:03 ` Dan'l Miller
2018-06-13 16:20 ` Luke A. Guest
2018-06-13 18:04 ` G. B.
2018-06-13 5:53 ` Shark8
2018-06-13 6:57 ` Simon Wright
2018-06-13 18:58 ` Shark8
2018-06-13 19:19 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-14 3:19 ` Lucretia
2018-06-14 7:26 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-14 11:25 ` Lucretia
2018-06-14 12:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-15 3:35 ` Lucretia
2018-06-15 7:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-15 16:03 ` Lucretia
2018-06-15 20:50 ` Dennis Lee Bieber
2018-06-15 11:38 ` jm.tarrasa
2018-06-15 12:06 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-15 15:42 ` J-P. Rosen
2018-06-15 17:30 ` Simon Wright
2018-06-15 17:55 ` jm.tarrasa
2018-06-15 19:58 ` Shark8
2018-06-16 7:04 ` Simon Wright
2018-06-16 9:14 ` jm.tarrasa
2018-06-16 10:22 ` Simon Wright
2018-06-16 10:50 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2018-06-16 11:32 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-13 21:15 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-14 3:20 ` Lucretia
2018-06-14 3:27 ` Shark8
2018-06-14 5:17 ` Paul Rubin
2018-06-14 21:00 ` Randy Brukardt
2018-06-15 3:41 ` Lucretia
2018-06-15 7:08 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2018-06-15 7:15 ` Simon Wright
2018-06-14 8:51 ` Marius Amado-Alves
2018-06-08 20:38 ` Mehdi Saada
2018-06-13 5:46 ` Shark8
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