Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[xavier grave]

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The package gnat-glade in Debian has been providing support for Annex E
(the Distributed Systems Annex) since 1999.  With this package, it is
possible to write programs that are distributed over many computers.

I have found a critical bug that makes the version currently in testing
(gnat-glade 2007) unusable for real-world applications.  The problem is
described in detail in [1].  Now that AdaCore has abandoned GLADE in
favour of PolyORB, there will be no solution to this problem.

Therefore, starting in April 2008, I packaged PolyORB 2.3 for
Debian.  During testing, I discovered other problems [2] that make
PolyORB unusable too.  Consequently I decided not to upload the package
to Debian, but to wait for the next release.

After AdaCore released PolyORB 2.4 (as part of GNAT GPL 2008 Edition)
I resumed work but the problems are still there, whether using gnat-4.3
or GNAT GPL 2008 as the compiler [3].

As a consequence, I am sorry to announce that Debian 5.0 "Lenny",
scheduled for release in September 2008, will not support the
Distributed Systems Annex.

I will continue working on PolyORB in Debian as my time allows. If you
think you can help, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. The
packaging scripts are on Ada-France's public monotone server [4,5].
Maybe one day I will be able to integrate a rock-solid PolyORB in some
future version of Debian.

[1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=492100
[2] see thread started by :
http://lists.adacore.com/pipermail/polyorb-users/2008-May/000950.html
[3]
http://lists.adacore.com/pipermail/polyorb-users/2008-June/000984.html
[4] http://www.ada-france.org:8081/branch/changes/org.debian.polyorb
[5] http://www.ada-france.org/article131.html

- -- Xavier Grave (Thanks to Ludovic Brenta for his help on all of this)


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Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Dr. Adrian Wrigley]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:38:56 +0200, xavier grave wrote:

...
> As a consequence, I am sorry to announce that Debian 5.0 "Lenny",
> scheduled for release in September 2008, will not support the
> Distributed Systems Annex.
> 
> I will continue working on PolyORB in Debian as my time allows. If you
> think you can help, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. The
> packaging scripts are on Ada-France's public monotone server [4,5].
> Maybe one day I will be able to integrate a rock-solid PolyORB in some
> future version of Debian.

Thank you very much Xavier, Ludovic and others for your efforts on this!

I use Annex E/GLADE heavily in my (unpublished) financial analysis/stock
trading software.  The early releases of the system worked OK once
you knew of its limitations.  I'm using GNAT GPL 2006 with GLADE, and
that's OK too (but has "issues").  It's been fun and the tools have
shown great promise.  So I am disappointed that it's not become more
popular and better supported.

In these days of distributed systems and multicore processors, running
complex applications, you'd think Annex E support would be universal.
What's happening here?  It doesn't seem to have been used in any
major application (Air Traffic Control, Baggage Handling etc).
Obviously ACT isn't recommending it, but why isn't there customer pull?

From my own perspective, it's not so critical, since what I have works,
and I am moving on to new pastures now anyway.  I had a look at
PolyORB, but that seemed incomplete for DSA when I tried it.
I'll test PolyORB again if I hear of progress with it, if time allows,
but the "market" is telling us something :
"we don't need or want Annex E" :(

Thanks again guys for your heroic efforts.
--
Dr. Adrian Wrigley, Cambridge, UK.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:49:21 GMT, Dr. Adrian Wrigley wrote:

> In these days of distributed systems and multicore processors, running
> complex applications, you'd think Annex E support would be universal.

Well, maybe RPC is too heavy-weight, and problematic for heterogenous
systems. It represents a client-server, synchronous (OK, there is APC too),
peer-to-peer, static architecture. Procedural abstraction (RPC) is both
low-level and expensive. Annex E lacks remote objects, remote types,
agents, routing, time synchronization, abstracted networking hardware
support.

> What's happening here?  It doesn't seem to have been used in any
> major application (Air Traffic Control, Baggage Handling etc).
> Obviously ACT isn't recommending it, but why isn't there customer pull?

For the distributed systems we are designing, we just deploy other
architectures.

