From: billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu (William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 )
Subject: Re: Ada 9X objectives
Date: 8 Oct 89 17:07:34 GMT [thread overview]
Message-ID: <6699@hubcap.clemson.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 72799@linus.UUCP
From munck@chance.uucp (Robert Munck):
> I think that many of the participants in this discussion thread are
> missing an important point: the Ada effort is NOT primarily concerned
> with the state of the art in programming languages, but rather that
> of large-scale software engineering.
I think otherwise: the effort is not to link Ada with the state
of the art in programming languages, but to link Ada with the
state of the art in software engineering.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> These are two very different things, and it is to be expected that the
> programming language chosen would be different. For example, language
> stability is an important characteristic of this kind of s/w engineering;
> the 10-year language upgrade period is on the same order of magnitude
> (or even a bit low) as the time required for a big software project,
> either DOD or commercial. Ada is intended to reduce life-cycle costs,
> and changing the language every few years would have a large negative
> effect on that.
I see no reason why lengthy projects have to switch languages in
mid-stream UNLESS they think it will help them out. Of course,
given the existence of automatic translation facilities and the
ability to exploit pragma Interface in both directions, this may
in fact be the case.
> What we have here is a failure of communication between research and
> practicality. Universities and commercial research centers have very
> little chance for experience in software projects that require hundreds
> of programmer-years with large geographic and temporal distributions.
> It is quite irrelevant to proclaim the powers of brand-new languages
> until they have been used successfully in such large projects. Has
> Has there been a C++ development of 500,000 lines or more that has
> become a product in some sense and has been widely used? One that
> has been developed by a prime/sub-contractors arrangement of a half-dozen
> companies and passed on to another such group for maintenance? Well,
> Ada can't claim many such either, but it was designed for that
> kind of situation.
The prime/subcontractor arrangement exists only in the realm of
government contracting, and hence it would be unrealistic to expect
an exact parallel in the commercial realm. However, there appears
to be a substantial amount of C++ activity in industry, and some
large products *have* been produced. I'm not sure of the exact
line counts, but a quick query to comp.lang.c++ would undoubtedly
produce all the statistics you can eat.
There are a lot of negative things in C++, and a lot of the good
stuff in Ada is not available in that language. The only two real
advantages C++ can cite are: easy transition for C programmers, and
multiple inheritance. The first is not something we SHOULD worry
about; we don't need to provide C programmers with the ability to
do all their favorite hacks. The second is a real problem, because
the use of multiple inheritance is an important software engineering
mechanism. It reduces the amount of code that must be written, and
increases the speed with which products can be produced.
By incorporating this mechanism into Ada, the sole argument for C++
becomes the unwillingness of C/C++ programmers to give up their
hacking ways, and this is a problem we can successfully address.
Bill Wolfe, wtwolfe@hubcap.clemson.edu
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1989-10-08 17:07 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 36+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1989-09-29 1:59 Ada 9X objectives Bill Wolfe
1989-09-30 16:59 ` ryer
1989-10-02 18:00 ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-02 20:07 ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-02 23:33 ` Translating 83 => 9X (Was: Re: Ada 9X objectives) Ronald Guilmette
1989-10-03 18:14 ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-03 20:02 ` Ronald Guilmette
1989-10-05 1:56 ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-05 20:35 ` John Goodenough
1989-10-06 16:11 ` Ada 9X objectives William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-07 1:27 ` Translating 83 => 9X (Was: Re: Ada 9X objectives) Ronald Guilmette
1989-10-08 16:39 ` Translating 83 => 9X William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-04 18:08 ` Translating 83 => 9X (Was: ryer
1989-10-05 15:29 ` stt
1989-10-08 17:56 ` Modernizing Ada William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-04 13:09 ` Re^2: Ada 9X objectives James E. Cardow
1989-10-04 20:24 ` Ted Dunning
1989-10-05 2:04 ` Ada vs. Scheme William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-06 12:06 ` Re^2: Ada 9X objectives Norman Diamond
1989-10-06 12:50 ` Robert Munck
1989-10-08 17:07 ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 [this message]
1989-10-10 15:00 ` Robert Munck
1989-10-11 14:47 ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-11 18:13 ` Dick Dunn
1989-10-11 22:14 ` Question about Ada expressions Perry Schmidt
1989-10-12 10:56 ` STEPHEN D. STRADER
1989-10-12 12:15 ` Robert Firth
1989-10-12 22:07 ` stt
1989-10-13 14:38 ` horst
1989-10-12 1:11 ` Ada 9X objectives William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
1989-10-13 11:05 ` Markku Sakkinen
1989-10-06 19:00 ` Re^2: " Dick Dunn
1989-10-10 3:26 ` James E. Cardow
1989-10-12 5:09 ` Ada 9X objectives and long development cycles Dick Dunn
1989-10-12 18:16 ` Re^2: Ada 9X objectives Robert Eachus
1989-10-02 21:01 ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847
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