And AdaCore seems to look to the other side too:

http://www.adacore.com/2007/12/08/working-with-saab-adacore-and-rti-integrates-support-for-ada-with-dds-compliant-real-time-messaging-middleware/

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Per Sandberg]

Yes.
I would rephrase it to state SAAB has requested RTI to provide 
Ada-bindings for NDDS and that is a fairly thin binding (Quite close to 
OMGs IDL2Ada specefication)

However the cost for NDDS is quite high at the moment we are talking 
about figures in the magnintude of $1000 + runtime per target CPU.

However DDS is a very powerfull tool for data distrubution.

/Per

Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:49:21 GMT, Dr. Adrian Wrigley wrote:
> 
>> In these days of distributed systems and multicore processors, running
>> complex applications, you'd think Annex E support would be universal.
> 
> Well, maybe RPC is too heavy-weight, and problematic for heterogenous
> systems. It represents a client-server, synchronous (OK, there is APC too),
> peer-to-peer, static architecture. Procedural abstraction (RPC) is both
> low-level and expensive. Annex E lacks remote objects, remote types,
> agents, routing, time synchronization, abstracted networking hardware
> support.
> 
>> What's happening here?  It doesn't seem to have been used in any
>> major application (Air Traffic Control, Baggage Handling etc).
>> Obviously ACT isn't recommending it, but why isn't there customer pull?
> 
> For the distributed systems we are designing, we just deploy other
> architectures.
> 
> And AdaCore seems to look to the other side too:
> 
> http://www.adacore.com/2007/12/08/working-with-saab-adacore-and-rti-integrates-support-for-ada-with-dds-compliant-real-time-messaging-middleware/
> 

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Ludovic Brenta]

On Jul 28, 7:49 pm, "Dr. Adrian Wrigley"
<a...@linuxchip.demon.co.uk.uk.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:38:56 +0200, xavier grave wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > As a consequence, I am sorry to announce that Debian 5.0 "Lenny",
> > scheduled for release in September 2008, will not support the
> > Distributed Systems Annex.
>
> > I will continue working on PolyORB in Debian as my time allows. If you
> > think you can help, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. The
> > packaging scripts are on Ada-France's public monotone server [4,5].
> > Maybe one day I will be able to integrate a rock-solid PolyORB in some
> > future version of Debian.
>
> Thank you very much Xavier, Ludovic and others for your efforts on this!
>
> I use Annex E/GLADE heavily in my (unpublished) financial analysis/stock
> trading software.  The early releases of the system worked OK once
> you knew of its limitations.  I'm using GNAT GPL 2006 with GLADE, and
> that's OK too (but has "issues").  It's been fun and the tools have
> shown great promise.  So I am disappointed that it's not become more
> popular and better supported.
>
> In these days of distributed systems and multicore processors, running
> complex applications, you'd think Annex E support would be universal.
> What's happening here?  It doesn't seem to have been used in any
> major application (Air Traffic Control, Baggage Handling etc).

At Eurocontrol CFMU (where I work), the software has been distributed
since before Annex E (or Ada 95) even existed. Moreover, some systems
are written in languages other than Ada. These are two reasons for not
using Annex E in that context. I cannot speak for others, of course.

> Obviously ACT isn't recommending it, but why isn't there customer pull?

I wouldn't go so far as to say AdaCore isn't recommending Annex E.
They've simply switched their implementation from GLADE to PolyORB.
So, AdaCore "obviously" recommend (and commercially support) GNAT Pro
+ PolyORB. I'd be interested in feedback from users of PolyORB for
Annex E, in particular what version of GNAT or GCC they use, since the
problems Xavier found were impedance mismatches between PolyORB, the
compiler and the run-time library.

[...]
> "we don't need or want Annex E" :(

That's what I gather from the fact that Xavier is the only one to my
knowledge interested enough to spend hours upon hours of his time
trying to get Annex E to work. I think that with enough interest (i.e.
man-hours), GCC 4.3 could have been made to work with either GLADE or
PolyORB.

> Thanks again guys for your heroic efforts.

I don't deserve these thanks, so I'll pass them on to Xavier :)

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Sébastien Morand]

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> Therefore, starting in April 2008, I packaged PolyORB 2.3 for
> Debian.  During testing, I discovered other problems [2] that make
> PolyORB unusable too.  Consequently I decided not to upload the package
> to Debian, but to wait for the next release.
> 
> After AdaCore released PolyORB 2.4 (as part of GNAT GPL 2008 Edition)
> I resumed work but the problems are still there, whether using gnat-4.3
> or GNAT GPL 2008 as the compiler [3].
> 
> As a consequence, I am sorry to announce that Debian 5.0 "Lenny",
> scheduled for release in September 2008, will not support the
> Distributed Systems Annex.

It means, It doesn't even work it to give a try compile it under debian?

S�bastien
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Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Ludovic Brenta]

Sébastien Morand wrote:
> Xavier Grave wrote:
> > As a consequence, I am sorry to announce that Debian 5.0 "Lenny",
> > scheduled for release in September 2008, will not support the
> > Distributed Systems Annex.
>
> It means, It doesn't even work it to give a try compile it under debian?

gnat-glade itself compiles (there is a binary package in Debian
testing) but if you try to compile your own distributed programs with
it, you get compiler errors due to version mismatches between compiler
(gnat-4.3), run-time library (libgna-4.3) and libgarlic-dev. These
mismatches are detected by means of the .ali files.

The state of PolyORB is that both PolyORB itself and the distributed
program compile fine, but then the distributed program gives errors at
run time.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[anon]

After modifying GLADE-2007, to compile in GNAT-2008,  I now, have only 
a single problem in compiling one example program, but I also, had the 
same error when I compiled the same example in GLADE-2007 with
GNAT-2007. 

And all partitions that I have adopted to use either 2007 or 2008 GNAT 
system works as expected.

As for Polyorb, the examples work fine. But may not do much more testing,
because Polyorb is too much a JAVA based system for me. 





In <3b572050-4e27-4316-89d3-945333c3ec8e@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:
>S=E9bastien Morand wrote:
>> Xavier Grave wrote:
>> > As a consequence, I am sorry to announce that Debian 5.0 "Lenny",
>> > scheduled for release in September 2008, will not support the
>> > Distributed Systems Annex.
>>
>> It means, It doesn't even work it to give a try compile it under debian?
>
>gnat-glade itself compiles (there is a binary package in Debian
>testing) but if you try to compile your own distributed programs with
>it, you get compiler errors due to version mismatches between compiler
>(gnat-4.3), run-time library (libgna-4.3) and libgarlic-dev. These
>mismatches are detected by means of the .ali files.
>
>The state of PolyORB is that both PolyORB itself and the distributed
>program compile fine, but then the distributed program gives errors at
>run time.
>
>--
>Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

Point of information: Glade has reappeared in GnatPro 6.1.2

I guess this means that there /are/ paying customers who use Annex E...

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
            J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Pascal Obry]

anon a �crit :
> As for Polyorb, the examples work fine. But may not do much more testing,
> because Polyorb is too much a JAVA based system for me. 

PolyORB... Java based... Lot of nonsense there!

It really looks like "anon" is a shared account. Sometime "anon" post 
some interesting messages and sometime it is just nonsense... Sorry 
"anon" but that's really a bad netiquette! You should either post with 
your real name or stop posting stupid messages on this news group.

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|              http://www.obry.net
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Pascal Obry]

anon a �crit :
> As for Polyorb, the examples work fine. But may not do much more testing,
> because Polyorb is too much a JAVA based system for me. 

PolyORB... Java based... Lot of nonsense there!

It really looks like "anon" is a shared account. Sometime "anon" post 
some interesting messages and sometime it is just nonsense... Sorry 
"anon" but that's really a bad netiquette! You should either post with 
your real name or stop posting stupid messages on this news group.

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|              http://www.obry.net
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[anon]

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Do a little research on Polyorb. Start eith this link:

                               http://polyorb.objectweb.org/

Plus, look at the source code.  Too many references to Java to be a simple 
slip or a single routine that was converted. It suggest that the complete code 
was a direct re-write of a JAVA package or a set of routines.  And since 
Polyorb has been around since 1998, the maintainers have had time to edit 
all comments and remove the references but they did not.

One Java reference is one too many.  All comments should be about Ada or 
the origin of the code.  The exception is the "JAVA RMI" sub-system which 
comes directly from JAVA.

Plus, information (emails) from Adacore themselves.


In <4891d98e$0$885$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>, Pascal Obry <pascal@obry.net> writes:
>anon a �crit :
>> As for Polyorb, the examples work fine. But may not do much more testing,
>> because Polyorb is too much a JAVA based system for me. 
>
>PolyORB... Java based... Lot of nonsense there!
>
>It really looks like "anon" is a shared account. Sometime "anon" post 
>some interesting messages and sometime it is just nonsense... Sorry 
>"anon" but that's really a bad netiquette! You should either post with 
>your real name or stop posting stupid messages on this news group.
>
>Pascal.
>
>-- 
>
>--|------------------------------------------------------
>--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
>--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
>--|------------------------------------------------------
>--|              http://www.obry.net
>--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
>--|
>--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

anon a �crit :
> Do a little research on Polyorb. Start eith this link:
> 
>                                http://polyorb.objectweb.org/
> 
Stop the FUD!
I invite everyone here to have a look at the above page. The word "Java" 
appears only twice, in the context of RMI being one possible method of 
distribution.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
            J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Ludovic Brenta]

anon wrote:
> Do a little research on Polyorb. Start eith this link:
>
>                                http://polyorb.objectweb.org/

"anon", once again you just made a fool of yourself. Do a little
research on who you talk to. Not everyone is enough of a coward to
hide their names. Pascal is one of the authors of PolyORB.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Colin Paul Gloster]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008, Pascal Obry wrote:
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"[..]                                                                    |
|                                                                         |
|[..] Sorry "anon" but that's                                             |
|really a bad netiquette! You should either post with your real name [..]"|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

This is not a moderated newsgroup and posting "with" a "real name" is
not a requirement for participation in this newsgroup.

Sincerely,
Colin Collin Paul Gloster

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[anon]

First, since Pascal is one of the authors then why are you and "Xavier 
Grave" having problems with Polyorb. It look like Pascal would help to 
get the Annex-E subsystem up and running. But because of the problem and 
people like Pascal not helping, Xavier made the statements.

 [As a consequence, I am sorry to announce that Debian 5.0 "Lenny",
scheduled for release in September 2008, will not support the
Distributed Systems Annex.]

Which hurt those who may need to use the "Distributed Systems" in Ada

Now, as for JAVA. Did you forget to email Adacore? And ask them, about 
the connection with Java. 

But for now, any time someone talks about "Corba", "Soap", "MOM" and 
"RMI" they are talking about JAVA or "C/c++" not Ada. Even, Microsoft 
who designed "Soap" uses "Soap" to interface .NET to JAVA.  That's what 
I was talking about then I say Polyorb is too much JAVA based. Now, If 
Pascal or others desire Ada to become a powerhouse or at least stay where 
it is, then Pascal and others need to use protocols that is associated 
with Ada not JAVA or Microsoft.  Then use that protocol's routines as a 
super-class and build a set of sub-class protocols called "Corba", 
"Soap", "MOM" and "RMI" that can be added or not as needed, but the RPC 
would still be there with or without the sub-classes. But that's has not 
happen. 


And as you and other here have stated many times. [ GNAT is not Ada, it has 
not been for a long time ]. So why are you just maintaining it. You should 
spend the time to make GNAT the Ada that when a person install it 
preform the right way occurring to the RM without the use of command line 
options. 

Instead of cut some one down with an unusually name, that you may not like.

In <f359be29-420c-480c-ab58-4c8f97138654@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:
>anon wrote:
>> Do a little research on Polyorb. Start eith this link:
>>
>>                                http://polyorb.objectweb.org/
>
>"anon", once again you just made a fool of yourself. Do a little
>research on who you talk to. Not everyone is enough of a coward to
>hide their names. Pascal is one of the authors of PolyORB.
>
>--
>Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Georg Bauhaus]

Perhaps if every Ada program were to communicate with
other programs in Annex E ways only, then the programs
will run in happy solitude, just like this thread, maybe.

By the way, the language's name is Java, just in case
you haven't seen it that often.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Pascal Obry]

Colin Paul Gloster a �crit :
> This is not a moderated newsgroup and posting "with" a "real name" is
> not a requirement for participation in this newsgroup.

Requirement?!? I talked about netiquette.

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|              http://www.obry.net
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Pascal Obry]

anon a �crit :
> First, since Pascal is one of the authors then why are you and "Xavier 
> Grave" having problems with Polyorb. It look like Pascal would help to 
> get the Annex-E subsystem up and running. But because of the problem and 
> people like Pascal not helping, Xavier made the statements.

Pascal is not helping on this one because Pascal needs to sleep some 
times. Looks at the list of my contributions (all Open Source) for the 
Ada community. Then come back with something to share with others 
instead of bugging me!

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|              http://www.obry.net
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Adam Beneschan]

On Aug 1, 10:56 am, Pascal Obry <pas...@obry.net> wrote:

> Pascal is not helping on this one because Pascal needs to sleep some
> times.

Whatever for?  Just consume large quantities of ... well ... Java.  Or
is that JAVA?  Or maybe java?  I'm so confused... I think I'll go back
to sleep now.

                             -- Adam

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Ludovic Brenta]

"anon" had this pearl of wisdom:
> You should
> spend the time to make GNAT the Ada that when a person install it
> preform the right way occurring to the RM without the use of command line
> options.

Thank you, "anon", for telling me what I should do. And pray tell,
what do you think *you* should do?

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[anon]

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You started this with you "cutting" down my reason for not using Polyorb.
And noone should be force to Polyorb if they choose not.

You could of said "explain" or "please explain" but you did not! 
Instead you just so your IQ score to the world.

A lot of people may hate "Corba", or other protocols that is in Polyorb 
it not you fault but since your one of the authors of the Polyorb package 
that gives GNAT Ada uses "Corba" you must understand that you will be 
blame for their distaste in that protocol. And that the way it is for all 
programmers.

And as for my name and email address.  My name could be "Anon", but I'm 
not saying if it is or not. But the email address is fake. Who really cares 
anyway, but for some reason it bugs you. That's your problem not mine.



In <48934e55$0$872$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>, Pascal Obry <pascal@obry.net> writes:
>anon a �crit :
>> First, since Pascal is one of the authors then why are you and "Xavier 
>> Grave" having problems with Polyorb. It look like Pascal would help to 
>> get the Annex-E subsystem up and running. But because of the problem and 
>> people like Pascal not helping, Xavier made the statements.
>
>Pascal is not helping on this one because Pascal needs to sleep some 
>times. Looks at the list of my contributions (all Open Source) for the 
>Ada community. Then come back with something to share with others 
>instead of bugging me!
>
>-- 
>
>--|------------------------------------------------------
>--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
>--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
>--|------------------------------------------------------
>--|              http://www.obry.net
>--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
>--|
>--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Colin Paul Gloster]

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On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Pascal Obry wrote:

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"Colin Paul Gloster a écrit :                                          |
|> This is not a moderated newsgroup and posting "with" a "real name" is|
|> not a requirement for participation in this newsgroup.               |
|                                                                       |
|Requirement?!? I talked about netiquette."                             |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|

Touché.

Regards,
N. C. P. G.

Re: Ada in Debian: dropping support for the Distributed Systems Annex

[Gary Scott]

Colin Paul Gloster wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Pascal Obry wrote:
> 
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |"Colin Paul Gloster a �crit :                                          |
> |> This is not a moderated newsgroup and posting "with" a "real name" is|
> |> not a requirement for participation in this newsgroup.               |
> |                                                                       |
> |Requirement?!? I talked about netiquette."                             |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
> 
> Touch�.
> 
> Regards,
> N. C. P. G.
Wow, this group is starting to look like the OS/2 groups :)

-- 

Gary Scott
mailto:garylscott@sbcglobal dot net

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Support the GNU GFortran Project:  http://gcc.gnu.org/fortran/index.html

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